Navigation.

Is there anyone who lives in or near Sheffield who is very proficient at navigation. This includes night time navigation and also when deep in the middle of forests in the mountains, The examples in last sentence are an example of the time and terrain my brother and i will encounter. I know the FRA has a course but we are looking for a more regular feedback and tutorage. Is there anyone who can help as this would help my brother and i immensely as this training is very race specific we get this wrong we will get nowhere. It's fortunate that the race i not until next April.

Hey up. I am happy to meet up and do some day time nav with you from Langsett or near by during August to help you build your nav skill capabilities.

Thanks. My brother would be coming along is that o.k. ?. I am seeing him on monday i will ask when he is available if that is o.k. with you. We would very much appreciate any help. I take it map, compass and pencil required.Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

Thanks. My brother would be coming along is that o.k. ?. I am seeing him on monday i will ask when he is available if that is o.k. with you. We would very much appreciate any help. I take it map, compass and pencil required.Cheers.

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I seem to remember you are in DP, they run a nav course although I'm not sure when the next one is, whats the special event you are doing?

Thanks Ian. I will look into that regards DPFR navigation. My brother and i are in training for the Barkley Marathons. It is odd as you cannot know if your application is successful until December. If you are not familiar just go to www.mattmahoney.net/barkley for all answers about the race. Also to apply to enter the race you must find the info from a previous runner as the process is not given out anywhere to keep numbers limited to about 35. 30 usa 5 reserved intl spots.

Matt, a 100 mile race with 59,000 feet of climb?! That is some hardcore racing right there.

With respect to nav, all good ideas above. Plus I can also recommend the book 'Navigation For Off-Road Runners' as a jumping on point from the trail Guides series. Available from Pete Bland's website.

I agree and only 10 finishers ever. You would think 100 miles in 60 hours would be easily doable for most good athletes. I don't know if you looked at the website but i believe nav skills and the ability to power hike for lots of hours are the key. Yes there are some runnable sections but i think the ability to do these at a decent clip but nothing out of the ordinary will get you thru. If you look at the guys who have finished it {not that i expect to} they all have long distance trail records which require the ability to power hike like you have never known. The elevation is lots and lots of 1000 to 1500 ft in 0.5 to 1.4 mile steep climbs again the hike comes in. The way to enter is secret so i can only hope i have the right details from a former runner and hope we are 2 of the 5 international admitted in December in a grand total of 35 runners.

On a previous thread you were asking about steep climbs in the locality for some specific training, 1000ft in .75 miles etc and a few people offered up suggestions. Given what you are looking at doing, I don't think that is the type of training you need to be looking at. Quite honestly you need miles, and lots of them, with good climb interspersed throughout. Have you looked at the LDWA website? Some great local routes on there that will take you out for many hours at a time and test your hill legs whether running or power hiking. For example, you could try the Kinder Dozen, which will give you about 10,000ft in 26ish miles. A great indicator for how you'd feel at the quarter point of your race. You could build from there. It would also be a great test for your Nav whilst being kept within the confines of one mountain.

Why are you doing it if you don't expect to finish it? I'm not having a dig but I think you should be more positive. If you think you can or if you think you can't you're right and all that. Good luck.

I would feel egotistical to suggest i could finish it when you have a look at the finishers they are all top end U.S. ultrarunners like David Horton,Andrew Thompson and John Basham who have a bunch of long distance records between them. Don't get me wrong i will bust a gut trying to finish and i wont give up so the only way i will come off the course is to be timed out. But with only 10 finishers ever all with top pedigree as above i am being realistic but i will dream.

Good luck mate, sounds like anyone is lucky just to make it to the start with all the secrecy of entering! Also good luck with the nav - hope there's a decent map of the course because my experience of maps in the states is that they're shockingly bad compared to OS maps. Have you been to the area before?

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Originally Posted by cyclops

Good luck mate, sounds like anyone is lucky just to make it to the start with all the secrecy of entering! Also good luck with the nav - hope there's a decent map of the course because my experience of maps in the states is that they're shockingly bad compared to OS maps. Have you been to the area before?

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you could always ask these guys for some advice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

I agree and only 10 finishers ever. You would think 100 miles in 60 hours would be easily doable for most good athletes

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To be honest navigational skills will be the least of your worries. That link you gave referred to one chap, Blake Wood, winning a hundred mile trail race in 16 hours odd and another with a 'mere' 33,000 feet of climb in 30 odd hours, but completing the one you intend to do in 58:21!!!! There's a reason for that you know :)

Cheers everyone. I am not taking a map as a friendly veteran Frozen ed Furtaw who wrote the book Tales from out there about the Barkley is sending my brother and i stuff over on the computer and for real when we get there. I agree Stolly it seems fatigue gets most then bad navigation. The ascent and decent are all short 1500 ft jobs but massively steep. All those i have contacted who have finished say you need between 20000 and 30000 feet climbing per week at peak training so my brother and i are going for 2013. Also you have to fight off the briers upto your ears on hills with names like testicle spectacle and run under a prison through it's water drainage tunnel and it is self sufficient the only thing you get are two things water at 2 places on course or ice if it's cold. To me this is the essence of running outside.

Hi Leonidas, why not try orienteering? A lot of British orienteering is forest-based and will give you an excellent opportunity to really develop your navigational skills. If you're near Sheffield you've got one of the best clubs in the country on your doorstep in SYO. I'm pretty sure they run regular training sessions for all levels of ability. There's probably plenty of SYO members in DP too, so you could no doubt tap one of them for info. Try Oli Johnson, you won't find anyone much better at running around with a compass in his hand.

