New safety rules

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a RO to say 'if you want to enter this race you must pin your number unfolded on your chest so we can easily read it.' If this means you have to wear a vest then wear one. If you don't want to do that don't enter the race.

If you are going to have a rule you have to be able to enforce it and the best way to do that is to say if you don't comply with the rules you are not in the race and considered a side runner, therefore your name will not appear in the results.

It is hardly a hardship, in bad weather I unzip or lift my top so marshals can see it as most of us do. I think of it as a common courtesy to the people who are giving up their time to do this for us.

Mark -current FRA member

Agreed. For crying out loud it really is easy. I know it might seem pleasantly idiosyncratic and quirky to some to put their number on their shorts and to be somehow keen for it to be, you know, 'their thing' but really, get over yourself and pin the number on your front.

To decide not to participate in a race because you might then appear to be similar to everyone else by having the number on your front, or because it's just too damn inconvenient to unzip a cag or wear a vest is remarkable. I mean, how much do you really love racing if you're prepared not to because of this issue?

I think it's safe to assume that ROs are reasonable people. If they stipulate sticking a number on your front, it would be unreasonable not to do so. If they insist on a pink tutu then ditto (but, as they are reasonable, there is no danger of this!). You might have to change a habit that, in your mind perhaps, sets you apart from the rest of us and/or makes you feel like you're distinctive somehow but you're not really. Everyone in the race is of a mind to take part in this cracking sport so they can't be so bad, so there's no need to stand out from what is already quite a discerning crowd.

In short, this really shouldn't even be an issue guys should it?

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Originally Posted by Henry Porter

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a RO to say 'if you want to enter this race you must pin your number unfolded on your chest so we can easily read it.' If this means you have to wear a vest then wear one. If you don't want to do that don't enter the race.

If you are going to have a rule you have to be able to enforce it and the best way to do that is to say if you don't comply with the rules you are not in the race and considered a side runner, therefore your name will not appear in the results.

It is hardly a hardship, in bad weather I unzip or lift my top so marshals can see it as most of us do. I think of it as a common courtesy to the people who are giving up their time to do this for us.

Mark -current FRA member

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I agree that if you want to race, you need to do what the RO asks, which might very well be based on guidelines from the FRA. So for me it might be put up or don't bother I admit.

That said I think that what you think are easy rules to abide by or otherwise might be influenced by the type of fell race you're entering - long, short, high, low, bad weather or good, lakeland or north york moors? If you think about it, the worst combination of those elements is a long, high, in bad weather crossing high peaks in the Lake District and its in such races that the chances of runners getting lost and/or injured are at their optimum.

Just the sort of race where you might be wearing your waterproof over your number and just the sort of race where you may be wearing a rucksack over your waterproof (or a big bumbag over the waist band of your waterproof) making the lifting of your waterproof to show your chest pinned number not easy at all. Given that waterproof tops are often called upon in fell races but waterproof bottoms much more rarely, I would suggest that a leg pinned number can be a good idea.

In any event in both circumstances the number problem is easily got round by shouting it out to the marshall.

Genius :)

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Originally Posted by Alf

I do enjoy the "spinnaker effect" of having an unfolded, uncrumpled number pinned to my vest. There's been many a time in a race, in a following wind, I have been swept along using this method. If the wind is coming from another direction or the front then I go into "tacking or beating mode" rotating my upper torso to get the best angle for the wind to catch my number and the noise when it does catch tells me I have judged it just right :cool:

So don't mess with your numbers me hearties and make them work for you :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by TheGrump

The FRA is a 'company limited by guarantee' of its members, therefore it could be said the FRA is its membership, not some quango. The FRA committee is elected from the members by the members. It would seem reasonable that the FRA committee seeks to protect the membership it represents by evaluating and improving rules.
The Safety Requirements document was issued in draft form for discussion; how many of the opinions expressed on this forum have been forwarded by email to the document author as requested? Or is this all the usual forum hot air? How many of the posters are actually current FRA members?

