How do......

.....the top fell runners train to be so good? Im constantly amazed at how these top runners are so far ahead of us mere mortals....I mean I consider myself a half decent runner, sub 3510k and 114half, but despite whatever I do, I could never ever ever envisage being able to get within 15-20mins of the leader of a big champs race! How do these lads do it??? Do they live and breath the fells and totally live for running?? Is the training totally fell specific? Would a year living and training in the lakes improve someone greatly in this discipline? :)

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Originally Posted by TheReverand

.....the top fell runners train to be so good? Im constantly amazed at how these top runners are so far ahead of us mere mortals....I mean I consider myself a half decent runner, sub 3510k and 114half, but despite whatever I do, I could never ever ever envisage being able to get within 15-20mins of the leader of a big champs race! How do these lads do it??? Do they live and breath the fells and totally live for running?? Is the training totally fell specific? Would a year living and training in the lakes improve someone greatly in this discipline? :)

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Yes, Yes, Yes and being 8 stone wet through, the lungs of thorough bred race horse, the agility of a mountain goat, the ability to leap off cliffs without a parachute :eek:and to enjoy the feeling of pain as your quads and calves are screaming to stop.
Easy really.:D

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Originally Posted by Insider

Yes, Yes, Yes and being 8 stone wet through, the lungs of thorough bred race horse, the agility of a mountain goat, the ability to leap off cliffs without a parachute :eek:and to enjoy the feeling of pain as your quads and calves are screaming to stop.
Easy really.:D

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hmm you missed out the bit of being able to disengage brain on the descents. Speed is one thing but the lack of injuries on the descents on rocky ground astounds me. perhaps I'm a wimp

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Originally Posted by TheReverand

.....the top fell runners train to be so good? Im constantly amazed at how these top runners are so far ahead of us mere mortals....I mean I consider myself a half decent runner, sub 3510k and 114half, but despite whatever I do, I could never ever ever envisage being able to get within 15-20mins of the leader of a big champs race! How do these lads do it??? Do they live and breath the fells and totally live for running?? Is the training totally fell specific? Would a year living and training in the lakes improve someone greatly in this discipline? :)

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I've been thinking recently what it is that makes a good fell runner; what combination of aerobic fitness, physical strength, agility and willpower and in what quantities will produce a magic formula for a talented fell athlete. I've come to the conclusion that natural talent has the most to do with it, you're either born to run or you're born to do something else and no amount of training in some people will result in greatness regardless of their build or anything else. If you're lucky enough to be born with a naturally efficient respiratory system then i'd say you're in with a shot but if not, this in an area which cannot really be improved on significantly. Muscle can be built and agility trained, but the question is how good are your lungs?

Don't forget the half marathon record is now 58:22, the elite runners are still proportionately the same distance in front of us mere mortals, I'd still have almost 3 miles to push as he popped into the showers.

As for the combination I reckon there's aerobic capacity obviously, anaerobic depth for ascending, a much higher power to weight ratio in a fell runner than a road runner, more elasticity in the muscles and very flexible joints for suspension, quick reactions to plan footfall and body posture 10 to 20 yards in front and a lack of fear in the descent.

I might start stalking Ian Homles......pop out of a bush and "oh, alright again Ian...." "didnt you pop out of that push last night as well"

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

I might start stalking Ian Homles......pop out of a bush and "oh, alright again Ian...." "didnt you pop out of that push last night as well"

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good plan...watch out for the police though! lol

Every now and then on this forum, hidden amongst the niff naff and trivia of ‘Todays Runner beans’ pops out a little gem like this question.

There have been some interesting comments so far, but probably the biggest reason above all else mentioned so far is:

Desire

Without that burning desire to get there at all costs you simply wont make it

As Paavo Nurmi said “Mind is everything—muscles pieces of rubber. All that I am, I am because of my mind.”

Are you devoting 2000 hours a year to training?

What did you do on the Bank Holiday – a family trip to the seaside or 6 hours of training?

Which is your most important race in 2012, are you preparing for it now?

Of course we do not all have that level of desire and often running is some way down the list of priorities, but if you set yourself realistic targets, plan a progressive programme and carry it out over the next 12 – 24 months you will finish further up the field.

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

I might start stalking Ian Homles......pop out of a bush and "oh, alright again Ian...." "didnt you pop out of that push last night as well"

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Keep bumping into him in Asda to see what he's eating :D "...well isn't this a coincidence, small world eh Ian."

You've got plenty of natural ability Al, i'm convinced by the time you're my ripe old age you'll be considerably better. I on the other hand have got 15yrs of smoking in the bank and chronic ITBS so it could be worse, are you still pi$$ed off about Coniston?

