Just separating this from the Today's Gym Session thread, not necessarily my views:
Daily consumption of protein 1g/lb in weight.
Discuss ad nauseum...
:rolleyes:;)
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Just separating this from the Today's Gym Session thread, not necessarily my views:
Daily consumption of protein 1g/lb in weight.
Discuss ad nauseum...
:rolleyes:;)
Depends what you want to do - build muscle or piss out protein.Quote:
Originally Posted by southernsoftie
Different strokes for different folks - bodybuilders swear by the above, I reckon that its too much.
Didn't Franco Columbo take 10 musclebolin steroids with his 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight a day?
Even 1gm/kg is probably more than we need - and if it comes with animal fat ........
I used to try and keep up with all this crap, and nowadays I just eat what I want and try to include fruit and veg where possible. Nutrition advice is quite complicated and not necessarily all that useful anyway. It certainly never helped me out, just aggravated my crohns, resulting in a net weight loss every time I tried to eat the "recommended" amount of food to "gain lean muscle". I went through this phase in my teens and have so far not been bothered to try and revisit it.
I asked Eavesy a straight question but instead of answering it he lost his temper. Protein overdosing - which Eavesy was advising on the 'today's gym session' thread - was in full swing during the seventies. It came about because supplement companies who sold protein powders saw a way to take advantage of the tremendous change in physiques brought about by anabolic steroids. So they sponsored some of the top bodybuilders who in return promoted the protein lie.
Anyway that is how it started and that is how it is today. The same old nonsense spread from one generation to the next with the same old victims - usually teen age boys - getting hoodwinked by the new breed of steroid users.
I'm not too bothered about adults who are foolish enough to buy into the 'one gram per pound' philosophy; they get what they deserve for listening to iron heads and ignoring nutritional science. I think though that it is good to guide youngsters toward rational advice, so they can achieve their fitness goals safely and without wasting the little money they have.
I didn't lose my temper, far from it actually. Guess I just misinterpreted your response. Easily done really as you must admit you a have a history of being awkward, and argumentative. So if thats the case I offer my apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
In response to your question, they are bang against steroids and against protein supplements in the most part. I do see your point in terms of the liver and kidneys being under extra stress due to the increase in protein, but from what I've read this shouldn't be an issue unless you have a pre existing kidney, or liver problem. That didn't come from the sources that suggest 1g of protein per lb bogy weight.
So what would you recommend in terms of protein?
Journel of international society of sports nutrition position stand: protein and exercise. Published in 2007Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
http://www.jissn.com/content/4/1/8
If you can't be bothered to read it all:
"It is the position of the International Society of Sports Nutrition that exercising individuals need approximately 1.4 to 2.0 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per day"
So thats 0.7 to 1g of protein per 1.1023 lbs of bodyweight. Pretty much what I was recommended.
I believe kidney function tends to decline steadily with age, until in late middle age it is fairly normal for it to be half what it was at a person's peak. This makes me think that those of us who are somewhat over the hill should be careful not to stress our poor old kidneys too much. How stressful 1g of protein per kg/lb would be I have no idea, but would very much like to know. I certainly would never consider taking protein supplements.Quote:
Originally Posted by eavesy187
Regarding the liver, I read that it has to work hard after exercise to eliminate the oxidants that produces, and that consuming alcohol straight after exercise will retard recovery because the liver proritises dealing with that first. I wonder if eating a lot of protein might pose similar problems.
I've read it. This society has taken a 'play it safe' approach which ends up being nothing of the sort. Proper isotope tracer experiments have shown a requirement of 30 grams of protein a day. That is 1/5 of that recommended at the upper level by this society. So their position is 'play it safe' and take 5 times more than proper experiments demonstrate. It is nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by eavesy187
Any athlete taking 1 gram per pound of weight in protein will find they have little appetite for the important fuel - carbohydrate. Their bodies will then be forced in to converting the excessive protein in to fat, sugar and some toxic compounds that make them smell.......... very badly indeed.
I noticed in that paper that some researchers believe that athletes actually require less protein than sedentary individuals. I think this is plausible because of the adaptions taking place during exercise.
As far as I'm concerned if your carbohydrate consumption is high enough your protein requirements will be very low. Carbohydrates are the fundamental muscle building fuels and are far more important than over dosing on protein.
Thanks Chris, that's the type of answer i was hoping for in the first place. Wouldn't it be fair to say from the recommendation of 30g protein per day that we are all overdosing? As an average chicken breast contains about 30g.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
What would your daily macro recommendation be?
And can you point me in the direction of these research papers you speak of so I can take a look at them.
Ta
Is 30g right for everyone? No adaptation for size / weight / gender? And can I take it that, as I DON'T smell bad I am not currently eating too much protein?
Chris, i usually follow up a run with a proshake to help my muscle repair process (24g per shake). I've never heard of carbs contributing to muscle build before, i thought they were stored by the body as a fuel source in whatever form. Are you saying that i could increase muscle build by carb loading? If so how? I only run short distance so i have no current carb loading 'program'.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Got you all thinking now hey?
Yes, it's lack of power that lets me down!Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
If you are eating 5 times the amount of protein than is necessary, then I'd say that was overdosing, although that may not be the appropriate term. My macro recommendation would be around 30 grams for a 70kg man on a mixed diet.Quote:
Originally Posted by eavesy187
If you look in the Guinness book of sports medicine they say the requirement is as little as 20 grams.
