Down to earth with a bump

Why am I so slow! and what can I do about it? Is fell running really so different to cross country. I think the answer may be yes. My first two fell races, Noonstone and the Long Mynd have really brought me back to earth with a bump. I'm not particularly good I know and perhaps a bit over weight, but generally scrape into the top 15 in our local cross country races and can fairly comfortably run under 30 minutes for 5 miles. I didn't expect to be up near the top of the field but found myself struggling just to keep going, especially at the end of the Long Mynd. Is it just a case of practise? certainly though I lost a few places going uphill the whole world was passing me on the descents!.

Welcome to the forums NPH!

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Originally Posted by Nowton Park Harrier

Why am I so slow! and what can I do about it? Is fell running really so different to cross country. I think the answer may be yes. My first two fell races, Noonstone and the Long Mynd have really brought me back to earth with a bump. I'm not particularly good I know and perhaps a bit over weight, but generally scrape into the top 15 in our local cross country races and can fairly comfortably run under 30 minutes for 5 miles. I didn't expect to be up near the top of the field but found myself struggling just to keep going, especially at the end of the Long Mynd. Is it just a case of practise? certainly though I lost a few places going uphill the whole world was passing me on the descents!.

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In some ways its quite encouraging to hear that NPH. Nothing personala all. But I have often wondered how good/resonably good Road/track/X country runners might do at fell. I know from my club Notts AC that fell isnt on the radsr and I think seen as just a discipline for the warn out or not so good. but I have seen and heard about good athletes not transfering their speed to the hills, even the X country experts and finding the skills in descending and pacing the climbs right a new arena for them. i am sure though with perseverence many can adapt. Good luck to you.

NPH you have picked some tough races to launch your fell running. Surely the problem is with stamina - these races are tougher for longer than the events you are used to. I think you'll find your times improve quickly if you stick with it, but I'd enter a few shorter races next if I were you!

Yes, your right I should have started with some B or C graded races. Not sure stamina is the problem. I can quite happily cover 20 miles off road in under two and a half hours around the local parks and fields, and though there are no fells, Suffolk isn't completely flat!. As you say sticking with it is the key. I just think fell running is a completely different sport and not as close to cross country as i had imagined!

nph, as eleanor suggested, you will see your times/placing/proximity to the front tumble if you stick with it, I dont know what the fell racing scene is like daan sarf, but if you can enter plenty of shorter fell races it will help u out no end. I am essentially a road runner/xc runner who prefers racing on the fells, at first i was miles back, after few seasons of practice im not so far back. stick with it and enjoy :)

Wise words there Rev

It is a bit of a shock to the system. A couple of thoughts:

-It's a different sort of running, climbing several thousand feet, descending technique, 3 or 4 or more hours on your feet. These all need specific training.

-Good fell runners have often been at it for decades, just look at the ages of some of the top 25% of the field.

-Races with cut-offs and navigational requirements will weed out the 'fun runner' element of shorter road and XC races in true Darwinian style.

All these will push you backwards in the field from the spot you feel you 'ought' to be in.

wise words from BL there as ever

don't be disheartened NPH, it just makes different physiological demands to other sorts of running - if your legs aren't used to it, that will drain away your reserves of energy, no matter how aerobically fit you are

and 'leg endurance-strength' - to coin a very unscientific term - is something that only comes with time on hills

I more or less only get to run in proper mountains when I race, and while I can cover it up with a certain amount of aerobic fitness and a bit of determination, I always feel totally worn out and damaged towards the end of races and afterwards

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Originally Posted by Nowton Park Harrier

Not sure stamina is the problem. I can quite happily cover 20 miles off road in under two and a half hours around the local parks and fields.....

