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I have 1 remaining border collie pup (bitch) for sale.. she is mostly white with a bit of black on her face and back.
She is looking for a new home and is ready to go on the 21st August.
£300 with a deposit required
07791 175 206 or PM me
Thanks Phil
Hi I'm guessing at that price she's registered?
no she's not KC registered.. KC registered pups are bringing £500
I would advise no one to buy this puppy. Every single person who buys a pup from a breeder contributes to the death of thousands of healthy dogs by pushing market forces in the direction of more dogs. We already have an excess running into the hundreds of thousands in the UK, and three times that number in the Republic of Ireland. I've heard 15 years of rationalisations for breeding and buying puppies, and never once a reason that couldn't be countered by re-homing one of the many surplus. Those of you reading this who breed and buy puppies, spare a thought for the people who pick up the pieces of the situation you create- giving lethal injections to healthy dogs, bagging them up and incinerating them, or watching them imprisoned in cells for life because the 'animal-loving' public doesn't like rescue centres who have a destruction policy.
Totally agree with Longdogs. Stay well clear. Unregistered dog - no Health tests, Hip scores, Eye tests, no knowledge of blood lines or health issues. I take it as a "breeder" you issue a contract and will always take back the Pup if it ever becomes unwanted to your home and look after it for it's entire life as that is what GOOD BREEDERS do? Your pup has no proven Work or Showing abilities i guess, so why breed? Well cos you think it's a good way of making a bit of cash. Far too many dogs in rescue centres because of people like you. "Breeders" have a waiting list for their pups with homes lined up before the pups are even born. Makes me so mad!
I will try and give you a good reason why I didn't get a rescue dog. My wife and I wanted to get a dog from our local rescue centre. We were told we wouldn't be allowed one as there would be nobody at home full time with the dog, we tried to explain that the dog would be on it's own for more than four or five hours at the very most as my mum would have it in the afternoon, every day.
I do agree however that puppy farming is a despicable way of earning money, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Breeders" as there are a number of websites out there for people who want to buy pups and they are readily available from working and show stock.
Breed rescues tend to have quite a good understanding of what sort of homes to place dogs in and can be more "lenient" with their placements. They often have more time to come out Homecheck and actually speak with you and get to know how a dog they placed with you would fit in with your lifestyle and work. Most people who do the homechecks are volunteers and want what is best for their fave breed of dog. Yes you may have to travel a long way - we live in Accrington and had to collect our rescue girl from Bristol so maybe particular breed rescue would work better than a local rescue?
Think you should all get off your high horses. dont tar everyone with the same brush...we are not breeders nor do we contribute to the deaths of thousands of dogs..
All our pups come from show dogs, just because they are not registered does not mean that they are not worthy.
think you should all take a breath and preach else where..
Thanks
Actually that isn't true for everyone. My old bitch may not be from a registered line but I can trace her family back generations. I had 3 litters out of her & bar one pup I'm still in contact with every one. She was from a good working strain but looked more a house dog when we went to view her. I bred her because she has a wonderful temperment & I chose a good working dog for her to go with. All my pups had checks & I offered to take a pups back should circumstances change. I only had to do this once & rehomed him at 7 months. With being intouch with the new owners I know her line hasn't shown any eye or hip problems I many have proven themselves as working dogs. However saying all that I do understand that there are many out there not as careful as me & there poor pups end up in rescue before their a year old. Oh & I didn't charge £300 for mine either.Quote:
Originally Posted by vburke
Longdogs I hear what your saying but whilst ever there are dogs, humans will buy them. And that means they will always try and take the cheaper or easier option. It's a catch 22 scenario. I would never buy a dog from a breeder personally. I took over 2 years of deciding on a border collie and eventually got one from border collie uk trust. He was 15months old and as the farmer said to the rescue people he doesn't have any herding in him so he was going to shoot him.
Who do you blame, the breeders who have bred border collies to try and be a breed that they are not, or the farmer who just blatantly was going to dispose of him.
2 years on and badger runs with me most days and is a massive part of my life.
I urge people to support there local rescue centres. I'm not blaming anyone for the problems we have with to many dogs.
My advice is do not have a border collie unless you have time to give lots and lots of excercise and stimulation.
Good post, welcome to the forum bettyQuote:
Originally Posted by BionicBetty
I would never leave my collie for 5 hours and certainly the fact you said your mum would be having the dog wouldn't go down well at the rescue centreQuote:
Originally Posted by Graeme78
Helen,Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
We've had 3 dogs now, all from pups and they've been brought up properly and lived life to the full.
Dont tar us all with the same brush.
Speaking of dogs, Joss wont settle down when I was just planning on going to bed - Hey ho.
