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Ive just entered Edinburgh marathon, on 23 may. Whats people opinions on doing long training runs for a marathon, off road? Say for example if all or most of my 2-3 hour runs were done on the moors or hills would this help or hinder my marathon prep? I prefer training off road, and as long as I do my speed work on the road do you reckon I'll be able to do the marathon without doing more than 1 or 2 'long' road runs? Thanks for any thoughts on this :)
Did London using mostly offroad races and runs, did okayish, lacked the speed work to be honest.
I'm no expert, and it depends on what your goal is in the Edinburgh marathon, and I'm not really sure what the course profile is like at Edinburgh (is that the one with the long downhill at the start?), but I think there comes a time when your training needs to be 'race-specific'. I'd recommend doing more than 1 or 2 long road runs on the flat (the last 4 or 5 long runs?), as you need to get your legs used to pounding away on tarmac for several hours if nothing else.
I think you'll struggle. I generally train on the fells but do the odd long road race, 2 100K's last year, and a few marathons etc. I find that if I don't do the road miles my quads just get too damaged from the pounding. The fitness can be there but I reckon you need to condition your body to the pounding the road does to it.
Don't say that! I've got a Half in 2 weeks - have barely run on the roads in ages ...mind you I reckon a Marathon is way more than twice a Half ;-)
TBH i reckon it depends on your aspirations for the road marathon, if you want a good time then your training needs to be race speciefic.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverand
From my own experience off road running/training, screwed up my road marathon times, didn`t matter though as i now find road running to be pretty uninspiring, and injury inducing.
Good luck.
Worked okay for me last year in the build up to Nottingham, lots of LDWA style events at the weekends for my long runs, with a couple of short evening fell races each week as speed work.
On top of the above I was doing several lunch time runs on hard surfaces, up to about an hour. Nothing over an hour on the roads, but I do come from more of a road background so am used to being able to survive the pounding, and usually I would recommend a good amount of specific, ie road, training.
I remember getting nervous about not pushing myself on the roads at all, and did the Chesterfield 10 road race a fortnight before to settle those nerves. That went well, as did the marathon with a small PB. Whether I could have performed better on more road training who can say, but I know I enjoyed it a lot more and was more inclined to get out and do the training in the first place.
Well im hoping to put a decent time down, so ye im taking it seriously. Dont know a great deal about the course profile other than its 'flat and fast' apparently :cool: Im going to run the 3 peaks a month before hand and this I imagine will be my longest run, atleast time wise :cool: A couple of halfs in the spring and maybe a couple of tarmac 20 milers and I think that may just be it, aside from a few long moors runs and lots of speed work on the promenade, sub 2hr45 hopefully, we'll see how it goes ;)
You'll find Andi Jones, Gaz Raven, Dave Norman and a fair few more sub 2.20 marathon guys do the majority of their training off road on moor land and fells. If its good enough for them boys then its good enough for me. Balance it out by doing some road races in the build up, a good half will help you adjust to the road.
Yes, but I'd imagine they'd do more than 1 or 2 road runs, like the reverend is planning?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Courteener
He could be Ok. TBH I think it'll affect him more afterwards as much as anything, with more conditioning from road running I don't think you get as smashed up.
I think you r spot on there iain, did 2hours on the road the other day and I was proper beat up afterwards, due to having not much road running in my legs of late, think im gonna have to add a few more long road runs to my training to 'condition' my legs :eek:
The advice that I got from the road running guys when I did the GNR in 2006 was to switch from off road to road in the couple of months leading up to the event. Basically to get your body used to covering the distance on tarmac, so to speak.
I didn't start running until I was 54 so have done most of my running over fields and fells to protect my old legs. Nearly all my marathon training was done off-road, my long runs being from Hebden to the top of Great Whernside and back, around 18 miles. Speedwork was in the form of 10K races and X-Country races with a couple of road races of 10 miles and a 14 miles (Dentdale Run) nearer the time of the marathon. I only ran on tarmac when racing.
It proved ideal training for me and certainly didn't mash my legs up in London although I was 60 years old by then. A week after London I was able to run the 3 Peaks with no problems, and was flying in both races.
Cheers!
Aiming for 2:45 as you are, I would suggest you need to base your training primarily on tarmac. A fell race of 5-8 miles on a Saturday is ideal if doing long slow run on a Sunday though - so there is scope to enjoy the fells as you pound the black stuff most other days.
I am at a very similar level (aiming for sub 2:45 in London) and have ran all of my long runs since xmas on road. I do often go offroad for my easy days and this weekend I am doing 22miles up the fells. I expect to be on the fells for at least 3-4 hrs and dont expect it to tire me beyond the next day, whereas last weekend I ran 26miles in sub 3hrs on road and was (still am) very heavy legged a few days later. However, I get immense confidence from completing known distances on road within my target times.
There is something to be said for fellrunning in a marathon schedule - but ideally as a diversion for the mind and a rest for a battered body and legs amidst a tough road based routine.