I have just obtained a gene splicing machine and taken swabs from a selection of fell runners. From it, I intend to clone the perfect fell runner:

1. Simon Bailey's legs (they're twice the size of mine, which is cheating for a start)
2. Rob Jebb's cardiovascular system (although you could argue nurture rather than nature with all that cycling)
3. Ian Holmes' ankles, spacial reasoning and training dedication
4. Lloyd Taggart's pain threshold (only a crazy person would race that often unless they couldn't really feel it)
5. My ears (very handy with following winds up hills - you've either got them or you haven't)
6. Al's spelling (everyone needs an achilees heal)

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Originally Posted by noel

I have just obtained a gene splicing machine and taken swabs from a selection of fell runners. From it, I intend to clone the perfect fell runner:

1. Simon Bailey's legs (they're twice the size of mine, which is cheating for a start)
2. Rob Jebb's cardiovascular system (although you could argue nurture rather than nature with all that cycling)
3. Ian Holmes' ankles, spacial reasoning and training dedication
4. Lloyd Taggart's pain threshold (only a crazy person would race that often unless they couldn't really feel it)
5. My ears (very handy with following winds up hills - you've either got them or you haven't)
6. Al's spelling (everyone needs an achilees heal)

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Is this part of your new career as a philosopher?

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

Is this part of your new career as a philosopher?

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I'm still keeping up the day job just in case philosopher redundancies are introduced after the election.

I think Trog is right. Matthew Syed who is a sports writer for the Times and a former olympic table tennis player has just released a book called Bounce. He has looked at the up to date science etc and (I think, I have only read extracts) concludes that those who achieve at a very hich level in almost every endeavour simply work harder. You get out what you put in.
Looks like an interesting read.

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Originally Posted by Trog

Every now and then on this forum, hidden amongst the niff naff and trivia of ‘Todays Runner beans’ pops out a little gem like this question.

There have been some interesting comments so far, but probably the biggest reason above all else mentioned so far is:

Desire

Without that burning desire to get there at all costs you simply wont make it

As Paavo Nurmi said “Mind is everything—muscles pieces of rubber. All that I am, I am because of my mind.”

Are you devoting 2000 hours a year to training?

What did you do on the Bank Holiday – a family trip to the seaside or 6 hours of training?

Which is your most important race in 2012, are you preparing for it now?

Of course we do not all have that level of desire and often running is some way down the list of priorities, but if you set yourself realistic targets, plan a progressive programme and carry it out over the next 12 – 24 months you will finish further up the field.

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I wish I new the answer you seek but 2000 hrs of running ! since I started in 2004 I've tried to average at least 10 hrs per week maybe I need to cut down to 2000!

Should have worked that out first ! 2000 hrs you've got to be Kidding

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Originally Posted by noel

I'm still keeping up the day job just in case philosopher redundancies are introduced after the election.

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Is a philosopher ever made redundant? Discuss.

This is a good question and one that I thought about alot when I started fell running. Having significantly improved, with a small amount of time on the fells, I am starting to believe that those runners at the front are human and beatable after all. Desire and belief has alot to do with it but I honestly think that I can get within 5 mins of Bailey et al in next years Long Mynd (18 this year but lost for about 10 mins of that).

Al told me once that in watching the front boys, the biggest difference was there ability to recover and go straight after a heavy climb. If you can develop your fitness to improve significantly here the margins will be smaller.

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Originally Posted by Roy Scott

This is a good question and one that I thought about alot when I started fell running. Having significantly improved, with a small amount of time on the fells, I am starting to believe that those runners at the front are human and beatable after all. Desire and belief has alot to do with it but I honestly think that I can get within 5 mins of Bailey et al in next years Long Mynd (18 this year but lost for about 10 mins of that).

Al told me once that in watching the front boys, the biggest difference was there ability to recover and go straight after a heavy climb. If you can develop your fitness to improve significantly here the margins will be smaller.

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The last bit is certainly ture....just watch warfe's video from coniston.....jebby comes past breathing like a ragin bull....they are suffering but they just push through.

I don't think the difference can be purely due to hard work. If you look at kids in the playground, some are faster than others. This is normally due to their gait and natural physique. If you took a whole class of kids and they all trained like olympic athletes, you'd still find the best ones to start with were the best ones to finish with.

I'm fairly sure I could get closer to the elite of fellrunning, but probably not quite as good. I am guessing that most of them have natural ability plus application.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how old you are when you're trying to make these large improvements. I think if you're into athletics and running as a kid, your body can adapt a bit more than it can when you reach my age.

