Overtraining

My performances are appaling at the moment, last night I was three minutes slower than last year at Kettleshulme. At Knowl Hill last weekend I was six minutes slower than people I was beating by more than a minute at Wardle Skyline. These two races are symptomatic of a run of poor performances since April.

If I wasn't training I'd understand, but I've trained consistently since last year completing events like the HPM and TWA. I'm thinner and I'm still in my twenties (just) i should be improving, so why am I getting worse?

I had a long run of tough lakes races in April cullminating in a disaster a Coniston where I almost DNF. I then ran Mount Famine and also had an appalling run.

After Famine I thought I'd over done it with my Lakes antics and had a week off - I then did the OCT but my partner and I got timed out.

Since then I've had the odd week off, but I can't shake the malaise and Kettleshulme last night is the last straw.

I don't know what to do, I love running, but having so many bad performances is getting me down. I've got a lot of stress at work at the moment and when your hobby makes you depressed there really is no where else to turn.

Sorry for the length of this post. Any advice is much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

My performances are appaling at the moment, last night I was three minutes slower than last year at Kettleshulme. At Knowl Hill last weekend I was six minutes slower than people I was beating by more than a minute at Wardle Skyline. These two races are symptomatic of a run of poor performances since April.

If I wasn't training I'd understand, but I've trained consistently since last year completing events like the HPM and TWA. I'm thinner and I'm still in my twenties (just) i should be improving, so why am I getting worse?

I had a long run of tough lakes races in April cullminating in a disaster a Coniston where I almost DNF. I then ran Mount Famine and also had an appalling run.

After Famine I thought I'd over done it with my Lakes antics and had a week off - I then did the OCT but my partner and I got timed out.

Since then I've had the odd week off, but I can't shake the malaise and Kettleshulme last night is the last straw.

I don't know what to do, I love running, but having so many bad performances is getting me down. I've got a lot of stress at work at the moment and when your hobby makes you depressed there really is no where else to turn.

Sorry for the length of this post. Any advice is much appreciated.

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I am certainly nothing but a novice to this fell lark but sounds like stress to me. Sometimes something has to give. Yes you are not beating your bests but...why worry? It's a hobby at the end of the day. You are out doing what you enjoy. You enjoy it you say. Just do it for that reason for a bit and dont sweat the performances. Stress at work followed by more stress you do for enjoyment...Not a good recipe bud and I personally dont think it helps your performance. Uses up energy being up tight especially if you are feeling that way at races.

The technical why and were fore's I'll leave to those in the know.
You cant PB everytime. Could be you are just in a lull. It'll come good.

Also forgot to add...Is it worth changing how you train a bit. Bit of something different to give the body a new pattern it needs to adapt to...?

I know we discussed this the other week, so I should know the answer to this question, but...

How much speed work are you doing? (intervals, reps, sprints etc). It sounds from your post like you're doing a lot of distance training.

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Originally Posted by noel

I know we discussed this the other week, so I should know the answer to this question, but...

How much speed work are you doing? (intervals, reps, sprints etc). It sounds from your post like you're doing a lot of distance training.

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I haven't been doing loads of speedwork admittedly. I did think maybe I've trained myself for long slow stuff and the shorter races are suffering because of it. We'll see at the Great Lakes I suppose!

It's funny because around the time of Famine I was displaying all the classic symptoms of over training, but now I don't feel too bad but my performances are still atrocious.

I'm thinking of taking a month off from racing after the Great Lakes, not running at all for two weeks and then build it back up gently.

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

I haven't been doing loads of speedwork admittedly. I did think maybe I've trained myself for long slow stuff and the shorter races are suffering because of it. We'll see at the Great Lakes I suppose!

It's funny because around the time of Famine I was displaying all the classic symptoms of over training, but now I don't feel too bad but my performances are still atrocious.

I'm thinking of taking a month off from racing after the Great Lakes, not running at all for two weeks and then build it back up gently.

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I wouldn't take too much time off. All that long slow stuff should be great as a base for the more intense shorter stuff that will really boost your speed. It would be a shame not to capitalise on all the hard work you've been doing. Good luck at Great Lakes. :)

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Originally Posted by noel

I wouldn't take too much time off. All that long slow stuff should be great as a base for the more intense shorter stuff that will really boost your speed. It would be a shame not to capitalise on all the hard work you've been doing. Good luck at Great Lakes. :)

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Thanks Noel I hope I have built a base otherwise all that hard work has gone down the pan!!