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Poor grumps.. try and get over the fact I'm not an FRA member.. go on..

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Originally Posted by TheGrump

The FRA is a 'company limited by guarantee' of its members, therefore it could be said the FRA is its membership, not some quango. The FRA committee is elected from the members by the members. It would seem reasonable that the FRA committee seeks to protect the membership it represents by evaluating and improving rules.
The Safety Requirements document was issued in draft form for discussion; how many of the opinions expressed on this forum have been forwarded by email to the document author as requested? Or is this all the usual forum hot air? How many of the posters are actually current FRA members?

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and I think it's appropriate that it does protect itself. After all we are "stuck" with UKA now and all because the British Athletics Federation didn't protect itself in the 90s and power in the sport generally has drifted away from the sport (AAA, CAU Regions) and is run by 2 unelected quangos funded mainly through central government grants and sponsorship.
Is it any wonder these highly paid execs look up to the paymasters before the look down on the grass roots?

I have to admit that I haven't forwarded any opinions on email.

But having been sought out to engage in some discussions in the past, as well as offering input voluntarily by email away from the forum, I have to say that I am not encouraged to go down the route of email input.
It just seems to fall on deaf ears.

and by the way, the FRA committee is elected by SOME of the members and in seeking to protect it's membership it also has to try and ensure that the sport doesn't become over bureaucratic and get the balance right.

So how many short fell races will have marshalls with FA kits? If a race is FRA insured.. a runner has a heart attack.. marshalls with no first aid kits.. would they be covered?

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Originally Posted by IainR

So how many short fell races will have marshalls with FA kits? If a race is FRA insured.. a runner has a heart attack.. marshalls with no first aid kits.. would they be covered?

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Where does it say this in the doc? I don't remember reading this bit, but I might have missed it.

"When possible race organisers should arrange for the local MRT, Red Cross or St. John’s

Ambulance to be on standby but, as a minimum, organisers MUST ensure that a qualified First Aider
is present at the finish where there should be an easily distinguishable First Aid Post equipped with,
for example, sleeping bags to keep a runner warm in the event of hypothermia"

race marshalls... should carry first aid and sustenance, as appropriate, depending on such factors as the length, severity and remoteness of the event, to help competitors in an emergency"

Surely fell running is already a very safe, well run sport and I think the statistics show that, so why does anything need to change?

First aid kits, well you can remove the safety pins to save weight as the runners all bring their own :-)

All races must end at a pub to ensure adequate re-hydration is at hand especially for long races on hot days.

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Originally Posted by IainR

"When possible race organisers should arrange for the local MRT, Red Cross or St. John’s

Ambulance to be on standby but, as a minimum, organisers MUST ensure that a qualified First Aider
is present at the finish where there should be an easily distinguishable First Aid Post equipped with,
for example, sleeping bags to keep a runner warm in the event of hypothermia"

race marshalls... should carry first aid and sustenance, as appropriate, depending on such factors as the length, severity and remoteness of the event, to help competitors in an emergency"

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I read that as race marshalls should carry first aid if appropriate. Your question was about short fell races. For the majority of these (except obvious exceptions where the marshall is on a high summit etc) I believe it could be reasonably argued that marshalls do not need to have first aid kits.

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Originally Posted by IainR

So how many short fell races will have marshalls with FA kits? If a race is FRA insured.. a runner has a heart attack.. marshalls with no first aid kits.. would they be covered?

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In this scenario a First Aid kit would be of little use. Training would be though.

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Originally Posted by Will_B

In this scenario a First Aid kit would be of little use. Training would be though.

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If a runner has a heart attack/cardiac arrest a First Aid kit would be of no use whatsoever - but as has been said, training would be, as would prompt back up from either full equipped paramedics, or the MRT, depending on the setting; - in the latter case, because of the time involved, a successful outcome is rather less likely.