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Hehe, I think you're expectations were just set too high. Take three pretty classic fell races:

1. Borrowdale - 17 miles and 7,000 ft of climb. 2010 winning time = 2:52 hours. A 4 hour finish would place you 85th out of a field of 346 runners

2. The 3 Peaks - 23.3 miles and 5,300 ft of climb. 2010 winning time = 3:02 hours. A 4 hour finish would place you 119th out of a field of 602

3. The Full Tour of Pendle - 17 miles and 4,800 ft of climb. 2010 winning time = 2:27 hours. A 4 hour finish would place you 246th out of a field of 310

No race is the same and the contrast between Borrowdale and the FTOP is incredible really. Anyone who has run the FTOP would call it a tough race but then you have a bash at Borrowdale...........

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Originally Posted by Stolly

Hehe, I think you're expectations were just set too high. Take three pretty classic fell races:

1. Borrowdale - 17 miles and 7,000 ft of climb. 2010 winning time = 2:52 hours. A 4 hour finish would place you 85th out of a field of 346 runners

2. The 3 Peaks - 23.3 miles and 5,300 ft of climb. 2010 winning time = 3:02 hours. A 4 hour finish would place you 119th out of a field of 602

3. The Full Tour of Pendle - 17 miles and 4,800 ft of climb. 2010 winning time = 2:27 hours. A 4 hour finish would place you 246th out of a field of 310

No race is the same and the contrast between Borrowdale and the FTOP is incredible really. Anyone who has run the FTOP would call it a tough race but then you have a bash at Borrowdale...........

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it also down to your personal style

same 3 races PB's for me

1. 133rd
2. 92nd
3. 29th

As Stolly say 1 and 3 and worlds apart

nph
I think that the big factor is leg strength.
Extended and multiple climbs require alot of it.
Descending quickly requires even more (plus a good deal of skill and confidence)

Good road running technique tends to be a higher cadence, lower strength running style and I think cross country is largely similar.
Fell running however tends to lower cadence higher strength, particularly on a climb, but also on rough/ soft terrain.
climbing and terrain running will tend to demand a longer, but powerful muscle contraction. Running against higher resistance (gravity or soft ground)

Its just very different

Many thanks for all the encouragement and advice. I think the general consensus is that the leg strength i have from cross country is no where near that required for fell running. I will certainly stick at it. Skill and confidence descending is another big factor. I just didn't really appreciate the different demands of Fell and cross country thinking it's just running. It's not it's a completely different discipline.

Third fell race, the Three peaks! Thought i started slowly up Pen-y-ghent 39.52,Ribblehead 1.40 still feeling ok. Up Whernside 2.25 several passed us on the climb but felt i was still going ok. Hit the wind on top of Whernside and the energy just ebbed away. Finished in 4.55, even managed a 30 minute mile! coming down Ingleborough! not helped by deciding to remove a stone from my shoe getting cramp and struggling to get it back on. So back to thinking it's leg strength that's holding me back ?

Well done, both at a successful Three Peaks, and stunning the Forumites into silence!

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Originally Posted by Nowton Park Harrier

even managed a 30 minute mile! coming down Ingleborough! not helped by deciding to remove a stone from my shoe getting cramp and struggling to get it back on.

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Love this post. In what other sport could a 30-minute mile in extremis be met with nods of respect from fellow competitors who know exactly why this was a big achievement. Lovely, inspiring story and my favourite so far from the PPP. Big respect to you.

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Originally Posted by Nowton Park Harrier

Third fell race, the Three peaks! Thought i started slowly up Pen-y-ghent 39.52,Ribblehead 1.40 still feeling ok. Up Whernside 2.25 several passed us on the climb but felt i was still going ok. Hit the wind on top of Whernside and the energy just ebbed away. Finished in 4.55, even managed a 30 minute mile! coming down Ingleborough! not helped by deciding to remove a stone from my shoe getting cramp and struggling to get it back on. So back to thinking it's leg strength that's holding me back ?