Historically, I've been a road runner who's used off-road running for stamina work and relaxation (fell running is just much more fun and low key than road work). I did about 30 road marathons with a PB of 2:30 and 12 others under 2:40.
Off-road running will give you lots of endurance background and will usually avoid the injuries that high mileage road running can induce. You'll also recover more quickly. What you won't get is road speed or used to pounding tarmac. So, I'd say you'll need quite a few fast ten milers and half marathons in your preparation and say 2 or 3 20 mile training runs on the road to convert your off road stamina into a sustainable marathon pace. Your target of 2:45 implies a mile pace of about 6:20. You won't get there from bimbling over the fells at 8 or 9 mins a mile without specific fast road training.
Good luck.
PS. You will probably still feel the effects of the 3 Peaks at Edinburgh. I only once ever raced 2 marathons within 4 weeks of each other and said I'd never do it again. Suppose it depends if you're racing the 3 Peaks or using it as a long training run.
As you'll see from my previous post I ran the London Marathon and 3 Peaks with only one week in between, having done all my training on the fells. I was RACING both, and won the MV60 category in both, not using one as a training run. Compared with running the fells the roads of London were a doddle. The fells developed strength and stamina to the extent that London took nothing out of my legs at all. But the Peaks did. I don't think I could have run London quite so fast if I'd run the Peaks first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad
Cheers!
Congratulations.
I can only speak from my own experiences, though I've done some marathon coaching too.
What times did you do, by the way? Was it 2005?
It was in 1993 (I'm coming up 78 now, but still running) and my times were nowhere near as good as yours: 2.54.18 for London and 4.09.27 for the Peaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad
I tried to repeat the double in 1995, winning London in 2.53.04 but could only come second (to the incredible Laurence Sullivan) in the Peaks in 3.50.44
Again, for this second attempt at the double, all my training was done off-road, mainly on the fells, only running on tarmac for preliminary sharpening races, mainly 10K's to gain a higher cruising speed. My old legs have never liked too much tarmac though I appreciate you young 'uns are probably less likely to get injured on it.
Very impressive stuff. Wonder what you'd have done if you'd started 35 years earlier. What line of work or past-times were you in before (cycling?).
I'd hope you'd agree though, that yours is a pretty exceptional and unorthodox approach. And I see you used 10km road races as 'sharpeners'.
Better marathon runners than I used to emphasise the need to train for a fast 10 mile road time to carry over into the marathon.
Funnily enough I hit my peak betwen 1984 and 1992, so we probably crossed paths somewhere.
Actually on second thoughts, and this will make you laugh, I ran my first marathon at Harlow in 1980 aged 22. I'd been running cross country for 18 months only (medically excused sport at school because of a hole in the heart) and had never run more than 10 miles in my life in racing or training. I sent off my 30p cheque and started with a couple of blokes at a steady pace. I finished in 2:53.
Don't do this at home, dear reader.
PS. I'm doing my first PPP next month and would be very happy with anything near 4 hours.
Came from a background of mountaineering and Munro-bagging - so good strength and stamina. Just had to work on the speed. Did you ever run the Pennine marathon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad
Not that one, I was running for the Army, so lots of exotic ones like Berlin, Hong Kong, Rotterdam, Yakima and, err, RAF Swinderby in Lincs. Did the Lyke Wake in 1992 in 5:56 but then spent alot of 1993 in Bosnia and I lost my racing form.
Apologies to the Reverand/Reverend for hijacking your thread. Hope there's something of value for you in my ramblings.
Interesting reading :) Well my training so far has been in fits and starts, as im carrying an injury that sometimes prevents me running for a couple of days, so consequently missed a few big runs, which is a bit worrying :eek: doing lots of speed sessions and have ran a couple of halfs/ 10 milers in the last month or so . So I know i am upto running 6 min miles for 13 but the distance beyond is an unknown!! April will have to include 2 or 3 20milers to give me confidence I can run that far, if nothing else lol! My racing schedule is pretty busy over the next month and i have realised it is hard to marathon train and race well, at the same time, as something has to give!!
Happy to advise if you wish. I'd need to know what your longest run on the road is and at what pace.
The old sayings will still hold true, I imagine, depending on the depth of your training.
-On your first marathon, in terms of mental effort, half way is about the 20 mile point.
-For every 1 min you gain in the first 20 miles by running too fast, you'll lose at least 3 in the last 6.
I never quite got the pacing right. At my best I sailed to 25 miles and then gritted my teeth, at worst I was suffering by 20.
Thanks Brotherton, I am in this kind of shape - My longest road run so far was 13 mile, in about 122. I raced a ten miler 3 weeks ago and did 5815. The longest time spent on my feet so far has been 1hr 35mins, in a fell race I did at the weekend. I did mile intervals last night and knocked out 6 at 530-40 pace, off 90sec recovery. I have a 20 mile road run pencilled in for sunday, and a 10k on good friday, where I imagine I will run 34:30-35:00. The marathon I am running is on 23rd may, so I am going to do 3 long runs in April and then the Keswick Half on May3rd, then taking it easy ish. Does this sound like a decent plan of action 2 u? Thanks for any advice
Looks feasible. You've certainly done enough speed work for your 2:45 target, but you're short on the long slow distance for which you still have time. The key will lie in those three 20 milers (say 2 hours 15 or 20). I'd probably also want to do a couple of mid-week 15 milers as well in about 1:45. Then halve the mileage in the final week. You should feel itching to get out and run, but it's better to rest and eat.