I have simular times to The Reverand (at least I did 25 years ago) and i am sorry to say that if you have already been training for several years no matter what you do it is highly unlikly you will ever compete with the very top guys.
It is as they say ,all in the genes.the question of "how to become a champion?" was answered years ago"choose your parents wisely".
The one stipulation I would say is that unless you have trained up to and above 100mpw then you will never know your full potential

Sad, but true, Mr Knott, but there's also alot of untapped potential out there. Top notch runners who chose their parents well, but have never actually done any running, just look at the ones appearing from isolated farmsteads in Kenya and Ethiopia. I suppose it's a similar story to the likes of Joss Naylor.

You can have all the ability in the world, but if you do not have it between your ears you will not make it.

My father was a class act in the late 50’s regularly mixing it with the likes of Hill and Alder. When I was racing really well in my early 20’s I still couldn’t beat the ‘veteran’ because I lack his mental toughness.

Last week whilst walking my dogs, two ex racing greyhounds and a terrier we came across a large deer. Whilst observing the chase it was obvious that one of my dogs was faster than the wild animal. It got away though: I would say that its desire to get away was stronger than my dogs desire to catch it

Have a look at the short interview with Matthew Syed on youtube. I can't attach it with my rudimentary computer skills. He definately argues against the genetic element. He would no doubt point to the fact that the majority of succesful lakeland fell runners lived and trained (hard) in the lakes.
There will no doubt be a contrary argument. I'm off now to buy the book.

It's the nature versus nurture debate, been around for a couple of thousand years, so there probably isn't a definitive answer, only personal opinion. A sure-fire recipe for a long-lived thread.

Trog, maybe you're over-feeding your dogs. They're clearly not hungry enough.

Lots of talk of natural ability here, and, although there may be some truth in that, to simply say that these front runners have always been destined to be great runners, isn't the whole story by a long chalk. Some of us have been around for long enough to remember when many of these athletes didn't look up to much at all.

Hard, consistent training, a mind set that keeps you going and the absolute desire to win count for more than genetics.

But not if you inherit the mind set and the desire. QED.

Talent won't make you work hard, but if you work hard and are talented.....................well, make your own minds up ;-)

I'm not talented and need to work harder, in fact, i need to work:rolleyes:

You should read Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers. It builds a compelling case for nurture over nature and generally points to 10,000 hrs as being the magic amount of practice required for mastery of most things in life. I would say that running was no different. Obviously nature weeds out those that will and will not run for so many hours due to base line levels of physiology, biomechanics in addition to differences in speed of adapatibility.

Applying this to fell running it is no suprise that Joss was that good, after all he lived his whole childhood walking the fells and was therefore closer to 10,000hrs when he picked it up. Intrestingly Kning Billy didnt rate himself as talented and spent 2-3hrs a day running in the fells, is it any wonder he was the best ever.

Fascinating thread this. My 11 yr old has won all his school races, finishes in top 10% in in FRA junior series and loves training on the Helm Wed nights. I was average runner (3.08 marathon, 35m10k) but he seems to fly & can easiliy beat me now over anything under 3 mls. As you say Roy, give him 10,000hrs & he may become a top fell runner, but he appears to have a very good CV system and sustains his speed really well, qualities he probably inherited (prob from his mum) He has that potential but will he be willing to put in the hours required? We'll see, I'd rather he develop a love for the fells at this stage, but he does have an inate ability that separates him from most his age. From the group he is in, I think it will be desire.
Although I often wonder about the pathological desire to win, an obsessive/compulsive drive to succeed & whether that is healthy.

It may explain why Billy B and Kenny S's records still stand. I don't think many (any?) of the fell runners since have been brought up in and amongst the fells like they and Joss were. Haven't Rob Jebb's performances in the classics improved since he moved there?

Maybe it's the radon gas, or Sellafield, or something in the water.

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Originally Posted by Trog

Every now and then on this forum, hidden amongst the niff naff and trivia of ‘Todays Runner beans’ pops out a little gem like this question.

There have been some interesting comments so far, but probably the biggest reason above all else mentioned so far is:

Desire

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Hitting the nail on the head...I recently ran a 32km race in El Chalten, Patagonia with one of the best long distance mountain runners in Argentina.... Needless to say, he dragged me round but kept shouting at me to keep believing we could win this thing, and after 2h35m we crossed the finishing line in 2nd place.... only 10 seconds behind first. I never believed that I could achieve this and in a way it always held me back in races, even if only sub-conciously. Of course Diet and Training are the most important thing, but desire to win is like the C0-2 valve in the car, just giving you that little bit more.

