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Honestly Richard you should read my posts properly. I didn't call you a racist or a bigot (although I did jokingly call you a Daily Mail reader). What I said was that it was the racist element that carried Brexit over the line which, by implication, means that overall most fair and open minded people wanted to remain and not leave. The racists in the UK (and the racists and sexists in the US) were sizeable enough to hold the deciding vote
I know you didn't call me all those things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Once again a sound bite taken from a post, news story, media source to further your opinion and the one you want everyone to hear. I like to think I listen to both sides of the debate and I see flaws in both camps. Without the full story though it is hard to make an informed decision. I admit I have stopped listening to the BBC news hour as the bias is so far towards the EU it is getting in the way of real decision making for us all. Unless of course you are one of the back benches that you hear throughout Parliament "yep, yeah, oh yes" whenever someone speaks with the opinion they wish to hear. Then shout or should I say grumble loudly whenever the other opinion is voiced so they don't actually hear it. I tend to listen to Al Jazeera World News as I see both sides of the story in one place. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/ If there is an issue I want to find out more about then I look to see what is being debated in Parliament and either watch it or record it to watch at a later time so again I get the undiluted/uncut both sides of the debate (it can be very enlightening and even issues I have strongly agreed with I have changed my mind after hearing both sides) Try it it really is an eye opener and I think you would like it http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcparliament/p...les/2016/11/11Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
What the flip?? One of my interests aside from fell running happens to be historical conflict, all the way from the Peloponnesian War to date. I have a good hundred books and must have 20 books on WW2 alone. In fact my dad fought from D-Day to the end of WW2 with the 43rd (Wessex) Division, a crack unit in the British Army as it turned out, but one that in less than a full year of action had 12,500 casualties including 3,000 dead. That's more than 100% of its starting roll. Don't assume eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTheSweeper
I sentence you to 24hrs in the dickhead lounge.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
Pfftt, already got a life sentence, 24hrs won't make much difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Shaunyshaun likes it in there, Mr B ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Yes, it's underrated i find.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrt
As the Daily Mail/Hate (edit as viewpoint makes appropriate) is such a hot topic
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7413361.html
While you are in the Dickhead lounge. Can you bin any stray copies, you find in there ;)
Couldn't see any.
Just loads of copies of Viz and Top Gear/Clarkson dvds
Glad we've waited to book our holiday http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37951059
Quote:
For the first time in five weeks sterling is worth $1.26, having sunk as low as $1.21 a month ago. That is a rise of about 4%.
Against the euro, the pound has risen by more than 6% over the same period, up from €1.09 to €1.16.
I've been struggling to sum up what I am observing in the popular mood at the moment.
This guy nails it. Sure, its a put up job, but the articulation of the situation is spot on.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/an...b3506b679fcfa4
This goes equally for Brexit camps as it does for US.
[QUOTE=Wheeze;628610]I've been struggling to sum up what I am observing in the popular mood at the moment.
This guy nails it. Sure, its a put up job, but the articulation of the situation is spot on.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/an...b3506b679fcfa4
This goes equally for Brexit camps as it does for US.[/QUOTE} This is actually very good. As you say it's a put up job but it does explain the situation very well. Good find Wheeze.
I agree Wheeze. He talks about the left and I would suggest it's all mainstream politicians as anyone outside of that centre ground is extreme, barmy, bigoted, nasty, fascist, marxist.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
The idea of left and right is a little blurred.
I also know, from postings on this forum and facebook, that there are dozens of people out there reading quietly, who dare not post for fear of being attacked.
So it is left to us few with thicker skins to have a go.
I won't continue the 'debate' Richard (I won that ages ago ;) ) but just scoot back through the posts on here - the forum on the whole is clearly somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun. I thought I made some interesting points but I can't see anybody else obviously supporting me unless support is saying nothing :). On the other hand quite a few of you brexiteers challenged me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
As for the guy in that video, he shouts and swears and makes no points at all. In a nutshell he argues that people should have 'reasoned' with those with right wing views. The whole point both here and in the US is that those supporting the right totally ignored 'reason'
Oh StollyQuote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
If you are feeling unloved then please allow me to say that I always find your posts to be of interest; and I enjoy even more correcting your flawed thinking.
And since I am in an altruistic and magnanimous mood at the moment, may I enquire if there is any particular subject on which you currently feel the need for enlightenment?;)
Yours in support and helpfulness.
Great effort!
8/10 for trolling/direct piss taking, would have been higher but I have a preference for subtlety. Excellent finishing line!
:-) and other appropriate emoticons here
I've always found Jonathan Pie to be a bit of a twonk tbh. Although there does seem to be a solid market for jusy shouting opinions at the internet!
Ahem!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
The woolly one (shaunyshaun) and I do our bit. It might only be, taking the pish out of the Hate Mail readers and the Far/alt right.
Like First world war generals, we are right behind you Stolly. Maybe 50 or 60 miles behind but it's the thought that counts :o
Haha, support duly noted :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrt
As for GB, I think he'd probably had a few snifters. He positively dripped sarcasm though...
If you are of Daily Mail (only for the Pale) right-wing tendencies, please don't watch any of Mr Pie's other rants. It may cause hyperventilation or damage to bile ducts:p
Not a bad effort @ sarcasm, for a silver surfer;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
The guy in the video has one central point, that the centre left has tried to close down the debate for the last 20 years or more, an example of which would be some of the sanctions on debating at student unions. This has lead to the rise of "none of the above" type of electoral support for Farage, Trump, Le Pen and a host of others around Europe, and including really the current Labour leadership here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Your right wing view of forumites is quite strange really as at times, especially around General Elections, I've felt that the forum has been a bastion of socialism.