I know.. tbh a first aid kit is pretty redundant anyway.. you can always cobble something together.. necessity the mother of invention..

Not sure Noel... I read it as first aid kit must be required..

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Originally Posted by IainR

Not sure Noel... I read it as first aid kit must be required..

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but obviously didn't read the preamble:
"(Note. For the avoidance of any doubt: “MUST” is used in an obligatory sense and non-compliance
implies a disciplinary sanction will follow. “Should” is used where the Committee is making a strong
suggestion. It does not just mean “may”.)"

So its in the rules and requirements.. but not a rule... perfectly clear..

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Originally Posted by TheGrump

but obviously didn't read the preamble:
"(Note. For the avoidance of any doubt: “MUST” is used in an obligatory sense and non-compliance
implies a disciplinary sanction will follow. “Should” is used where the Committee is making a strong
suggestion. It does not just mean “may”.)"

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Agreed. In this instance it's a "should" "as appropriate". Which to me implies a sliding scale from "probably won't need to" to "definitely should".

I think this approach is sensible and reflects the range of potential for issues arising. It would be reasonable to expect a marshall on top of Scafell to have some kit. But not someone standing next to a low-lying path in the peak district pointing people over a stile.

yeah.. so its just common sense.. seems strange to have that in.. I think the rules should be very concise.. as it is its a hell of a document.. who's going to read it..

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Originally Posted by IainR

I think the rules should be very concise.. as it is its a hell of a document.. who's going to read it..

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Except from people making minor points on a forum, you mean?

Race organisers briefly (and then in a lot more detail after a tragedy) and then the press, insurers and lawyers.

I know but we all skim it as its such a big document..

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Originally Posted by noel

Agreed. In this instance it's a "should" "as appropriate". Which to me implies a sliding scale from "probably won't need to" to "definitely should".

I think this approach is sensible and reflects the range of potential for issues arising. It would be reasonable to expect a marshall on top of Scafell to have some kit. But not someone standing next to a low-lying path in the peak district pointing people over a stile.

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A point i made to Graham in my email was that the problem races are cat AM, AL, BL. It would be a shame if for short races you still had to have MRT on standby and a first aider present at the funnel. This might be costly, and who wants a costly short race? I think the bulk of the new rules need only apply to the problem categories.

Just because your on scafell doesn't mean you've got anymore chance of an accident there than slipping off a stile at lower level? accidents tend to happen when you least expect them!

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Originally Posted by noel

Agreed. In this instance it's a "should" "as appropriate". Which to me implies a sliding scale from "probably won't need to" to "definitely should".

I think this approach is sensible and reflects the range of potential for issues arising. It would be reasonable to expect a marshall on top of Scafell to have some kit. But not someone standing next to a low-lying path in the peak district pointing people over a stile.

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Just been watching the blisco vid (great vid) notice most of the elite runners running shirtless.

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Originally Posted by Woodzy

Just because your on scafell doesn't mean you've got anymore chance of an accident there than slipping off a stile at lower level? accidents tend to happen when you least expect them!

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That's a good point. But the consequences of a small injury on a mountain top can be that things develop into something more serious. I hope we don't get into a situation where all marshals have to carry first aid kits (or even worse need to be qualified to use them). Some races have loads of marshals, and I hope a sensible approach to considering the risks can be applied.

We don't want to get to the point where marshals have to be qualified, its difficult enough to get people to help out at races as it is without asking people to go on courses or get some certificate or other before they can stand out in the wind and rain to marshal a race.

Lefty/Noel, I think you have just shone a light on the top of a very slippery slope! This year first aid posts. Next year????

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Lefty/Noel, I think you have just shone a light on the top of a very slippery slope! This year first aid posts. Next year????

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Field Hospitals? :rolleyes::D

These numbers on shorts.. a real issue..

From the pro's

http://www.strava.com/pros/1595767

To the not so pro's..