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

My performances are appaling at the moment, last night I was three minutes slower than last year at Kettleshulme. At Knowl Hill last weekend I was six minutes slower than people I was beating by more than a minute at Wardle Skyline. These two races are symptomatic of a run of poor performances since April.

If I wasn't training I'd understand, but I've trained consistently since last year completing events like the HPM and TWA. I'm thinner and I'm still in my twenties (just) i should be improving, so why am I getting worse?

I had a long run of tough lakes races in April cullminating in a disaster a Coniston where I almost DNF. I then ran Mount Famine and also had an appalling run.

After Famine I thought I'd over done it with my Lakes antics and had a week off - I then did the OCT but my partner and I got timed out.

Since then I've had the odd week off, but I can't shake the malaise and Kettleshulme last night is the last straw.

I don't know what to do, I love running, but having so many bad performances is getting me down. I've got a lot of stress at work at the moment and when your hobby makes you depressed there really is no where else to turn.

Sorry for the length of this post. Any advice is much appreciated.

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It's time to have blood drawn Dan. Of particular interest are iron, folate and B12. Also ask the doc to check your thyroid hormones. When the results come back the doc will go through them with you but also ask for a print out of the results so you can get someone with knowledge of blood results in athletes to have a second look.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

It's time to have blood drawn Dan. Of particular interest are iron, folate and B12. Also ask the doc to check your thyroid hormones. When the results come back the doc will go through them with you but also ask for a print out of the results so you can get someone with knowledge of blood results in athletes to have a second look.

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Chris I did have a blood test and it came back normal I haven't had a print out though. I do know my thyroid is fine because I asked them to check for that specifically.

I've also started taking a daily iron supplement and some Vit C effervescent with B12. Truth be told I do feel better than I did at Mount Famine, but obviously there's something not right for me to be putting in such bad performances regularly.

Two weeks complete rest or active recovery that's the question...

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

Chris I did have a blood test and it came back normal I haven't had a print out though. I do know my thyroid is fine because I asked them to check for that specifically.

I've also started taking a daily iron supplement and some Vit C effervescent with B12. Truth be told I do feel better than I did at Mount Famine, but obviously there's something not right for me to be putting in such bad performances regularly.

Two weeks complete rest or active recovery that's the question...

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Phone the surgery and ask for a print out of the results. This will show what they tested and didn't test for. On the vitamin front I would take something with a full complex of vitamins and minerals rather than one with just a few things in it.

The only other things I can think of that are causing your lack of performance are not enough sleep and being on some dodgy diet, like Atkins, that deprives you of carbohydrate.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Phone the surgery and ask for a print out of the results. This will show what they tested and didn't test for. On the vitamin front I would take something with a full complx of vitamins and minerals rather than one with just a few things in it.

The only other things I can think of that are causing your lack of performance are not enough sleep and being on some dodgy diet, like atkins, that deprives you of carbohydrate.

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No dodgy diets I'll give the surgery a ring.

Stress and running do not mix for me, i'd just lay off the racing for a bit like you have said and just get back to enjoying running again and not worrying about pace or distance for a while, you'll soon be back

Hi Dan - oh dear !!
I can sympathise with you as - around 5 years ago - my performances started to go downhill, but they were linked to an irritable tummy when running.
So, I switched to Mountain Biking - competitively too - short and long (up to 24h). The biking helped my tummy and meant I could race hard but additionally it gave me a good boost to hard speed work - as Noel suggests.
My legs then felt better when I tried to run, but alas the tummy wasn't good.
I then joined a local road bike club and worked up to their (very) fast training rides. There's no way I could have kept up with them at the start but now I find it easy.
These hard road sessions are the single best thing I've ever had to boost my running.
My quads have come on leaps and bounds (even though I always used to do 8h+ runs with relative ease) and clearly top end speed (uphill running) is now easy.
My tummy is now sorted, so I am mixing very hard road riding with very hard hill running sessions. I don't run more than 1-2 times a week but have never run as well.
I am a firm believer of the downsides to over training. I seemingly train very little, but every now and again I throw in the odd 30+mile run and that just keeps the long distance ticking over (it's hard to lose long distance endurance as someone above intimates).
The other big help to my running has been stretching. What with more cycling my hamstrings were shortening and hence running downhill I found I couldn't really stretch out the legs. I've got that nailed now.