Desire to win a race is one thing, but you won't have a chance unless you're good enough and that comes from the desire to succeed in the sport. Some have innate natural ability (Simon Bailey and Natalie White have been prolific winners from a very early age) If you don't have that ability, it takes desire, application, patience, determination,belief, sacrifice,an ability to embrace and enjoy hard work, an ability to cope with the inevitable setbacks and much more, but provided you start a progressive training programme early enough, there's no reason why someone with a modicum of basic physical attributes/ ability can't be with the "big boys" within 5 years.

Let's face it, most of us aren't going to win anything no matter how hard we train. If we don't have the basic raw material and train too hard we'll invariably get injured and break down. The trick for the rest of us is simply to hang in there and plug away. To become survivors.

There's an interview with Grasmere Guides Champion Bill Teesdale in Richard Askwith's book 'Feet in the Clouds'. Teesdale, who "looks like a Hobbit" and "did a lot of walking in them days" explains how he started his running career on the tracks in Scotland where they had various events including mile handicaps, By the time he moved onto the fells he was having to give his track rivals up to a quarter mile start. Natural talent and an obsessive determination to win, it was.

But,in the long run, we can all win something if we play our cards right. An averagely poor runner, even I managed to 'peak' for my 60th year, and by doing so grabbed no less than 10 trophies in 12-18 months. I aim to do it all again when I'm 70. At 70 you can get something just for turning up. The top runners will mostly have hung up their fell shoes before then. Running into old age, with only the likes of you or me to beat, doesn't seem to interest them.

Now half way through the book. It is well argued and is supported by science and examples. If you are motivated and put in the required hours of work of the right quality you can succeed. In fact you will succeed. The belief in innate talent is wrong and limiting. Time after time it has been shown that it is hard work that leads to success. As someone said on this forum - those who believe they can and those who believe they can't are both right.

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Originally Posted by Deadlegs

Now half way through the book. It is well argued and is supported by science and examples. If you are motivated and put in the required hours of work of the right quality you can succeed. In fact you will succeed. The belief in innate talent is wrong and limiting. Time after time it has been shown that it is hard work that leads to success. As someone said on this forum - those who believe they can and those who believe they can't are both right.

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I was not going to contribute to this post any further because i did not want to fall out with anyone .
But i am sorry deadlegs,.I cannot let the statement you have just made go unchallenged.
I am aware of the book you are reading and i have read many more to counteract the claims made in the book.
All i will say is this,to believe what you have posted,anyone can ,by will power, a positive belief system, training hard desire it more than anything in the world , rock up at the Olympics and beat Usain Bolt in the 2012 100 mtrs final.
This is just not true.
Yes ,you will be substantially better than when you first started but for the general population they will be 30,40 whatever mtrs behind him.
To think that success lays in shear strength of will makes all of us failures when we do not win.
Your theory gives everyone of us the ability to win, but if we do not we only have ourselves to blame,
you have left us with a sense of failure.
"I did not want to succeed enough " I am not committed enough".
What i am saying is we all have great potential more than we realize but we are also limited to the genetic predisposition we are born with.

I remember some years ago reading of a good Samaritan who found a once-famous Kenyan runner living on the streets in the Bowery in New York along with the usual plethora of tramps and alcoholics. If I recall the story correctly, the once-famous Kenyan runner was not only totally drunk and completely unfit but was also 2 or 3 stones overweight. It was clear that he hadn't run for many years.
His saviour recognized him and took him back to Africa. Within a short time the man was running 30 minute 10kms. That's something I could never do if I trained night and day for the next 100 years. Just as I can't drive a car like Michael Schumacher, or paint like Vincent van Gogh, or write poetry like Sorley MacLean, so I can never hope to run like Kilian Journet. It's a fact. I have to live with it. You, dear readers, mostly do too.

wow I seem to have started quite a debate :) some interesting thoughts........
I think it is obvious that most of us certainly can do better, with more commitment and dedication. Personally I know I am capable of lots better than I achieve, but I will never ever achieve this as I find it impossible to consistently train hard, due to having lots of other things that interfere with running :p But it must be true that the top top lads are born with greater physical attributes that enable them to reach greater performance....

I found it difficult to accept at first but there is evidence to support what I am saying. You are saying what you feel to be true and that is not the same thing. Champions are champions because of thousands and thousands of hours of effort. Reverand , you would not just have to train hard consistantly but do so for years. Woodlander, you are not suggesting that Schumacher has a natural talent for driving are you? A.P.E , no a member of the public couldn't rock up to the 2012 Olympics because it takes about 10 years of consistent effort to get to the required standard.