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Here's a question. I went out and did 10 mile today, on the road. I was feeling tired from Welsh 1000 metres race, I felt it was a good idea to go out get some miles in anyway. It wasn't the easiest or fastest 10 miler I've ever done, but it felt like a really good run. Obviously most people, including myself in the past, run 5 or 6 times a week or so, so run on consecutive days and/or tired regularly.
My question for the panel is...what, if anything extra, is a tired 10 miler worth!?
I suffered the same after Boston Marathon ran well, took a day off, flew transatlantic, thought I'd feel refreshed, trained for 42 days straight, around 450 miles of running, raced and felt tired still.. clearly that day off impacted on me.. stupidly took another day off and flew back to the US.. still feeling tired, trained 14 days straight, another 160 miles, still tired.. rest days don't work..
When do you not run tired? I only try to peak for maybe 3 races a year and consistent medicority shows it doesn't help.. I ran 2:44 marathon off a 2 week taper.. and 2:46 off winning a 50 miler the weekend before.. and 2:42 off no rest at at all..
Generally though I think steady 9-10 milers work.. not too slow.. within a minute/90 sec of marathon pace at least.. so low 7 min milings for me, just help build your aerobic base.
I think most fell runners do too few middle distance road runs at a steady pace.. 10-13 milers mid week..
lol You're a mite quicker than I am IainR!! You're mediocrity is my dream speed!! I only really 'peak' for 3-5 races a year, partially due to my work (4 on, 4 off). I'm lucky if I get a good long off-road run once a week so have to get in medium distance road runs. I try and do a medium/long run on my turn around from days to nights. Even off my tiny amounts of training, I do a lot of tired training. A long run in the lakes buggers me!! :o
I would suggest that if you go out and run 10mile on the roads, when your already tired/bit sore from running hard a day or two beforehand, then your wasting your time. 100% sure you are doing more harm than good to your body. You might as well be at home having fun with the wifey ;) Rest is as important as training, the wife is as important as running :P
If you enjoyed it then it was worth doing for that reason alone. We run for pleasure (and the occasional coaster/beer bottle/t shirt) and none of us are making any money out of this game!Quote:
Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy
As far as improving your running performance then, no, it'll achieve nothing. But then a vague '10 mile, on the road' was never going to achieve much anyway, tired or not.
I don't think that's true. Farrah runs 130 mile a week, I suspect many of his 10-15 milers are on tired legs..
With respect Iain; you're not Farah and neither is the OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
Yeah but it does provide benefits, hence why he does it..
The reason I asked was because it actually felt quite good, in a slightly masochistic sort of way. I didnt run it particularly hard and it felt like I'd done a 13-15 miler at steady pace. Also, at present my running is fairly limited i.e. 2-3 times a week or so 3 mile stretches to 10-12 mile steadys to simply be used to running for that distance/time, plus runs in fells of 3-5 hours plus. I think with the amount I do, any run has to be off some benifit. But as people are saying its a matter of degree. I was, to some degree, under the impression that if you ran back to back hard efforts that was benificial and that would be basically running the second day tired to some degree. It seems to be a basic philosophy amongst ultra running.
Exactly at a low manage any additional mileage will help..Quote:
Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy
I really don't get this need to rest excuse.. its an excuse to do nothing.. in reality rest makes little difference.. I ran 57 mins for 10 miles the day after a hard hilly 17 mile trail run. Had I rested I'd have maybe ran 56-56:30..
Far more beneficial is bang a endurance base in.. I don't think a steady 10 miler is a hard session..
I'm tapering.. I'm recovering... its all you seem to hear from some people.. tapering from what? You need to taper from something, not 20 miles week... it just comes across as an excuse not to train..
True, and I agree with you on the low mileage part (a lot of my clubmates think I do high mileage and I only average about 35-40mpw!)Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
However, do you not agree that you should have "easy" days in your training (whatever your mileage) - for some people this could equate to a "rest day" - for example after a hard speed session (or if you use Daniels' ideas after 2 hard back-to-back days), and so you only do an easy, say, 5miles?
