No flagging!

I've heard it twice now from the ROs of the last two races i've done that the FRA is discouraging flagging on courses. I actually quite like the idea of this, but i'm not sure that course maps are all that readily available in some cases. Jamie said yesterday that it's leaning more towards marshals at key points and intermittent flagging, if at all, to keep people off 'out of bounds' areas.

If i had bothered to attend the AGM coffee drop-in at Langdale i might have heard about it, i was a bit wet and pissed off so i gave it a miss. I think the forum can provide a valuable map resource here too.

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

I've heard it twice now from the ROs of the last two races i've done that the FRA is discouraging flagging on courses. I actually quite like the idea of this, but i'm not sure that course maps are all that readily available in some cases. Jamie said yesterday that it's leaning more towards marshals at key points and intermittent flagging, if at all, to keep people off 'out of bounds' areas.

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Well if the great and the good on the Executive Committee are considering what is the essence of fell, as distinct from trail or cross-country running or even glorified park runs, then that is surely a good thing?

And if it then takes action to restore the sport to what the founding fathers had it mind 50 years ago when the FRA was formed - then might that not be even better?

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

I've heard it twice now from the ROs of the last two races i've done that the FRA is discouraging flagging on courses. I actually quite like the idea of this, but i'm not sure that course maps are all that readily available in some cases. Jamie said yesterday that it's leaning more towards marshals at key points and intermittent flagging, if at all, to keep people off 'out of bounds' areas.

If i had bothered to attend the AGM coffee drop-in at Langdale i might have heard about it, i was a bit wet and pissed off so i gave it a miss. I think the forum can provide a valuable map resource here too.

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https://fellrunner.org.uk/documents/...ug%202020).pdf

This is the FRA Race Registration and Licensing Policy and, as Graham has rightly said, the intention is to maintain a clear distinction between fell races and largely commercial, fully-flagged, expensive trail races which can lead to problems gaining access permissions. Landowners often do not appreciate the difference and there was a lively discussion following the AGM.

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

Well if the great and the good on the Executive Committee are considering what is the essence of fell, as distinct from trail or cross-country running or even glorified park runs, then that is surely a good thing?

And if it then takes action to restore the sport to what the founding fathers had it mind 50 years ago when the FRA was formed - then might that not be even better?

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I'd say it's a step in the right direction, and i like the mawkishly nostalgic tone of your post, you remind me of a certain castle-dwelling, wand-waving wizard headmaster.

There'll be an uproar when the news hits Facebook.

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

I'd say it's a step in the right direction, and i like the mawkishly nostalgic tone of your post, you remind me of a certain castle-dwelling, wand-waving wizard headmaster.

There'll be an uproar when the news hits Facebook.

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My views on (most of) the people who opine on fell running matters on facebook, from the comfort of their armchairs, are inappropriate for this family-viewable Forum.:)

I have never understood why any body would think that fellrunners need a flagged course and actually see a flagged course as an insult to my capabilities, so well done FRA thats why I pay my subs in the hopes that the true traditions of our sport will be upheld.

I couldn`t give a monkeys what tne feeling is on facebook

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

My views on (most of) the people who opine on fell running matters on facebook, from the comfort of their armchairs, are inappropriate for this family-viewable Forum.:)

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The ex Boss speaks wise words. Age and experience brings wisdom!

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Originally Posted by JohnK

I have never understood why any body would think that fellrunners need a flagged course and actually see a flagged course as an insult to my capabilities, so well done FRA thats why I pay my subs in the hopes that the true traditions of our sport will be upheld.

I couldn`t give a monkeys what tne feeling is on facebook

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Seconded.

But where there are flagged sections ROs please please make it clear if they are compulsory or advisory. Ideally they would only exist where essential to maintain a route through an environmentally sensitive part of a race, in which case I don't have an issue with them.

I think i can see a need for race maps here, as it's not always possible to obtain them beforehand, and if you can get one at registration you may not have adequate time to prepare. I think that as a searchable resource the forum could be useful here, if members were prepared to upload reasonable resolution copies onto race threads. I cartainly don't mind doing this myself, as i have MMap, i can start with Dunnerdale as i know the downloadable map for that is awful.

Race maps are usually very good for running the actual race but less good if you need to navigate a different route back off the hill or provide a grid reference. I prefer to use OS maps bought from charity shops and cut to an appropriate size - including the surrounding area. I mark them up with race notes and grid figures if they aren't already on the area. Then I put them in a decent quality plastic bag and they fold up small and last for years.

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Originally Posted by Mark G

Race maps are usually very good for running the actual race but less good if you need to navigate a different route back off the hill or provide a grid reference. I prefer to use OS maps bought from charity shops and cut to an appropriate size - including the surrounding area. I mark them up with race notes and grid figures if they aren't already on the area. Then I put them in a decent quality plastic bag and they fold up small and last for years.

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I definitely agree that I want my race route marked on an OS map, with all the surrounding detail. My preference is to print off a rectangle of OS 1:25000 map from streetmap.co.uk, and mark the route on that. It is then at larger than 1:25000 scale, which is probably of benefit to me, since I am not in the habit of putting my reading glasses in my bumbag when racing!

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Originally Posted by Mark G

Race maps are usually very good for running the actual race but less good if you need to navigate a different route back off the hill or provide a grid reference. I prefer to use OS maps bought from charity shops and cut to an appropriate size - including the surrounding area. I mark them up with race notes and grid figures if they aren't already on the area. Then I put them in a decent quality plastic bag and they fold up small and last for years.

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Yes. I find making the map part of the fun of it all. It helps that I like maps. It as the added benefit of helping me remember/visualise the route as well. Somehow going through the process of marking up check points and drawing my intended route helps the information to stick in my brain better than if I just read it off a pre made map.