I always trained dry, ie no water even on 20 mile runs, then drank on the actual race. I'm not recommending that for you, it just happened to suit me. I felt that if I could run 20 in under 2 hours without water then the extra 6 miles in the race itself with water would be no more difficult.
....reads like a typical eee-by-gum-four yorkshiremen sketch. "You were lucky, we had to run sub 2:15 marathons off no training and be back int mine by breakfast". Rev, you need some proper advise which is specific to you and your needs, not some ol' folklore stuff which pre-dates the ark.
The noun is advice, Delboy.
Thanks “Lad”; always happy to be advised by one so quick with his advice and so learned in his opinions (or should that be onions?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad
DelRoy
now now lads. Oh dear my marathon training is now in tatters, or feels like it :( raced 10k on friday and got a shade over 35mins in windy conditions, so that was what I expected, but couldnt get warm after the race and developed a chill, by the evening I was a slave to the toilet :eek: and spent the remainder of the weekend laid up and not eating, I therefore missed my planned long run :mad: I haven't been able to eat a proper meal yet, although today I feel as if im about better. I haven't ran since Friday though and dont think i'll be able to run atleast until the weekend, were if possible I will race the Gisb moors 12 mile fell race.
Im worried I haven't got time to cram my long runs in now :confused:
Sorry to hear that. Best get it out of your system first.
5 or 6 days enforced rest isn't necessarily a bad thing at this stage, but you have to write off the lost time and try not to over-compensate once you're running again, because there's every chance of falling ill again otherwise.
Your main aim should be to finish the event in good order, your time is secondary. Hope it clears up soon.
Hope you're feeling better by now. Having just read this my concern would be that you are focussing on fell races rather than long runs on the road when you're quite close to your race. This was probably OK earlier on.
If you were only entering the marathon for fun that would be OK but with an ambitious target time you need some event specific training. There's a big difference between the steady pace needed on the road and the ups and downs of off road running even along paths.
This comes from a fell runner who ran his first road marathon last year and enjoyed it.
6 weeks to the marathon now :rolleyes: I ran the Guisb moors race on sunday, and did ok in 94mins, so if nothing else I felt this was a decent training run and it restored a bit of confidence after 8 days enforced abscence. Ran 10 miles on the road last night, running easily and getting round quite effortlessly in 68mins, tonight im going on the treadmill for some interval training, then Thursday doing 15 steady and sunday 20 odd. I will be running my marathon on the back of only two 20+runs, but plenty off 13-16 milers so im still hopeful of doing ok, we will see :eek:
Have you been able to keep up the training? The thread's been quiet for a fortnight.
ye had a good fortnights training, 3 runs of 16 - 19 mile have given me confidence I can run the distance. Did 5k on the track yesterday in 16:30 so still got some speed in the legs too! Doing a 6mile fell race 2moro, then a long run tuesday and sunday. Ive started running home from work for my longish runs as I can easily add extra distance onto them, this is proving ideal. Barely 3 weeks to the marathon, im thinking that due to my pretty erratic and interupted training earlier on, that I wont really need to add much of a taper into my plan of action! Just take it fairly easy in the week or so leading upto the event :)
Sounds like it's going well. I really wouldn't worry about the interruption, the rest may have done you good. A taper is still a good idea in the last 8 days or so, avoid the temptation to 'do' the race the week before. I'd generally run about 15 miles the weekend before, then all my other runs would be less than 8 miles, so that in the final week the marathon was about half that week's total mileage. Have you considered track reps such as 3 x 5000m (say 17 mins 30 secs with a 5 min recovery) which would give you leg pace and stride length on a forgiving surface. Not in the final week though, it's a hard session.
should be ok mate has long you do 3 to 4 20 plus long runs on the road and remember its time on your feet what counts when marathon training?good luck and what time you going for.
that sounds like a pretty hard core session bro, will give it a shot on thursday evening :-) taking into account I will be taking it easy for the week leading upto the marathon, I have 12 days training, which will go something like this, tues 18/19, wed easy treadmill, thu 3x5km intervals!, fri 10mile, sat off, sun 20+, mon easy treadmill, tues intervals, wed 10mile, thu20+, fri easy 5, 5k sat, taper....... sorted :-)
hoping for 2 45 wayne, but may come up short:p we will see....
by thats a tough session brotherton :p did the 5ks on the treadmill, I was little more than a pool of sweat by the end ! Did 21mile wed, the 3x5k session fri, 26mile in 3hr10 today :-) I was flying at the finish and my legs are fine now :-> Today has given me lots of confidence, one more mid distance run of about 17 in midweek and thats about it, roll on Edinburgh :-))))