For sure.. even the super high mileage kenyans are pretty strict on 1 day a week rest..Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy
I don't but that's due to a number of reasons but get to a point where I need a rest day, but often a steady 4-5 miler will leave me fresh the next day..
.Quote:
I really don't get this need to rest excuse.. its an excuse to do nothing.
Sshh! If Mrs sbrt reads this I will have to cut the grass tomorrow. Phew. Need a rest now.
Joking aside. Respect to all who put in those hard sessions and big mileages.
Running tired is fine, as long as you're not wiped out and/or injured. I usually run everyday if time permits and I generally run as hard or easy as I feel. Works for me
Iain, i think the view that rest days don't work is perhaps more accurately, rest days don't work for you. Much depends upon the individual. I find that they do work (for me), esp when i'm training with a goal in mind and looking to move up a level. I remember training for rounds and marathons and banging out 15-20 days on the bounce and seeing a gradual improvement. I started swapping junk mileage (4-5 miles easy) for rest and stretching (30 boring but useful minutes) and the improvement became more pronounced. Mileage went down to about 45ish from 60 and my road pbs got smashed.
It worked for me, but perhaps my rate of recovery is slower than yours (my running clearly is). The principle, which applies to any athlete of any ability is to measure your runs and know your form, and then to experiment with things until you find out what works for you. You're obviously a fine runner and i think it could be dangerous for you to state blankly that rest days don't work because someone for whom they would might see your form, take that advice and inhibit their progress or worse, get injured.
I didn't say rest days don't work with any seriousness... they do they just need the right setting.. but people here taper of no mileage.. you taper OFF.. so you need to be coming off something for a taper to work.. to be honest I've only seriously tapered once and I as desperate to taper as I'd done a 16 weeks of 75-95 mpw's and was really tired.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Smith
Fell runners don't periodise at all though, well most don't, a good 3-4 month period of steady mileage will set up a nice endurance base for the summer.
I just think you can only expect to feel fresh for a few races a year. If people race 40 times a year they can't expect to get fitter if they rest before and after each race. I only have 5-10 goal races a year, the others, like Kinder Trog, will be done as standard training runs. I'll run them hard but today I'll run 12 miles, cycle 30 miles, but for Wyddfa I'll have 2-3 days off that week.
Once you hit 45-60 miles I think that's different. People are talking about rest days off very low mileage, of less than 20-30 miles. If they are so time constrained then they should run when they can. From 0-~50 miles pw the improvement is pretty much linear, the more you run the quicker you run. From ~ 50ish onwards its different. Some people just can't manage a much higher load, others just don't like the tiredness which comes with higher mileage of 70-90 miles a week.
Don't underestimate the importance of those 60 mile weeks. Yes after you ran them and started resting and training cleverly you got better. That doesn't mean the 60 mpw didn't help, they could be the very reason you were running better afterwards as you would have had the physiological benefit of them.
Your last para makes a good point, but i feel if i'd have done more of those weeks i;d have come a cropper. They did have an impact, that is true.
Right now, with working away and having a toddler i am firmly in the run when i can category. Knowing that i'll only get out 2/3 times a week means that I'm starting to work much harder when i do go out. Even for half an hour in london after a day's work. I'm already starting to notice a difference - so if you have enforced rest days, i suppose the learning is give yourself a session that requires some rest from!
A lot of it is what works for you, trial and error.. some top runners do very low mileage and loads of bike works..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Smith
I find long periods of back breaking high mileage then a few weeks of intensity works. But the problem is I eat way too much when running lots so do race better off lower mileage, mainly as I think I'm healthier on it.. I just eat junk on high mileage.
I am trying to build up the mileages and overall 'time out' again following a 5 month period of injury. I am doing well in getting long sessions in on a Saturday, but my midweek running, including Sunday, is mainly 3-5 20-40 minute fast cross country runs with a fast 5 k thrown in.
Trying to get my mile times down below 6min as well as the endurance back to over 6-8 hours.