Both Al Fowler and Bionic Betty- you TOTALLY miss the point. If every person who you sold a pup to, or every time you bought one, got a rescue dog instead that would be x number less pointless dead dogs- it has absolutely nothing to do with how well you treat them, how much you love them, how many tests you do on them, or how good their 'stock' is. It's a numbers game. Every puppy bought, regardless of the piece of paper it comes with, is an opportunity for another dog to die. I don't doubt that your puppies live life to the full and are well looked after- just that another dog somewhere dies for them to be able to do it. You cannot justify it on those grounds. And by the way a breeder is someone who makes puppies- makes no odds if you are a puppy farmer, a hobby breeder or a one-off. The money you receive is part of the market forces which are the problem. You're part of a problem which I have to clean up on a daily basis. I make no apologies for judging you- i've been at the coalface for a long time on this one. And i'm sick of it!
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Originally Posted by Longdogs
I understand what your saying, and your dedication is top notch with what your up again.
Maybe I do feel some guilt for buying puppy, I did considered getting a rescue pointer but I went against it.
With the job im going into I dont know if i'll be able to have a dog again because I'd be away from home all day and obviously thats not fair on the dog. Im lucky now that my mum can be flexible so you can look after him during the day and take him and henry out lab with her most days.
Ive read your website a few times now, about all your dogs and their stories - Pedwar (I think it was him) legged me up and completely wrapped his lead around me at sedburgh 3 peaks outside the hut.
I'll be honest, one thing that did put my off getting a rescue dog was how the internet tags them as potentially having massive social issues and maybe I was scared that I wouldnt of been able to control the dog and made its life more of a mess.
Obviously thats just a steriotypical view but it worried me so nodoubt it worries others. Thats not to say exactly the same thing could happen to Joss - He keeps trying to push his luck and get all cocky, but I suppose thats what puppies do.
Thanks Al it's decent of you to be so magnanimous after me ranting at you ! I've had a long day trying to sort something out for the latest casualty.. You make a good point that rescue dogs do sometimes get labelled as problem dogs, and it worries people. Its one of those things that becomes ingrained... everyone says it so it must be true... like the earth was once flat. A dog is a dog is a dog .. if people better understood dogs we would get somewhere. When i win the lottery i am going to set up an educational dog re-homing centre where frazzled parents can send their kids to summer school and learn about dogs. Til then... carry on i suppose :)
Daz I would never have a collie, they require more care than I could ever hope to give them. I was not referring to a collie rescue centre, rather a local rescue centre. The rescue centre is very picky about where dogs go, in fact probably too picky.Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
I know of dogs that are routinely left at home all day, I also know of dogs that go to someone elses house for the full day. At the moment mine is left between 8 and 12 and the 1 and four, he seems fine with that. When my mum and dad are back from holiday he'll be with someone for the afternoon at the very least. When he's on his own he enjoys the peace and quiet, when we go on holiday he's knackered by the end of the week and looking forward to us going back to work so he can get some peace! When I'm off sick he just stays on his bed all the time.
Apologies if this seems overly agressive but I'm left feeling a bit defensive from what you wrote.
I do think it depends on your dog, I have a particularly lazy labrador, who only retrieves in water, likes to sleep, and spends most of his time a hundred yards behind me because he's found another interesting smell. At least he's stopped peeing on every gate post we go past now!
A brilliant point. The basic lack of understanding drives me insane. I have thought for a long time that we need people-oriented dog education courses - Longdogs I know about fifty people just in my local park that would benefit from something like that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
We are in the middle of a family feud at the moment, where my other half's sister, a vet, has been looking for a dog and refusing to consider a rescue dog despite our pleadings :mad:. She only wants a pedigree. Apparently we are officially not speaking to her now.
However, Al - you shouldn't necessarily feel guilty. Just because the general concensus on here is that a rescue dog is preferable, you made your decision based on what would be in the interests of your prospective dog, ie, you were worried that you wouldn't be able to give it the control it required to give it the home it needed. Whilst I would always advocate taking on a rescue dog or none at all, and I think you would have found a suitable rescue dog evantually, I can understand your rationale. Unfortunately you are right, the media does sometimes convey a bit of a stereotype of rescue dogs as all having problems or issues and needing intensive 'extra' work or special handling. Whilst there are obviously cases like that (usually borne out of people's poor behaviour in the past), the reality is very different. Rescue dogs require patience, understanding and love. For many, that is the point of having one.
