The U12 - U18 Individual and Clubs points tables have been updated with AW results.
Please email me with any queries from the website; do not post here.
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The U12 - U18 Individual and Clubs points tables have been updated with AW results.
Please email me with any queries from the website; do not post here.
Excellent FJ just one thing I cant find the tables from the fell junior site but only from clicking the link you have given above. Am I being stupid (theres a first time for everything!!!) or have you hidden them away. Last year they were very easy to find so can you tell me how to navigate to straight to them. Posted at the risk of ridicule
http://www.felljunior.org.uk/FRAJuni...hamppoints.php
I like this link ;)
http://www.felljunior.org.uk/FRAJunior/index.php
for individual tables.
Yes Alisdair - you ar being a bit dim!!
Now then, boys. Play nicely. :D
Thanks WP I know where to look for them from the felljunior site but the tabs for whatever reason arent coming up when I click on fra junior. No idea why but thanks for tryingQuote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Clash City Rocker
Yeah clash city it did that with me but u then have to go on individual at the top and choose yr age group.
hope it works.
Enjoy it while you can. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I will.
You seem to think it will be short lived:cool:
Glad to see that both rosendale and blackburn fully expect helm hill to come out tops at coiners!!!!! :)
No way CVFR for home advantage
Round 2 points tables now updated (after some aggro!)
I must say, I'm still enjoying it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by FellJunior
http://www.felljunior.org.uk/FRAJuni...hamppoints.php
Just to let you know - in the U12 boys, Sam Foster and Sam Hanley-Foster are one and the same person.Quote:
Originally Posted by FellJunior
My 81 year old Grandma could come 5th out of 5 in the Girl's competition and score top points for her club. Floored system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
You think so do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by WillMarsh
Laura Riches - 2nd in Northern XC Champs, just come back from Slovakia where she ran for England Schools. FRA Champ and English Schools Champ.
Hannah Bethwaite has won a Northern Cross Country, a Cross Challege at Liverpool and Gateshead and 3rd in a National.
Shannon, Beckie, Rachel....All these girls at the front end today are top flight competitors at National level. The quality is higher than the lads.
Strength, but not in depth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
James knox- English champ, bofra champ, national champ, county runner
Ashley kay- English international, county runner.
Jonny bradshaw-English international, Bofra champ, 2nd English champs,2nd Yorkshire champs
Tom sessford- British u17 hill running champ, english uphill champ, Ex british champ, England international, county runner
Tom doyle- England international, Kendal winter leauge champ, county runner
Marc scott- one of Englands top xc-track runners, England international, county runner
Joe Johnston- England international, lancs champ
Tim Orr- England international
Sean carey- Winner of many senior races
;)
That, Witton Park my friend, is strength in depth.Quote:
Originally Posted by scott baistow 93
I've just realised how ridiculous and irrelevant your reply was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
My point was that today there was 5 girls there in the u18s. Therefore it is so easy for a 6th competitor to get round (hense I used my Grandma as an example) and come 6th. How much harder is it to come 6th in a boy's field of 16?
If we had fielded a girl in the u18s off the street today she may have come 6th and she would have got more points for the team than Scott. That is why the system is floored.
I don't know why you have started barking on about the quality of field and the split within between boys/girls as that has absolutley nothing to do with it.
And your alternative workable proposal based on the current profile of junior fell running i.e. number of runners, split of boys/girls, number of clubs, which you will be formally submitting to the FRA for consideration is?Quote:
Originally Posted by WillMarsh
Only one of the three counters can be a girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by FellJunior
And doubled your lead if I'm not mistaken. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
A proportionally based system whereby the average position of runners from a club is used with a formula for working out girls results in a fair way but i'm only on a phone at the mo so il work out a fair formula tomorrow
Scott - most of the "successes" that you list are what I would call Big Fish in Small Ponds. I think the depth of quality is underlined by achievements away from fell. I could have also listed similar successes amongst the U18/U16 Girls today.Quote:
Originally Posted by scott baistow 93
James Knox is the only lad that could compare with Laura and Hannah in terms of National achievements.
The highest quality lad I've seen on the fells in recent years was Josh Moody. He was super on the fells, but also on XC and track.
Will it's fair point you make on post 19, but your original post seemed derogatory about the girls and I wanted to emphasise that in terms of quality at the front end of the race, the girls probably stack up better than most.