I think it just goes to underline that the issue of right and left is blurred, and especially on the EU. I know many socialist and communist left wing activists that supported Brexit, as indeed did Corbyn and McDonnell until recently.
Attachment 8582
Here's was a slightly tongue in cheek chart I drew up in a debate a couple of months ago and whilst it was meant to have a humorous side to it, I do believe the U shaped representation of the wings of politics has credibility.
Interesting that the word of the year is "post-truth" - a similar concept is post-debate - opinions matter more than truth; debate is pointless as opinions are fixed.
On your left and right wing point WP, there has been a big move of the working class, poorer vote towards the extreme end of the right (its okay I won't yet call them fascists ;) ). They would've have been core (hardcore?) left wing voters not so long ago. That's where many of the immovable and, never mind the facts, unpersuadable votes for brexit and Trump have come from. Somebody's quote, but I can't remember whose, goes something like 'our ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'* and that's just how I think these people think. Its ironic that Douglas Carswell left the conservatives and joined UKIP just as it jumped its core vote away from right wing ex-tories and concentrated on ultra right wing ex-labour voters.
*Just looked up the quote, it was Isaac Asimov: “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge”
I also think that the government's austerity (as well as shareholder/shareprice driven austerity imposed on big business) has really helped nurture all of this. Government and companies employing and discarding employees at the drop of a hat and dodgy businesses exploiting cheap, largely immigrant driven labour with zero hours and pretend self employed contracts. Added to that government welfare spending also being cut to the bone at the expense, to a huge extent, of very vulnerable people. The austerity policies of Cameron and Osbourne came back big time to bite their bum on brexit.
Edit. I'd no sooner posted that than this story came out on the BBC
Never mind, the right-wing needing thicker skins
Remainers and those to the left of centre, need bulletproof and stabproof vests.
and that's just to protect them from themselvesQuote:
Originally Posted by sbrt
You make some fair points Stolly. Governments of the last 25 years have skewed the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
We now have a situation where an employer can pay two part-timers $150 each £300 is the PAYE bill, but if they pay one full-timer £300 then it costs them £340.
That drives part-time work, zero hours contracts, and it also adds to the welfare bill as the two part-timers will draw more in support than the full-timer.
Governments never create jobs, as they like to pronounce, but they can create an environment and if they took a few small measures:
Flat rate employers NI from £1 upwards at say 10% they would remove the incentive for employers to employ part time workers.
Max 3 months on a zero hours contract then mandatory contract based on average hours of the 3 month period.
Max 10% of workforce on zero hours contracts.
I don't actually think the working class has moved. I think the parties have moved and left them devoid of any representation and that is why we saw firstly the BNP step in and then latterly UKIP here and we see it elsewhere in the western world
Ok, so They took the scissors off me but I am still allowed crayons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
The blue crayons, write bad words.
Potentially some big news
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-on-free-move/
You could argue this is as much to do with the drifting electorate withing the rEU as it is Brexit.Quote:
In comments seen as a significant shift, the German Chancellor suggested that the European Union needs to “discuss further” the rules around freedom of movement.
It's not true and I'll give a good example. Some years ago Stolly was mocking folk on here for discussing politics. He thought the forum a wrong place to discuss serious matters. He even insisted that he never took 'things too seriously,' which became quite amusing when we discovered he was only annoyed with the politics thread because it diverted attention from his own adventure thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Anyway my point is if opinions are fixed Stolly wouldn't be on a politics thread taking things seriously.
'Some years ago' I was trapped in a marriage from hell and really needed cheering up :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
This might cheer you up. Last night I switched the radio on to hear: ...will Trump follow through...
I hadn't noticed he was ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
Quality! Thank you MargQuote:
Originally Posted by Margarine
I've actually had a change of heart today having listened to a debate, which is still ongoing in the Commons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
The debate is about the Parliamentary Constituencies Bill.
The Tories included a manifesto commitment to reduce the number of seats from 650 to 600 and in doing this the Boundary Commission would do it's regular re balancing of the boundaries.
I took the view that this was a good idea. We had now almost double the number of paid representatives, especially in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
I've listened to the debate today about the Pat Glass amendment.
There are 4 points you can see on the link.
The main one I have changed my mind on is the number of MPs and the reasons why are:
1. We are leaving the EU and so there will be more legislation in the Commons to scrutinise and more matters at constituency level for MPs to deal with.
2. The Government, through ministers, PPSs, whips etc and the Opposition Shadows carry a fixed number of appointments. These are eminently more whippable and the 50 reduction would reduce backbench MPs and take away from the more independent minded MPs that are so useful to the operation of the Commons.
Linked to this is also the point that backbench MPs would have a better chance of a "job" and so would be more inclined to toe the line.
3. Select Committees play a key role. There are already vacancies on some committees that cannot be filled. Losing 50 MPs would have a detrimental effect on the select committees.
So it shows me that debate can be useful, as it gives you the opportunity to hear sides of an argument that you have not previously considered.
Interesting points. Thanks for sharing. I hadn't considered these.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I agree, it's great to hear views that make me change my mind. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen very often. That's either because I was right all along, or because I'm too set in my ways. The trouble is in deciding which one - I think we all tend towards believing the former.
https://www.ft.com/content/40d2ede4-...3-bb8207902122
Investigatory Powers Bill went through Parliement this week. Not necesserily a consequence of Brexit but an indicator as to what our government thinks of personal privacy.
Something we'll see more of whilst theres plenty of distraction?