I know I need to add some more mileage in midweek so looking at getting up silly early one morning a week to get 60-90 minute run in on the nearby hills. I have tried to do this after work but always get bogged down with family stuff.
I am doing a few PBR and BGR supports at the weekend which normally involves night navigation so I am gettign knackered driving around - but aren't we all
ian, the question the poster asked was, whats the benefit of running 10 miles when you're legs are already tired? The answer is still the same, it is of no benefit.
of course it isn't..Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverand
What do you think marathon training is?
Run 100 mile weeks.. your legs are tired constantly, but you come out of that phase fitter than you went in..
Its all very short term, symptomatic of the now society we live in, resting may help in 5 days time, but not in 5 weeks time. I'm not against rest, but for a young guy one day a week should be enough assuming the usual training loads. Older people, obviously more R and R.
But steady 10 milers, 1 min or so off race pace will really help change your physiology, trim you down, increase you running efficiency. For anyone only running 20-30 miles a week more quality running miles = an improvement in 95% of cases... not 20 min miling fell runs.. they maybe enjoyable but physiological benefit will be minimal compared to a flatter trail run with nice runnable hills.
If we were never tired when we ran how well would we perform? I don't know if it is possible to run completely fresh every time you run.
However surely there are times when you do need to rest when you are on the cusp of illness or injury?
That's always a tough one.. separating general good miling acheyness and injury.. knowing when you are tired from life on top of running of genuinely need to step back.. a HRM may help, but I've never taken it that seriously..Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliveybaby
I've been through a bit of an over-training/virus/f*ck knows what it is episode and I started using a HRM. I used to use one a lot when I was cycling and I'd forgotten how useful they are especially if you're not feeling right.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
I took my resting every morning and at the peak of my problem it was 10 beats higher than normal, the thing is I ignored it and kept training and racing because I thought rest was for soft lads! Needless to say things got worse and now I'm having two weeks off completely and a month off racing!
Last years I was running doubles no problem and racing twice a week, but a combination of stress in life and long Lakeland races proved too much for me. When I come back I'm going to combine my running with quite a bit of cycling and see how it goes.
he isn't talking about running 100 miles a week, how many of us can get anywhere near that!!!! Just an assumption but Im guessing probably less than half that mileage would be a better shout. If someone runs a light 25-30 mile a week, then you might as well wait a few days till the legs are recovered and then really cane the 10miles, like a tempo or fartlek. Anyway none of us are sports scientists, and I don't think even the most renowned sports people have a water tight answer, its all a bit open to conjecture :)Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
In a nut shell why people get injured..trying to cram high intensity into low mileage.. but yeah you are right that's IMO..Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverand
But yeah you do have a good point.. one mans nectar another mans poison and all that.. we all respond from different training plans and loads..
I also think that those of us that come from competitive sports are used to training 5 or 6 days a week and then playing a game. Normally 2-3 games a weekend as a junior, sometimes 4 with junior and senior rugby, school and senior football. I've trained almost every day since the age of about 11 I reckon. It was just drummed into us that that is what you do. I'm not sure I know what untired legs feel like..Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverand
Cheers for all the input! My feeling, despite some views here, is that it really was worthwhile. I enjoyed it and it was a run I wouldnt/couldnt have got in otherwise. Just for information, and to clarify, I only manage a couple of runs a week at present, I just turned 50 and have been running over 30 years. There certainly is a bit of horses-for-courses I guess, but I tend to think as I'm basically looking, at present, to improve/maintain my basic 'endurance' it did a job. I do also do occasional timed runs over 3 mile to work a little on speed, none of which is very scientific I know but I'm fairly sure that every little helps!
sometimes I'll set out on a run with the best of intentions to do something tempo-y or interval-y, but then find that my legs won't cooperate
rather than a) force myself to do what I intended (and not enjoy it/risk injury) or b) write the whole thing off as a bad job, I simply treat it as an opportunity to practice my "ultra shuffle" - the sort of slow "terminal" pace that you get into towards the end of really long runs/days out - this is actually an art in itself, so any practice is welcome
I dont train, i just run as far as i feel like as fast as i want to, on days it suits, probably not doing me that good but life is stressful enough, I have realised i just like getting out and doing things in the hills, wether that be hiking, running or climbingQuote:
Originally Posted by DazTheSlug
Great stuff Fleeter. I run every day and sometimes its a shuffle and sometimes its super (well if not super, quite) fast. Who cares? Its all about being in the hills :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeter
Agree with Fleeter and Stolly, just get out there and run as you feel, if I never ran cos I felt tired, I'd never run at all.