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

Cheers everyone. I am not taking a map as a friendly veteran Frozen ed Furtaw who wrote the book Tales from out there about the Barkley is sending my brother and i stuff over on the computer and for real when we get there. I agree Stolly it seems fatigue gets most then bad navigation. The ascent and decent are all short 1500 ft jobs but massively steep. All those i have contacted who have finished say you need between 20000 and 30000 feet climbing per week at peak training so my brother and i are going for 2013. Also you have to fight off the briers upto your ears on hills with names like testicle spectacle and run under a prison through it's water drainage tunnel and it is self sufficient the only thing you get are two things water at 2 places on course or ice if it's cold. To me this is the essence of running outside.

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Which bit?

One of the best ways to improve your navigation skills is to do some orienteering:

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/

The orienteering sounds a great idea. The bit simon is all of it i suppose you know you're in the back end of nowhere with just your map and compass and whatever you can carry no aid stations. You live or die on your own ability. Liberating.

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

To me this is the essence of running outside....

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Honestly Leonidas this thing is a truly bonkers race aimed at truly bonkers but supremely fit ultra runners. Putting things in perspective its at least 16 times the ascent/descent of the anniversary waltz, a race I think you've had a crack at, and at least 9 times the distance.... and its all through fairly inpenetrable woodland by the sound of things, the race itself being based on a prison escape where the escapee only managed to make 8 miles of headway in 55 hours :).

Wiki says:

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The Barkley Marathons is a 100 Mile Run and a 60 Mile Fun Run held annually in Frozen Head State Park near Wartburg, Tennessee in late March or early April.The course itself, which has changed distance, route, and elevation many times since its inaugural run in 1986, currently consists of a 20-mile (32 km) loop with no aid stations except water at two points along the route and the runner's parked car at the beginning of the loop. Runners of the 100 Mile version run this loop five times, with loops three and four being run in the opposite direction and loop five being runner's choice. Runners of the 60 Mile Fun Run (considered to be harder than Hardrock) complete three circuits of the loop.

With 54,200 feet (16,500 m) of accumulated vertical climb, the 100 Mile Run is considered to be one of the more challenging ultramarathons held in the United States, if not the world.

In addition to running, competitors must find between nine and 11 books (varies per year) and remove a page from each book as proof of completion.

The cut-off time for the 100 Mile race is 12 hours per loop, and the cut-off for the 60 Mile version of the race is 40 hours overall, which averages out to approximately 13 hours and 20 minutes per loop. Since the race's inception in 1986, only ten runners (Mark Williams 1995, David Horton and Blake Wood 2001, Ted "Cave Dog" Keizer 2003, Jim Nelson and Mike Tilden 2004, Brian Robinson 2008 (course record 55:42:27), Andrew Thompson 2009, Jonathan Basham 2010, Brett Maune 2011) out of about 700 have completed the 100 Mile race within the official 60 hour cut-off. In 2006 nobody finished even the 60 Mile Fun Run in under 40 hours. The best women's achievement is Sue Johnston's 66 miles (106 km) in 2001. More than 30 competitors failed to reach first book (2 miles).

The race is limited to 35 runners and usually fills up quickly the day registration opens. Potential entrants must complete an essay on "Why I Should be Allowed to Run in the Barkley."

The course was designed by Gary Cantrell. His idea for the race was inspired upon hearing about Martin Luther King, Jr's assassin James Earl Ray escaping from prison, and making it only 8 miles (13 km) after running 55 hours in the woods. Cantrell said to himself "I could do at least 100 miles." Thus, the Barkley Marathon was born.

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And in case you haven't already have a look at this 'race write up' by one of the many supremely fit failures here --> http://www.runnersworld.com/cda/micr...X2X3-4,00.html. Be sure to do two or three 'easier' routes in your training next year... like the High Peak Marathon, the Fellsman, the Lakeland 100 with maybe a BGR thrown in to be on the safe side ;)

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

The orienteering sounds a great idea. The bit simon is all of it i suppose you know you're in the back end of nowhere with just your map and compass and whatever you can carry no aid stations. You live or die on your own ability. Liberating.

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I get that Matt, but you don't need to go all the way over there to achieve it in some seemingly mad as snakes race.

You need to check out the LDWA website and run some of the routes listed. Maybe Derwent Valley Skyline would be a good starting point as there isn't too much climb but it does take you out into some relatively desolate parts that will test your navigation if you aren't content to just follow your nose. Plus its a good distance at 26 miles. Build on this with some of the aforementioned runs with more ascent like the Kinder Dozen or Killer. Whilst Stolly's comment above is followed with a smiley face, there's nothing flippant about the point he's actually making. You need experience of being out there on your own under intense circumstances. Are you going to be doing some of these routes in the interim?

How is your training in general going?

I know what you're saying Simon but mad as snakes is what is required for a 30 th Birthday and last run before married. What is the fun in going into something that you know you can finish. Bipolar Boy and Bro on a mission.

I love Nicky's comment on the Trigger website.
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Ian Winterburn from Everything Outdoors has kindly donated a place on his Navigation Course as a Spot Prize. We have yet to decide how this could be awarded but be warned if you end up in Glossop on race day that it could be coming your way and attendance would be mandatory!