Just bear this in mind - the "slower" lads in all age groups do not get exposed becuase they usually have some of the girls field around them. If you are a slower girl just think how "lonely" it could be at the tail end of the race.
See the U16/U18 results from Coiners. The girls were seperated by 4.5 mins, the boys over 8 minutes.
Look at the U14 race - do you think the young lady from Scarborough is going to stick with it? I hope she does. There may be a higher drop out in the boys if the races were run seperately and the lads at the back were similarly exposed.
Just a thought - I actually applaud anyone, whaatever their ability, who is prepared to come out and take on these races.
As discussed before, the new club championship replaces a particularly complicated one, which invariably only had one eligible boys team; the one with the most runners regardless of ability. Rarely was there an eligible girls team.
Apart from being vaguely mysogynistic, the effect of this suggestion on the current tables is to remove Blackburn from the leading positions despite one of their girls getting an outright 1st and 3rd in her age group. That doesn't equate with the inference that girls are lesser runners or don't try as hard. The effect on Scarborough, who have to travel a long way to the championship races (with apologies to James Waldie) is that they hardly feature in the tables at all. Not very encouraging. If Leigh could find a third runner, they still wouldn't be in the leading group despite Laura and Shannon's undeniable outstanding abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by WillMarsh
Do not confuse complexity with improved fairness. What is the definition of fairness? Your own club winning? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TT
The purpose of the championship is to encourage clubs to consistently support the races i.e. all 6 rounds, and develop their runners. There is only one trophy awarded, so the winning club will have to have at least 3 runners at each race, and they will have to regularly finish in the top 5 or 6.
I suggest we wait until the end of the year to consider whether this championship is indeed flawed. I think we may well find that the winning club also has the most successful and consistent runners in the individual championship.
I agree - 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by WP
Firstly, at least we have a club championship this year, so thanks for that.
I don't think you can skew the results for age/sex as there will always be year on year anomalies in the numbers of participants.
This years system does seem a little biased towards the top end - a fairer system would take account of the team contribution those runners who turn out race after race with no hope of a podium place, as WP says, 'whatever their ability'.
So as a suggestion for discussion;
Only runners with 4 or more races to count.
Only clubs with 5(?) or more runners in the above category to count.
Take the average of their positions/the number of runners.
Your point on skewing the results highlights the main problem; the proportion of boy/girl runners changes, the numbers from a particular club can change dramatically from year to year, and so on. There is a great danger that the rules are written to suit the profile of a particular year, which can't be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawhead
On your point of rewarding runners who turn out to all 6 races without gaining many points, they will receive an award in the individual championship. Basing the club championship on a relationship to the number of runners risks the pitfalls of the previous set of rules. When we trialled the new rules against recent years results, 3 runners to count at each round seemed the best compromise. Any more, and there were very very few eligible clubs. Any less and it became dominated by talented individuals, who weren't necessarily a product of their club coaching schemes.
Using the individual points reflects the number of runners in each age group category, and is easier for me to work out :D:D
Maybe some of the fell clubs need to look at doing more to attract girls and keep them.
It seems clear from the results that most of the girls are from multi discpline clubs rather than fell specialists. Not just ours, but Scarborough, Leigh, Wakefield, Stockport, Altincham, Lancaster & Morecambe, Warrington....
I applaud your efforts to be as inclusive as possible FJ but I feel that you are still trying to build the competition to suit the circumstances and that three counters can still be dominated by talented individuals.
My suggestion would have resulted in only 4 eligible clubs last year with even Wharfedale ruled out, in spite of their numbers, by having only 4 runners complete 4 or more races - which I think illustrates my point that a club competition should be about not just the best runners but also those who turn out with no hope of a medal, just to run for their club. At the end of the day it should be down to the clubs to motivate their runners to contest the championship rather than creating a championship to include as many clubs as possible.
To be clear about my specific role; I maintain the championship points tables, but I have no formal input to the championship rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawhead
However, this thread seems to be a debate between 'quality' and/or quantity. The latter on its own seems to have little merit for the purposes of a national championship, although of course it reflects club efforts. As I stated earlier, individuals are rewarded for competing in all 6 races.
Inevitably, any rules will be a compromise, particularly as the profile of junior running is far more volatile than senior running.