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

Needs to stop... :-)

I've heard a rumour that the new safety rules will specify that "emergency food" has to be a Cadbury's chocolate bar manufactured in the Far East.
It could be a Chinese Wispa!

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Originally Posted by IainR

These numbers on shorts.. a real issue..

From the pro's

http://www.strava.com/pros/1595767



To the not so pro's..

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

Needs to stop... :-)

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I'm here in Chamonix for a couple of weeks and by chance the Tour de Mont Blanc Triail race is on. Watching some of the finishers yesterday from the short race and starters today in the main event I notice that many of the runners wear their numbers pinned to a purpose made belt and I've had a look at the said belts on sale at the trade stands. The numbers, which are quite large are clearly visible when pinned to the belt and although I doubt it will catch on in the UK it seems like a good idea to me. Many of the runners in this event I notice wear expensive kit and it also saves putting safety pins through your best Gore Tex etc. As someone who regularly takes numbers at the end of a fell race finish funnel I can assure everyone that numbers on shorts is a problem and folded numbers an even bigger one. After all
we race to get a place or position so why make it difficult for the officials to correctly place you in the position you finish....it's a no brainer.

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Originally Posted by Lefty

I'm here in Chamonix for a couple of weeks and by chance the Tour de Mont Blanc Triail race is on. Watching some of the finishers yesterday from the short race and starters today in the main event I notice that many of the runners wear their numbers pinned to a purpose made belt and I've had a look at the said belts on sale at the trade stands. The numbers, which are quite large are clearly visible when pinned to the belt and although I doubt it will catch on in the UK it seems like a good idea to me. Many of the runners in this event I notice wear expensive kit and it also saves putting safety pins through your best Gore Tex etc. As someone who regularly takes numbers at the end of a fell race finish funnel I can assure everyone that numbers on shorts is a problem and folded numbers an even bigger one. After all
we race to get a place or position so why make it difficult for the officials to correctly place you in the position you finish....it's a no brainer.

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Its what they use in Triathlons

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Originally Posted by rocksteady

Its what they use in Triathlons

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Cheers.....shows how much I know about Triathlons though !

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Its what they use in Triathlons

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and rather than buying a fancy belt (we are, after all fell runners! :D) you can easily substitute a piece of half-inch elastic held with a safety pin: no holes in your jacket and number nicely visible.....

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Originally Posted by Dave_Mole

and rather than buying a fancy belt (we are, after all fell runners! :D) you can easily substitute a piece of half-inch elastic held with a safety pin: no holes in your jacket and number nicely visible.....

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Elastic!? What's wrong with dry-cured sheep's intestine?! Seems to work a treat! Anyway, we are probably infringing an FRA-patent since the rumour is that the safety sub-committee has included this very high-tech solution (a environmentally friendly number belt) in the updated draft rules.

A speed limit of 20mph driving to events should he brought in...

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Originally Posted by john doe

A speed limit of 20mph driving to events should he brought in...

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I would kindly refer you to the attached 40 page document, in particular clauses 77 - 91, but I also wish to impress on you the consideration that the 16-page document we already have may suffice, unless of course you wish to recommend a suitable cross-reference / link. https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...eed-limits.pdf

"
Speed limits should be evidence-led and se
lf-explaining and seek to reinforce
people's assessment of what is a sa
fe speed to travel. They should
encourage self-compliance.
Speed limits should be seen by drivers as the
maximum rather than a target speed.
Traffic authorities set local speed limit
s in situations where local needs and
conditions suggest a speed limit which is lower than the national speed limit. "

good to see government documents written in English.....

Don't get me started on that. Around here any road where it is safe to drive at the national speed limit has a 50mph restriction, whereas those where it obviously not safe / impossible (now there's a challenge) do not.

Ive heard a rumour that the "winner" of Shelf Moore Fell Race has been disqualified for not wearing the required kit! Interesting if its true :/