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I started off road running and then converted to fell, and also just completed the 3 Peaks in 4.48, so not too dissimilar to you. Here's my tuppence worth:

Road, cross country and fell are completely different sports. On the road I'm fairly fast, I've won a couple of smaller races and can comfortably finish near the top of the field. Fell running is completely different however, as you can see by my 3Ps time I finished much closer to the end of the field!

The more fell running you'll do, the better you'll get! I've been working on it for the past year now and slowly but surely I'm finding the uphills easier and my legs are much more comfortable enduring the rough terrain.

If you're struggling to get out into the hills I always find cycling compliments fell running quite well.

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Originally Posted by Sam Harrison

I started off road running and then converted to fell, and also just completed the 3 Peaks in 4.48, so not too dissimilar to you. Here's my tuppence worth:

Road, cross country and fell are completely different sports. On the road I'm fairly fast,
The more fell running you'll do, the better you'll get! I've been working on it for the past year now and slowly but surely I'm finding the uphills easier and my legs are much more comfortable enduring the rough terrain.

If you're struggling to get out into the hills I always find cycling compliments fell running quite well.

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Sam, it would be interesting to know some of your road times.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Sam, it would be interesting to know some of your road times.

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Apologies for the slow reply, only just noticed yours! Here's a few of my PBs:

1 mile: 4 mins 45 secs
5k: 17 mins
10k: 35 mins 30 secs
Half marathon: 1 hour 25 mins

Doubt I could come anywhere near those times at the moment though, that when I was doing proper speed training (intervals and the like). Have been focusing on fell running recently and as such my road running has slowed right down! The races I've won were a couple of 1 milers and a 4 mile trail race, all with fields around the 100 mark.

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Originally Posted by Sam Harrison

Apologies for the slow reply, only just noticed yours! Here's a few of my PBs:

1 mile: 4 mins 45 secs
5k: 17 mins
10k: 35 mins 30 secs
Half marathon: 1 hour 25 mins

Doubt I could come anywhere near those times at the moment though, that when I was doing proper speed training (intervals and the like). Have been focusing on fell running recently and as such my road running has slowed right down! The races I've won were a couple of 1 milers and a 4 mile trail race, all with fields around the 100 mark.

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Sam, your times suggest a lack of endurance training - you are much faster over the shorter distances. I suspect your "problem" is different from Nowton Park Harrier's.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Sam, your times suggest a lack of endurance training - you are much faster over the shorter distances. I suspect your "problem" is different from Nowton Park Harrier's.

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I think it's probably a combination of things for myself in all honesty. I definitely need more endurance for events like the 3Ps (it was probably a bad example to use), but even on shorter fell races I tend to be at the back of the pack (relative to road races). Either way, there's an easy way to solve it - more training!

I was thinking about it the other day actually, and generally speaking the field of runners in a fell race will be a lot fitter than your average road race. You get complete beginners and people walking at road races, whereas you've got to have at least a little bit of fitness for a fell race. Perhaps that's another reason why I always do better at road races.

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Originally Posted by Sam Harrison

I was thinking about it the other day actually, and generally speaking the field of runners in a fell race will be a lot fitter than your average road race. You get complete beginners and people walking at road races, whereas you've got to have at least a little bit of fitness for a fell race. Perhaps that's another reason why I always do better at road races.

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I've thought the same thing as well and I think it's definitely right.

I've come 30-something-th in a 10k road race with 1000+ entrants (Scarborough), and then 30-something-th in a fell race with 100 entrants (Loughrigg)!

I thought that was brilliant really, the idea of it. Shows how fit these fell runners are!

Leg strength is defo a big issue! I used to cycle a lot more than I do now and did ok in local fell races in North Yorks/Cleveland. 10 years later, less cycling I couldnt understand why I wasnt getting anywhere in Lakes races. Thro the last couple of winters I used cross trainer at work....and 'lo....a big improvement! Still not pulling up trees but doing much much better!