If clubs feel strongly about the club championship rules, they should approach the FRA committee. I can guarantee they will not respond to posts on this forum.
Im just wondering looking at past results (i am a bit of a geek)...Marcus Preedy from rossendale is in his 3rd year of an under 12???? Im a bit confused
Heres a two'penneth for what its worth and an ill thought out one at that. firstly as RW said at least we have a club champs this year I happen to think is a great development. To expect it to hit the ground running and make everyone happy is unrealistic. However good it was someone somewhere would complain. The very nature of fairness as briefly comtemplated above is that people are listened too, it does not mean that what they want happens. To be listened to as FJ says you need to take the issues to the FRA.
there is an option of doing a club champs for girls and boys seperately but having not looked at numbers I have no idea if that would work out as well as an overall combined one. More work for those not paid to do the work I know but it could be a development for next year.
I think those that are worried are thise who think they're club should do better than it will. I do have a natural tendency to want to see those who are are furtehr back, loyal club runners rewarded and included in the success somehow and not just picking up their "reward" for doing 4 races but I cant see how this could happen.
Just some thoughts to keep the debate stoked up.
Hello geek. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTom
I don't know when Marcus's birthday is, but I suspect that he was 10 in 2008, and therefore became eligible for U12 part way through that year. 2009 11, 2010 still 11 on 1st January, hence still in U12.
CCR is right; it's the volatility of numbers from year to year that undermines a club championship. There used to be separate awards, but the rules were based around (something like) leading 2 from each age group, unless a club didn't have enough U16, in which case they could have the next best from another age group - all from the overall results. :confused: This of course closely matched the individual medal winners. At least the current version can be scored as we go along. Furthermore, a club can take the trophy having had only 3 runners all season or 18 different scorers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clash City Rocker
Two races in to a new version is perhaps a little early to express concern, but I understand and welcome the interest. Don't forget that to improve chances of winning overall a club has to have a minimum of 3 runners at each race. It was pointed out to me at Coiners, that some leading clubs may struggle to maintain that at Patterdale (round 5), as some of their runners may be at Susa. So those with more depth may come to the fore. I suggest a review will be more objective at the end of the season.
At least junior fell running is in a healthy state; 15 years ago you could almost get an individual medal for just 'turning up'.
Looking at it from a gender point of view, consider a comparison with the current state of marathon running in the UK.
And first of all, I want to say I am far from an endurance runner basher - I applaud the efforts of guys like Andi Jones.
In the Mens we do not have anybody capable of running sub 2:10, a time achieved by Ron Hill in 1970 and most recently beaten in 1997 by Richard Nerurkar.
You can see wwe also have a long way to go in the ladies, but at least we still have the current 1st and 2nd running and half of the all time top 10 are recent efforts.
It is clear that in a race between the best 20 men and best 20 women, that the men will win.
It is clear that there are more numbers and therefore more depth in mens marathon running
But it's also clear that the quality of the Women in World or UK terms is higher than that of the Men.
Now I'm not saying that is the case in Junior FRA terms, I'm just trying to say don't confuse the number of competitors with the quality of the competitors.
By the way, I think that this comparison would work for all endurance distances from 400m up to marathon.
Why did you have to tell them that! You should have made them sweat ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by FellJunior
(To repeat myself - apologies) That mix can change significantly from year to year, which is to some extent why the new rules are as simple and open as they are. They should allow all the variables to come into play, but each year the winning club will be (probably arguably :)) the one that is the best for and of that year's particular profile. In other words, it might or might not have the dominant runners, it might have an outstanding group of only boys or only girls, it might have the most runners, it might be the only one to have 3 scorers at each race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Because Will Marsh wants to enter his Grandmother as a 'ringer'. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
My apologies in mistakenly addressing my comments directly to you FJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by FellJunior
I do not represent any specific club and my comments are purely for debate and are not intended as a criticism of those whose tremendous efforts have gone in to running the competition.
As to quality vs quantity, yes the individual championship represents quality, but surely, a club championship should, as you say, reflect club efforts.
RH - no problem and I totally understand.
I've probably expressed my view better in post 37 above.
I think it comes down to we all have an idea of what a club championship should be, but the relevant factors are not always there every year; mainly because young people grow up and move on, and multi-disciplinary clubs change their emphasis.
I'm really interested to see what the club championship looks like by the end of the year.