Good tip to pick up maps for this purpose from charity shops!

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Originally Posted by JohnK

I have never understood why any body would think that fellrunners need a flagged course and actually see a flagged course as an insult to my capabilities

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I once did a race without provision of any route map (or much else) and the RO said that if we didn't know where we were going we should follow - named a runner - because he was going to win it again.

I supposed that the subtext was that if you couldn't keep the - named runner - in sight then you were too slow and shouldn't really be on the start line anyway.

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

I once did a race without provision of any route map (or much else) and the RO said that if we didn't know where we were going we should follow - named a runner - because he was going to win it again.

I supposed that the subtext was that if you couldn't keep the - named runner - in sight then you were too slow and shouldn't really be on the start line anyway.

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Well you proved you ability;)

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

I once did a race without provision of any route map (or much else) and the RO said that if we didn't know where we were going we should follow - named a runner - because he was going to win it again.

I supposed that the subtext was that if you couldn't keep the - named runner - in sight then you were too slow and shouldn't really be on the start line anyway.

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And did you win it again Graham?

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

I once did a race without provision of any route map (or much else) and the RO said that if we didn't know where we were going we should follow - named a runner - because he was going to win it again.

I supposed that the subtext was that if you couldn't keep the - named runner - in sight then you were too slow and shouldn't really be on the start line anyway.

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Bedlamite race?

The one place I would suggest flagging ism useful - aside form the already mentioned sensitive areas - is within forests. Forestry work, mountain bike tracks popping up etc. - always happen much faster than maps are updated (and forest track mapping can be dubious anyway). Providing fair competition that in these cases the map often can't provide

An excellent example is often the Northern Irish leg of the British championships where they fully tape the descent back to Donard Park from the fell gate, often throwing in a few natural objects to negotiate.

Sometimes a bit of flagging might be necessary where a specific turn or route needs to be taken. Out of bounds areas should be indicated at race registration so that competitors can mark up their maps appropriately....I still have my OS map of Carneddau marked up with crossed out sectors indicating out of bounds on the Welsh 1000 metres race. Yet another reason to keep paper maps!

Runners used to follow Graham for the first 200 metres....

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

Bedlamite race?

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Originally Posted by brett

Runners used to follow Graham for the first 200 metres....

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until I started...flagging.:)

On the fell races I put on. they are flagged because we get a lot of cross-over with trail and fell runners. I always state the route is partialy flagged though in case someone misses a flag and then says its our fault....

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Originally Posted by dnf

On the fell races I put on. they are flagged because we get a lot of cross-over with trail and fell runners. I always state the route is partialy flagged though in case someone misses a flag and then says its our fault....

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Reminds me of the Moel y Parc race, part of the Caerwys village fete in 1989. The Clwydian Hills aren't very high, but the cloud base was down to about 1000ft. The 10-mile route was mostly on obvious paths, but the final descent off Moel y Parc to the A541 was flagged. Unfortunately the distance between flags was greater than the visibility in the clag. It is possible that someone among the 20 runners took the correct route following the flags, but most of us just ended up finding our own route off the hill, looking for gaps in walls and hedges. Apparently there was one road-runner who was really p****d off with the RO, but the rest of us just took it as part of the fun of fell running.

My favourite "flagging" story:

In August 2004 I was FRA International Selection Chairman and organised the World Junior Uphill Trophy Trial from Braithwaite up Grisedale Pike (2593 feet) to select junior runners to travel to Sauze d'Oulx (Italy.) To replicate the race distance a flagged loop was arranged after the Pike so runners would run past the Pike and loop left to finish back at the Pike.

I had started the race from Braithwaite and my support team had done the flagging and were taking finish details. We were communicating by FRA radios

During the morning and after the flags had been set out some clag descended.

The two front runners arrived "neck and neck" at the Pike but were so intent on winning the trial that they missed the flagged loop and carried along the path towards Hopehill Head and the West. Allegedly this caused some initial amusement amongst the parents at the Pike and all the other slower runners arrived safely, including Ricky Lightfoot in 3rd place.

However time raced on and so did the two front runners until they asked some walkers where Grisedale Pike was to be told to go back the way they had come. By this time at Race HQ in Braithwaite I was receiving panicking messages from the Pike demanding I call out Mountain Rescue. Eventually the two front runners returned along the path to the Pike and were recorded as DNF.

So in the context of this thread - unless flags are fully taped there is no such thing as reliable flagging.

As for the selection process? The team to travel to Italy was 4 runners so we selected the first two to finish (so rejecting Ricky Lightfoot, prompting a formal complaint from his club) plus the two fastest runners who had gone walkabout.

Their names were Andy Ellis and Alistair Brownlee.

Poor Ricky. He seems to have got over it pretty well to be fair.

Wasn't there an instance of some local kids moving all the flags in a race a few years ago?

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Originally Posted by noel

Poor Ricky. He seems to have got over it pretty well to be fair.

Wasn't there an instance of some local kids moving all the flags in a race a few years ago?

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I think it has also been very big kids who objected to a fell race taking place.

Just as people complain to Leeds City Council for allowing West Yorkshire XC races in Nunroyd Park, Guiseley once a year, making the grass muddy - where they walk (their dogs)!!

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Originally Posted by noel

Wasn't there an instance of some local kids moving all the flags in a race a few years ago?

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Kids of all sizes removing flags is not too bad, but is a bit lacking in imagination.
Much more entertaining is when they move them (as you implied Noel) and lay a new trail to send runners in a completely different direction... as I remember from one of Allan Greenwood's races many years ago.