Another 'water' related one..

It's a good job I have no shame really...here goes:
One of the wide range of weird symptoms I've suffered from in the last couple of years is 'urinary urgency' and partial incontinence. I'm 43, never had kids and take my pelvic floor excersises quite seriously but this particular problem started quite suddenly in December 2009 (I was NOT running at the time). It comes and goes. I don't get stress incontinence.
Having struggled with this 'issue' for a while I finally gave in and took GP's advice to see a gynae.

So on Monday morning I got the following proffessional advice: Stop drinking so much fluid (2.2 l a day or thereabouts; no fizzy drinks, no caffeine, no alchohol - but really I'm not as dull as that sounds:o) and stop running (:mad:)

Apparently "my aging body is exhausted with all this running about" and I shouldn't keep "trying to do something I could do well at 25".

So I came away feeling about 20 years older than when I went in, ( Is 43 really that old?) and wondering about what you guys drink on a daily basis. Is 2.2 litres a HUGE amount? I didn't think my weekly mileage was particularily high, certainly compared to what a lot of runners on here do. (Max.30m a week)

Anyone got any better ideas? Am feeling utterly p##### (no pun intended) off about the medic's approach, but hey, he's the proffessional right? :confused:
Cheers,

I think 2.2 litres is a lot if that excludes tea/coffee, fruit and vegetables, but for some people it may be OK. Bet you get a great deal of advice on this one!

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Originally Posted by Chris K

I think 2.2 litres is a lot if that excludes tea/coffee, fruit and vegetables, but for some people it may be OK. Bet you get a great deal of advice on this one!

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It does include a lot of decaff coffee...hey, I like the stuff! But that's my total fluid intake for the day. I'm not very good on the fruit and veg front to be honest, so there wouldn't be a lot to consider there...maybe 1 banana a day?
OH, and I like soup but didn't count that either; just stuff that went in a mug...

Hi Daisy,
I'm a GP myself and this sounds like overactive bladder syndrome, see the following link:

http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Over...r-Syndrome.htm

One non-drug option is as you have said cut down on stimulants (caffeine, alcohol etc), you already do your pelvic floor exercises but another commonly tried option is "bladder training" where you force yourself to hold out for as long as you can before going to the toilet. It is supposed to desensitise the bladder a bit I think.
Hope you find the website useful and good luck with it!
Mark

Thanks Mark. I'll go and have a look at the link in a mo.

What i really want to hear I suppose is that I don't have to stop running...

Hopefully not, it must be the "jiggling" motion of running that exacerbates the problem, hopefully with bladder training that will settle. Also your history is intermittent so that is a good sign that you are likely to respond well.

Just read the link, Mark. Rang lots of bells, so thanks again for pointing me in the right direction :thumbup:
Oddly, I don't really seem to suffer this much when out running. Certainly not as much as some of my running pals do who have kids...On the other hand this maybe becasue I take an 'insurance leak' as a matter of course these days...again, this bladder training article addresses that and I'm going to get religious about it!
It turns out I'm also Hyper-reflexive (didnt' use to be but am now...) - does a hyper-reflexive tendon reflex ever relate to a hyper-reflexive bladder?

Never heard of it but then again I never say never in medicine, there's always the exception.....

Hi Daisy, 2 very important messages from me: (1) DON'T STOP RUNNING and (2) Don't have an operation unless you have tried every other possibility - they often make things worse, sometimes MUCH worse. Have you been checked for prolapse? Have you seen a specialist physio? Have you done a 24 hour fluid intake/output monitoring? Do you brace your core & pelvic muscles whenever you lift anything heavy?

I became aware of my prolapse a few years ago (I am 69 and have had one child - both risk factors). Now I have had a ring pessary fitted, drink less and avoid caffeinated drinks before going out. These have all helped tremendously. I still train with weights, but very carefully, and I regularly run up to 13 miles (hope to get up to 15 soon). I do still need to retire into the bushes during long runs or walks, but that seems to be pretty normal for older women. Initially I was very nervous that running might make things worse, and no professional could tell me whether it would or wouldn't. I don't think the research has been done.

Anything a medical professional tells you, you should IMO check carefully against what you can read on reputable sites on the internet. It is NOT the case that because they are doctors they know. Most modern GPs are deeply ignorant about pessaries, because patients have tended to be encouraged onto a conveyor belt towards operations. (In these cash-strapped days, that trend my be weakening.) Consultants and surgeons have an almost insane optimism about the operations they carry out. Maybe they have to be like that in order to do their work. One specialist physio, very helpful in other ways, told me I would probably have to give up not only running but WALKING!!! One registrar told me, when I objected that these operations have a 1 in 4 chance of leading to a 2nd, less successful op within 4 years, that actually the figures were worse - 1 in 2. And then at the end of the interview he said, "Well, if you find you want a PERMANENT solution, come back and discuss an op". Perhaps he thought it would be permanent because in 4 years I would be 73 and with any luck dead.

After several years I can say that running, short or long, up or down, fast or slow makes no difference whatever. (Obviously if I run with a full bladder, there may well be slight leakage, but that's a short term problem.) When weight training I can feel the stress of eg a chest press on my pelvic floor and I am very careful to brace it. It is a pity this advice is not routinely given to women starting weight training.