I've now had Ozzy for two years. He's my constant companion. He was dumped by a farmer because he was rubbish at ratting (he's a Parsons Jack Russel) and was about to be destroyed in the pound. He is from a 'working' background. He is the most gentle, affectionate, loyal and rewarding friend you could wish for. He even comes to work with me every day - he's sitting under my desk as I write this. He's a rubbish fell runner though - he's only got little legs... comes out on my recovery runs :D Here he is...
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Originally Posted by philt1
I think of you decide to breed or sell for whatever reason you should expect this. I think it may be more about you advertising to a different audience. If you are deliberatly breeding you are creating more dogs and as longdogs says that means other without homes or who are older will find it hard to get placed.
Unless people have a genuine reason for needing a breed such as for working I cannot see the need for most of us to buy newborns of specific breeds. There are enough out there already especially those who have been adandoned as they are being seen as past useful at ages like 5 and 6! Not everyone seems to realise dogs age and you are as responsible for their health and welfare and sometimes dogs can be less active or infirm incurring extra support and cost for a long as their most active peak.
The catch 22 in all this is there now a puppy that needs homing, if its sold it encourages more breeding if it is not, what happens then - will you give it away to someone who will use it for the purpose it is bred for?
Re the point about problems with rescue dogs, some dogs do have problems but you need to think it is as often because of the enviroment they were reared in rather than a issue with the dog itself. We have just had to reluctantly back out from having such a dog because it could be a risk to the family and other dogs, however it if had been brought up properly to begin with ......
Nice story Simegreen.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by simgreen78
I would only ever have a recycled hound. They may not always be the easiest option but our current dog is a joy to have.
I think partly the reason that people buy pedigree dogs is that they know what they're getting. Though I'm not a fan of pedigrees myself.
We got a rescue mongrel dog about 2 years ago who was both very stubborn (despite being well trained) and liked chasing sheep. This was the worst possible combination, and was probably related to the mix of breeds he had in him. We had to rehouse him as we're surrounded by sheep farmers.
That was a mistake we don't want to make again, so we have since decided that if we do get another dog, it will probably be something similar to the one we already have (which we got from the excellent Millstream Animal Shelter in Droylsden, Manchester) - a collie lab cross.
I suspect there are many people like us who would like a dog from a puppy so they can train it how they like, and can be sure it's not been mentally scarred from previous stupid abusive owners. If we were to get another dog, we would certainly look round the local rescue places for a young (<1 year) lab-collie cross. But failing that, there is a breeder near us - so we would also consider this. I think this is a reasonable stance, and I don't think I should feel guilty about it.
Longdogs, I'm stuggling to see your endgame here. Many people want to own dogs - so people breed them. I can't see a situation developing where this stops. I agree that people should always consider a rescue dog first, but a lot of people (like me) have specific requirements.
Noel, the idea that you know what you're getting is simply a myth. Do you propose typing the genome of your prospective puppy, and predicting every single event in its life? No? Well then you don't know what you're going to get.
Re-homing centres are full to bursting with dogs from people who thought they knew what they were getting, and they can 'train it how they like'. Those with 'mental scarring' (which clinically doesn't exist) or any behaviour issues are in the minority, or transient and caused by kennelling. If you aren't savvy enough to train any ordinary dog, you certainly won't have the skills to do an adequate job with a puppy. A dog doesn't know whether its a 'rescue' dog or not, it just knows its a dog and behaves like a dog- simple.
As i said earlier, i've never heard of any special requirements which can't be met by rehoming a dog. If you hanker after a particular breed (though why someone wants a clone of everyone else's dog i'm not sure) there is a book of rehoming societies for every breed.
As for my endgame? Well, i'm splitting my sides at that... Seriously, i don't have one.. i just do what i can for dog welfare, while trying not to get so down about it that i become one of the statistics of the veterinary profession- 7 times the national suicide rate (11 times for female vets in their 20s and 30s).
But generally breeds do have characteristics in terms of behaviour and temperement. You wouldn't deny that. Dogs are not all the same. Spaniels are likely to behave more like spaniels than greyhounds are. Some people, like you for example, seem to prefer one over the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
I'm interested by this comment. This has been discussed a bit on this thread already. I think the rescue centres themselves give this impression by the detailed descriptions that you get with most dogs, such as "not good with children", or "had bad experiences with children", "doesn't like other dogs", "scared of traffic" "kills cats" - the list is endless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
Sorry, maybe "endgame" was a poor choice of words. I just find it hard to see how my actions would lead to fewer people needlessly killing dogs (which is something we both want).Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
Yes, that's a scary statistic. I hope your running helps. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
How can that be?! I know of lots of dogs that I would consider to have mental scarring. Even my own dog, who is terrified of men after being kicked around by his previous male owner but very fond of the ladies (good lad). Runs and hides if you get a bin liner out of the cupboard as he was bagged up and dumped. How is it 'clinically' non-existent? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
Ok... 3 questions, 3 answers.