I ran Long Duddon (or should say crawled around) at the weekend. It was my first fell race and it was a rude awakening. I managed okay for the first 3 hours but died over the final hour and half. My issue was a lack of muscular endurance. My heart and lungs felt good. However, my thighs were shot to pieces. The descending was the biggest shock - I could get up the hills okay but on the descents, everyone was over taking me.

From a training perspective how do people gain the endurance? Is it simply a case of training on the terrain you race on? I live on Dartmoor so have access to hills. However, the running in the Lakes is a much higher level.

Finally, how do you get better at descending? I wouldn't ever become a demon descender but would like to be able to keep it up.

To put my background in to perspective, I only started road running last year and my pb for a 10km is 43 minutes and 1.35 for a half marathon. I used to cycle a lot and while never quick, have managed some long distances. Therefore I wouldn't class myself as a good runner but am happy with endurance events.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by cyclemad

I ran Long Duddon (or should say crawled around) at the weekend. It was my first fell race and it was a rude awakening. I managed okay for the first 3 hours but died over the final hour and half. My issue was a lack of muscular endurance. My heart and lungs felt good. However, my thighs were shot to pieces. The descending was the biggest shock - I could get up the hills okay but on the descents, everyone was over taking me.

From a training perspective how do people gain the endurance? Is it simply a case of training on the terrain you race on? I live on Dartmoor so have access to hills. However, the running in the Lakes is a much higher level.

Finally, how do you get better at descending? I wouldn't ever become a demon descender but would like to be able to keep it up.

To put my background in to perspective, I only started road running last year and my pb for a 10km is 43 minutes and 1.35 for a half marathon. I used to cycle a lot and while never quick, have managed some long distances. Therefore I wouldn't class myself as a good runner but am happy with endurance events.

Thanks.

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Cyclemad - your times are very similar to mine, and despite having done a few fell races now I only beat you at Duddon by 7 minutes or so - if it took you 4 and a half hours - so I think for a first fell race you should be pleased. I would expect your thighs to have become very sore during the race and to be painful/weak for quite a few days afterwards. Descending will get better with practice, both in terms of speed and also ability to do it without getting sore during/after. People used to come pouring past me on descents - they still do, but in smaller numbers than they used to. Practise, practise, practise on those Dartmoor hills and you will improve.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

I would expect your thighs to have become very sore during the race and to be painful/weak for quite a few days afterwards.

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Yep, my thighs we aching for days! I spent most of Sunday in bed, absolutely drained with no energy. I raced our club handicap race last night and was 30/seconds a mile slower than my normal pace. I guess there are no short cuts to improving - just training and racing. You couldn't of missed me on Sunday - I had gleaming white compression socks which were splattered in mud by the end. Note to myself - buy black socks - white ones wont stay that way for long!

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Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy

Leg strength is defo a big issue! I used to cycle a lot more than I do now and did ok in local fell races in North Yorks/Cleveland. 10 years later, less cycling I couldnt understand why I wasnt getting anywhere in Lakes races. Thro the last couple of winters I used cross trainer at work....and 'lo....a big improvement! Still not pulling up trees but doing much much better!

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Think Leg strength is the issue but can also add core strength to it as well. Have been doing hills once a fortnight and including hills in my long Sunday run plus building up core stability. Not pulling up trees either but can see some improvement. Ran the James Herriot trail race a category CM and finished closer to the front than back for a change (34th). Obviously very different to category A fell races but nearly 1000ft climb in the first 2 miles and a wicked climb at about 5 1/2. The uphill is still a struggle but wasn't losing a lot of places. The improvement in leg strength made an enormous difference on the last 3 miles which was all downhill. Only got passed once where normally half the field fly by. If like me your a road/ cross country runner who has fallen in love with the hills. I would recommend starting with the shorter easier races and building up. Even with trail races rather than fell. I started by doing the Noonstone, followed by the Long Mynd and then the three Peaks! and nearly lost the will to live. Being average on the road( still running just over 30 mins for 5m miles) doesn't mean you will be average on the fells. You have to build up to it.