Wow, Alexandra - thats a brilliant post. Thanks so much for taking the time to put all that down - really appreciate it.
Promise I won't have an op! The Gynae didn't even suggest it - I honestly think he thought I was wasting his time with my trivial problems. However, I've jsut seen a GP on another issue and on hearing about the outcome of the 'consultation' she grimaced. I told her I wasn't going to pay any attention to the advice about stopping running and she said 'Good'.
I'm going to practise 'bladder training' - it seems a positive thing that I can get my head round and then see how it goes.
No they haven't done an intake/output test.
No one has suggested prolapses either, but I think that's becasue I'm 43 and haven't had children.
And yes, I brace! I dont' do weights or any gym work cos I just want to be out in the air and pattering about with the dog.

If I get nowhere with the retraining I'll ask about the prolapse thing.
Thanks so much for your input.

All the best,

Hi Daisy, I'm glad that was useful. You could do the input output test yourself if you can be bothered. Over 24 hours you just need to measure all the fluid you take in, and pee in a jug to measure what comes out each time. I put big black pen marks on the outside of the plastic jug I peed into so it was easy to see how much was in it. You write down the time you get up, then the times you pee and drink with the amounts in & out each time and the time you go to bed. You can make a chart with the hours of the day down one side and columns for drinks & pees. If you are out of the house, you are allowed to estimate, but I was a perfectionist, took the jug with me and measured in public loos and even behind the bushes. I also made a note of the "wet" foods I ate, as my food intake tends to be stuff like fruit, veg & porridge that is full of water. Some women, like me, are taking in too much fluid but more are getting too little, and that can lead to irritation. You can also see from your chart how long you last between pees - are you going too often, either because you feel you need to or because you have that habit. And you can see how much your bladder can hold. I realised that sometimes mine was holding over a litre - no wonder it had trouble coping! It was amazing, seeing that big jug full and knowing all that had been contained inside me. You might like to do the test to give yourself a baseline and then do it again after training for a while. Good luck!

its not only women daisy, my frequent pee stops are a standard joke among me and my running mates and as such i have to pick my courses carefully with oppertunities and my gp wasnt that intrested just keeps taking blood samples for prostate, not much help to your problem i know, just showing solidarity in the water department :)

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Originally Posted by old un

... just showing solidarity in the water department :)

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For me that was the most painful unintentional pun I've read in a while. Brought back memories of kidney stones...

oops sorry didnt think of that.................

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Originally Posted by old un

its not only women daisy, my frequent pee stops are a standard joke among me and my running mates and as such i have to pick my courses carefully with oppertunities and my gp wasnt that intrested just keeps taking blood samples for prostate, not much help to your problem i know, just showing solidarity in the water department :)

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Solid waterworks aside, Old 'un, I appreciate the thought! I did wonder if any of you guys were familiar with the problem...I mean at the end of the day, we've got more or less the same equipment (just fitted differently) so anything us girls suffer from is probably something that you guys tend to keep quiet about!! :o

And thanks all for the input - about my output ... :thumbup:

Resurrecting a very old thread . . . I seem to be among the male minority who have Overactive Bladder syndrome (see https://patient.info/womens-health/l...r-syndrome-oab , as linked from post #4 on this thread), but only when out walking or cycling; I don't need to have a pee too often when I'm at home and, curiously, it's not a problem when I'm running. In fact, I usually know when I've been out for 1 hour on a cycle ride, because that's when I need to find a field entrance where I can go behind a hedge. The article on patient.info (linked above) doesn't mention physical activity as a cause.

On causes and treatments: my caffeine intake isn't huge (typically two mugs of tea and one of coffee in a day), and I would really miss my tea at breakfast time (the others could be cut out if necessary). The suggested "bladder training" wouldn't work for me because of another feature that isn't mentioned in the patient.info article: if I try to hold the pee, I soon start getting the urge to poo. And it's not just an urge: on one occasion on a walk, I did eventually stop to pee after holding it for a while, but as I started to pee, that was not the only excretion. A mistake never to be repeated.

Does this have something to do with perineal irritation from your bike saddle, given that it does not occur when running?

It is my understanding that bladder training does not actually increase bladder capacity, but just lets you know how long you can put up with the misery until the inevitable happens.

As to caffeine, it is a weak diuretic and can directly stimulate the bladder - is it worth trying decaffeinated tea/coffee, if you have not already done so?

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Does this have something to do with perineal irritation from your bike saddle, given that it does not occur when running?

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It does occur while walking, but not while running, although I first noticed it while cycling. There does seem to be a psychological element to the condition (the bladder sending misleading messages to the brain), so here's a hypothesis (without any evidential basis!).

Maybe it was initially caused by perineal irritation (the saddles on both of my bikes feel comfortable, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of something going on down there without me noticing). There then arose an association in my mind between prolonged moderate exercise and bladder discomfort (the intensity of my cycling is usually similar to a brisk walk, and much less than the intensity of my running), so I started feeling it while walking. But when running, the brain is too distracted by the more intense exercise.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

As to caffeine, it is a weak diuretic and can directly stimulate the bladder - is it worth trying decaffeinated tea/coffee, if you have not already done so?

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I've never tried decaffeinated beverages, due to a bias (without evidence) that they don't taste as good. Maybe I ought to try.

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Originally Posted by anthonykay

I've never tried decaffeinated beverages, due to a bias (without evidence) that they don't taste as good. Maybe I ought to try.

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De caff tea tastes like dirty dishwater

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

De caff tea tastes like dirty dishwater

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It's not all bad. My wife swears by rooibos tea. It's not Yorkshire but at least you get some kind of hit.

Yes, rooibos is good, but it's a completely different drink from the decaf tea that Mr B was referring to.