Diet is secondary. If you aren't training hard enough to stimulate growth and resting long enough so growth can take place, then no diet in the world is going to make any difference. Anyway if you were building a brick wall it would take energy to move the bricks into place. Some of that energy comes from sugar. Likewise inside the body the building blocks of greater muscular size require energy to move them into place.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Christopher, I'm trying to bulk up (aged 20) and all the advice I've been given is to take on extra protein. My mate's taken it further - he saw some boxer drinking his own piss as part of his training regime so he started drinking his own love juice which he said is high in protein and other nutrients. Would you recommend this?Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
If not do you have any other suggestions?
I know this is a separate argument - but I'm mystified why anyone involved in endurance sports like fellrunning or cycling would want to bulk up?
It just adds weight and detracts from endurance performance as far as I can see.
If you race then yes it's an issue. However if you don't and just enjoy being out in the hills or on your bike then it's no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
Though Dean Karanzes isn't exactly small
http://tosic.com/wp-content/uploads/...n-karnazes.jpg
And he does alright
OK yeah fair enough.
I'm not exactly trying for the Tyrannosaurus Rex cycling look myself.
I always found BMF gave me a good sort of all-round fitness and strength - but even that probably bulked up arms and shoulders a bit more than I strictly wanted.
Anyway, as you were ....
Actually your cardiovascular ability is partly dependent on the amount of muscle you have. Having too much bulk though is definitely a hindrance in most endurance sports because of the loss of efficiency. In cycling it is a little different because your weight is supported and also because of the selection of gears that allows you to reduce cadence.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
Leaving competiton aside for a moment if you gain a stone of muscle and add this to the legs without any loss of speed over a time of 30-60mins then you are far far fitter than you were when you were a stone lighter.
All about a balanced approach to fitness. Could I be a better runner if I dedicated as much time to running as I did in the gym, instead of splitting it as I currently do? Maybe - slightly confused by the fact that a lot of my training is interval or circuit based and is designed to build aerobic endurance & increase VO2 max as well as overall strength; it may benefit my overall fitness and improve my running. Case in point: whilst out with ITB last few months was hitting rower hard to improve 2k PB. Get back running, and without too much effort, setting PBs round all my regular running routes. Happy days.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
Personally, for me it's partly a body image thing stemming back to when I was a scrawny (very scrawny) kid. I've since learned to love the confidence I get from being a bit bigger; the improvements in my posture meaning I look the world in the face; the fact that despite being able to run long distances, I can still heft heavy things round the house (washing machines, fridge-freezers, furniture, concrete paving slabs...) until the cows come home; etc.
Coupled with this though, I love the self-sufficiency and independence that running long distances in the wild both implies & affords, the connection with nature, the cameraderie & social side as well as the solitude...
As eavesy said with the e.g. of Mr Karnazes, one does not preclude the other. Main questions if looking to achieve both, are: can you adequately train for both, can you realistically refuel for both, and can you allow yourself adequate recovery time?
Hence talking about help from other sources like protein supplements.
I get you SS.
As you know I was a big fan of (outdoor) circuit training - but mainly to improve aerobic / CV fitness, and to 'tone-up' while staying lean. Not to bulk up.
Each to their own though.
I think part of the problem may be defining 'bulking up'. At 6'1" & 12st I'm hardly a beast, and probably fall into the category of lean(ish!:o) as opposed to muscly/beefy. I'm not talking about going for the pro-body builder look. But anything that requires me to put on weight in the form of muscle I would class as bulking up. Another 1/0.5st might not go amiss (and I could probably carry without looking ridiculous).Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
I guess it's all relative: against a 10st racing snake I probably look huge, next to a rower or rugby player, I'm a tiddler.
From what I understand, the increase in strength will more than compensate for the extra bulk (obviously within reason). I agree with CL again, which is happening a lot lately for some reason....Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
not if it's the upper body!! or I suspect the lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Furness
The last thing you should be doing if you want to improve endurance efforts or general CV fitness, is spend time in the gym bulking up arms, chest and shoulders - not rocket science is it? .... but then also not what this thread was about! So I'll take me oar out.
Interesting though, why not start new thread, pose the question & see what happens?;)
This may have come up before, but due to my ITB problems i only run once a week. Whether it be a race or a training run, either way i run hard enough to feel DOMS for a few days so i like to take the opportunity to help maximise muscle build in view of this. I seem to have tuned my legs to go very fast for anything up to about 5 miles. When i did Skiddaw, 8.5 miles, i was on my arse at around the 6.5 mile mark and i was reduced to a walk up the very gentle slope into the park!Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
I had that problem at the Skiddaw race in 2006. I had to walk the last 200meters and thought I was on death's door. Seriously it was 32 degrees in Fitz park and well over that on the mountain. The time I ran that day was 8 minutes slower than my best, but I was glad just to have survived.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
If we are talking about real food as opposed to supplements, lots of foods that are considered as carbs, also contain protein. Often not with the full range of amino acids but still protein.
Chuck some peas in with your rice or put beans on some toast and you have got a carbo protein superfood;)
Just a thought