1. How do your actions lead to less senseless dog killing?- by rehoming one instead of buying one that's been manufactured for profit. every time a puppy is bought or sold, a breeder is encouraged to repeat the exercise. If there was no market, they would stop.
2. Yes different dogs have different characteristics. That's why you get them assessed by professionals before re-homing them... oh no, my mistake, nobody does that do they.. they often give less thought to the 10 + years of commitment than they do to buying a toaster.
3. 'Mental scarring'. The only non-human animals with any evidence for abstract thinking is the higher primates, re: tool-making in a very minor way. There is zero evidence of abstract thought in dogs.
What happens in dogs is Input A + Input B = Output C (behaviour). Lets take the above example- a dog afraid of a bin liner. Input A= presence of bin liner. Input B= pain/fear. Output C = Hide, act scared. That is how the dog learns Output C. There is no evidence to suggest it has any memory of what happened in the past, but now, Input A leads to Output C. If we change Input B to something pleasant for the dog, lets say a biscuit, and repeat enough times, we get output D- relaxed, happy behaviour in response to bin liner. This is obviously a simple example, but you get the drift.
What happens in human minds is very different. The reason why rescue homes say things like 'no kids', 'scared of traffic' etc is threefold. One- fear of litigation. Two- not all of them are very knowledgable, however well-meaning. Three- if they had to convince every prospective owner of the above before rehoming a dog, they'd never be able to do anything. It's simpler and quicker to just say what they say and then the dog has a home and the next one takes its place. And so the public never learns and the cycle goes on.. but what else can you do? A mass cull of all surplus dogs and compulsory exams for dog owners (it happens in Switzerland...).
Scary. Although the actual figure is four times the national rate. Still scary though. Although I would point out that apparently the main three reasons cited are long hours, fear of customer complaints and fear of making professional mistakes, which is a different kind of thing to what I think you are alluding to here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
Actually I'd favour the compulsory exam thing, I posted on here about that several months ago...
Only four times now eh! It was 7 last time i looked.. brilliant, we're all fine then :) How did they get these citings? From beyond the grave? Seriously, what i've read is (a) personality type, (b) conditions as you mentioned above, and (c) easy access to means. All these apply to medics and dentists too, also high rates. I think we outperform them on suicide though because of constantly having to make decisions on 'quality of life' of sentient beings and the apparent disposability of our patients. But that's purely a personal viewpoint.
Yes, it seems that that is the view of the still living, it was certainly what I would have thought. I'm assuming they put the 'reasons' stats together from notes that have been left? Discussions with friends and relatives? Default occupational criteria when all other reasoning fails?Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
Vets certainly outperform dentists and medics. Although I think from memory that farmers have the worst ratio. Flippancy aside, its a bloody awful statistic.
One should always try to be on the winning team :)Quote:
Originally Posted by simgreen78
OK, I understand your argument, but I think it's based on incorrect assumptions. This is the way I see it: There are a number of people who will always buy dogs and will then get rid of them or have them put down for a number of reasons. There is already a market for these people, and there always will be. People like me who would not put a dog down (unless to prevent suffering) and would not send it to a rescue centre, do not increase or decrease this number of people, or the cost of dogs by buying dogs from breeders. We increase the number of dogs, but not their ownership by irresponsible owners. I'd like to draw a venn diagram to describe this better. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
I agree that by buying a dog and not rehoming one, I would not be part of the solution. But neither would I be part of the problem. As it happens, I did rehouse one.
I don't think we're arguing about whether it's learnt, memory-based or otherwise (at least I'm not). The fact is previous experiences affect a dog's behaviour. Why would someone want a dog that they had to then take through these forms of therapy, when they can get one from a reputable breeder with whom (more often than not) they would not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
Also, it's not as simple as giving your dog a biscuit for a few months when they see something they're scared of. As you well know, some dogs take many years to get over certain phobias (or whatever you would call them), or never fully do. I have some friends who have a lovely rescue dog who is scared of men - for very good and quite harrowing reasons. They've been to a number of dog professionals and are following the best advice to the letter. The dog is still scared of her male owner (albeit slightly less so).
300 notes for a BC - unless it is a international trialling champion you are having a laugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by philt1
I would love to take dogs that require rehoming - especially the ones that are elderly so that I could offer them the love that they deserve, especially in their twilight years. Unfortunately the other half would potentially find this too distressing but we have decided that we would take younger ones. Our oldest dog was from a farmer who wanted rid as he stopped working the sheep (probably because he had become epiletic but this was unknown to the farmer as he was housed outside) he was free - he was 4 at the time and was probably lucky that the farmer was kind hearted as most would have disposed of a non-working BC himself and our second was a puppy - but again from a farmer. He simply had allowed his working dogs to breed - he does not breed for a business though and he only wanted £30 to cover the costs of some injections.