I agree.. tonight I didn't get in from work til gone 8:30 and was in before 9.. I was pissed off.. I did a quick 5 miles a lunch but came home and ran 5.5 miles around llyn padarn with the dog.. the difference in mental freshness was incredible.. I was ragged before hand, afterwards I could sit down and do some work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
I really struggle to understand how people can go 3-4-5 days without a run? Just sanity wise..
I couldn't agree more. I do have days when I don't run but if I ever go more than 2 in a row, I am restless and can feel the effects on my mood. Running sorts my head out, keeps me creative, happy and fit. I know there is a lot of science involved if you want to be an elite runner and training plans are important but I've seen first hand how getting out as often as possible no matter what the weather and how you feel can make huge differences to your fitness and speed and lets face it, why wouldn't you want to spend a part of every day in the fresh air and preferably the hills?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
just cos your training isn't structured and/or you don't know the technical terms, doesn't mean you aren't "training" :wink:
although, like Hes says, at the non-elite end of the spectrum there's a lot to be said for just getting out there most days and racking up the bulk mileage
Anyway, I need to run just to keep the weight down due to all the beer and cake I consume!
When it comes to running tired my opinion is that it's all about how you feel during the run and not before and after. My personal experience of running higher mileage has been of general and persistent tiredness that is alleviated by going for a run. I'm tired, but the run still feels good (at least most of the time). You're going to feel persistently tired running high mileage because, well, that's the point to a certain extent, your body is adapting. There is obviously such a thing as overtraining, but the sign of that in my experience, is not general tiredness but a continuing series of runs that feel bad and a drop of in how well I can run my quality workouts.
Great post..Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManWhoWouldRunFells
I use the saying 'you never regret going for a run'.. you always feel better afterwards and get going during it.. which obviously is not always true.. just almost always
However, almost always.. I do find that after weeks of high (for me) mileage, which is consistently low > mid 90's is I do get really tired..a few times I've set off for a run and literally got 100 yards.. it's only happened twice, and always on the second run of the day, when I just knew I was shattered.. but normally that's been combined with life stress..
But I do think you can almost grow to like that tired feeling from high mileage, which is why its addictive.. mentally it just becomes so much part of your life..
I also wonder how much that comes from the ball sports back ground.. playing football as a keeper or rugby, training sore was normal, you never stopped aching until May.. so you are used to differentiating between that mid>end of season ache and an actual injury..
Those ones are funny! Especially trying to explain why you're back so soon! :oQuote:
Originally Posted by IainR
Interesting (old) thread, I agree with Iain's comment on only properly tapering for a handful of races each year, most 'races' really being hard training sessions.
Also the tongue-in-cheek I tried a rest day and it didn't work!, lol! Early in 2010 I analysed my recovery very closely following races. Then, if I didn't take a day off after a race it really impeded my recovery. And I would usually end up taking a rest day later instead. Recovery's such a strange thing though, different each time.
(FYI: time it took me in 2010 to get back to same form: 4 days+ for a short, 9-10 days for a medium, assuming I stuck to solid training after one day off; quicker recovery might be possible with more days off, but as Iain also mentioned, this will have a negative effect long-term).
Things seem to have changed, especially last year, as I only need days off after the big (important) races. In fact, my day-after training performances tend to be quite good.
ps I took three days off after setting the Flower Scar record last year (wired on coffee) and now they've gone and changed the course on me! Legs were like jelly...