Both of these instances we feel that we have contributed to giving both our dogs a quality home and the care and attention that they deserve - which the dogs certainly show back to us.
This does not answer any of the issues that have been raised in this thread - but I certainly would never buy from a breeder who does that as a profession - EVER.
So you're saying there a two populations of people- those who re-home dogs and those who buy new ones. Lets suppose you're right. If i persuade 10 people today to move from the second population to the first that's 10 dogs lives saved. If i persuade 10 people to do the reverse, that's 10 financial transactions which have a net effect of encouraging the beneficient of those transactions to manufacture more product, and 10 failures to get people to save a dog's life. That's how it is being part of the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Of course previous experience affects a dog's behaviour, just not in the way people usually think. And i did point out that my example was simplified as a demonstration, for the purposes of explaining how a dog's brain works. I have got 11 years of postgraduate training on the subject- i can elaborate if you like. The example i gave is not 'therapy'- it's part of a daily interaction with all dogs, all the time, that results in particular behaviours recurring or not recurring. This is true of any dog, wherever it comes from. And i repeat, just because a dog is rehomed does not mean it will have any problematic behavioural issues at all. If buying a puppy from a reputable breeder guarantees no behavioural problems for life, tell me why its the most commonly cited reason to request euthanasia in pedigree dogs?
You ask why should someone go to the trouble of reshaping the behaviour of a dog who does happen to have some problems? Because they care. Because its rewarding. Because its the right thing to do. Because it gives meaning and purpose to your life. Because nobody else will. Because the dog is not a commodity for our selfish convenience. Because they can. Because it demonstrates to others that its possible and they might try it. That's off the top of my head, i may think of more reasons later.. :)
No, I said those who are irresponsible owners who have bought dogs from breeders and those who are not but have bought dogs anyway. I've done my venn diagram. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
You're a better person that I am Longdogs. I think it's fair to say that for most people (me included), this isn't why we get dogs. I have no great ambition to undo the evils of society, but will help if I can and it doesn't put me out too much. I just want a dog for the enjoyment it brings to both of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
Having considered Noel's diagram, what is the process to nominate somebody for one of the Nobel Prizes?
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by simgreen78
I am amused by how this thread, despite being in the sales and wants forum, has mutated into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of the puppy market. Sorry Philt1.
I guess having read this thread, we should hope that you find an owner, but that you have to reduce the price and that you vet the buyers carefully. :)
Nice diagram but i don't agree with it. In my experience, there aren't 2 populations of owners- irresponsible and not, with no crossover. Sometimes people who would consider themselves definitely in one category (i.e. the responsible one) wake up one day and find they are in the other.. Peoples' circumstances change, they find they can no longer look after their dog, they get ill, divorced, made redundant, goddam it sometimes the pesky buggers even die on us. Voila- a homeless dog, at which point they (the owners, still living ones) wake up and smell the coffee, realising there is nowhere for their beloved pet to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
p.s. one of my points being, you can have this without buying a puppy..Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
p.p.s. not a better person, this just happens to be my 'thing', i am a total arse in all other areas of life :)
It's nice to know there is a balance. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
I don`t want to join the debate but i feel that I should say I am 100% behind Longdogs in her sentiments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdogs
The Collie in my Avatar was a rescue dog and in fact was just hours away from Euthanasia when we called the rescue home looking for a collie that needed rehoming, to cut a long story short we were introduced to a trembling Psychotic animal that had obviously had a pretty shabby start to life, anyway despite all the warnings we were given as regard`s to how difficult she could be, we made a donation and took her home yes she was hard work having never been socialised with people, other animals etc and she just appeared to be afraid of everything especially wide open spaces, she couldn`t handle stiles, Gates , afraid of Rivers and open water etc etc, But now several years down the line we have a Beautiful confident (almost ) collie that is a joy to be with and we often remark that it is good that our dog now realises that not everthing is out to get her.
So for me at least until the dog homes are empty, then there is really is no need to buy or breed puppys, much better to make a donation to a home and give a living creature a fair chance at life rather than turning your back and condeming often a very good animal to an early death.
Buying a Puppy gives you no more Gaurantees than re-homing an animal, at the end of the day it is all up to the handler/trainers ability to teach the dog to intergrate into what for it is an unatural enviroment, that given a chance I suspect it would choose not to be a part of.