Conclusion ? Well, I've prattled on a bit but I thoroughly recommend short very hard training mixed with the occasional very long run. Not much chance of overtraining with no more than 3 sessions a week. My legs are physically empty after most of my training sessions now when they never used to be (when I just drifted along doing 10 mile runs here and there just to get the miles in).

Also - train on no food. Use food for races.

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Originally Posted by AlanB

Hi Dan - oh dear !!
I can sympathise with you as - around 5 years ago - my performances started to go downhill, but they were linked to an irritable tummy when running.
So, I switched to Mountain Biking - competitively too - short and long (up to 24h). The biking helped my tummy and meant I could race hard but additionally it gave me a good boost to hard speed work - as Noel suggests.
My legs then felt better when I tried to run, but alas the tummy wasn't good.
I then joined a local road bike club and worked up to their (very) fast training rides. There's no way I could have kept up with them at the start but now I find it easy.
These hard road sessions are the single best thing I've ever had to boost my running.
My quads have come on leaps and bounds (even though I always used to do 8h+ runs with relative ease) and clearly top end speed (uphill running) is now easy.
My tummy is now sorted, so I am mixing very hard road riding with very hard hill running sessions. I don't run more than 1-2 times a week but have never run as well.
I am a firm believer of the downsides to over training. I seemingly train very little, but every now and again I throw in the odd 30+mile run and that just keeps the long distance ticking over (it's hard to lose long distance endurance as someone above intimates).
The other big help to my running has been stretching. What with more cycling my hamstrings were shortening and hence running downhill I found I couldn't really stretch out the legs. I've got that nailed now.

Conclusion ? Well, I've prattled on a bit but I thoroughly recommend short very hard training mixed with the occasional very long run. Not much chance of overtraining with no more than 3 sessions a week. My legs are physically empty after most of my training sessions now when they never used to be (when I just drifted along doing 10 mile runs here and there just to get the miles in).

Also - train on no food. Use food for races.

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It's funny you should mention cycling because as a teenager I rode to an extremely high level. I think that's part of the reason I'm finding my running regression so frustrating, you think to yourself "I've won this and that on a bike and rode on this squad, but I'm completely shite at running!". To be fair I had a solid ten years of abusing myself between stopping cycling and starting running so maybe I've ruined my CV system...

I do think cycling could be part of the solution though.

My advice - for what it's worth - is to stop racing, stop measuring your runs and just run for fun. You love it - so do it for it's own sake and not for results. Run slowly, take in the view; walk if you feel like it. Hope you get your mojo back soon!

You can't go off your time in fell races either. The times are all going to be down at the moment as the weather has been so wet. You could quite easily lose 5 mins per hour dependent on the terrain.

If you want a regular check of your fitness, find a 4 - 6 mile route you can tempo every now and again on road. You will have some consistency to make a comparison with then.

Chris was on the right track I thought, but it does seem like you have that covered.

Feroglobin
http://www.vitabiotics.com/Feroglobi...d_proinfo.aspx
is a decent supplement to take.

In general, I have to say that when I train fast I run faster and I've had a lack of tempo in the last year or so and done much more longer slower stuff. That means I can get round a 2 - 3 hour run fine, but I was in bits after a 5K trail a few weeks ago that was 22:15 and nearly 2 minutes of my best time.

So having missed Duddon, I've decided to get some more tempo in for a few weeks and see how it goes, then try and get a better balance.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

You can't go off your time in fell races either. The times are all going to be down at the moment as the weather has been so wet. You could quite easily lose 5 mins per hour dependent on the terrain.

If you want a regular check of your fitness, find a 4 - 6 mile route you can tempo every now and again on road. You will have some consistency to make a comparison with then.

Chris was on the right track I thought, but it does seem like you have that covered.

Feroglobin
http://www.vitabiotics.com/Feroglobi...d_proinfo.aspx
is a decent supplement to take.

In general, I have to say that when I train fast I run faster and I've had a lack of tempo in the last year or so and done much more longer slower stuff. That means I can get round a 2 - 3 hour run fine, but I was in bits after a 5K trail a few weeks ago that was 22:15 and nearly 2 minutes of my best time.

So having missed Duddon, I've decided to get some more tempo in for a few weeks and see how it goes, then try and get a better balance.

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Cheers I'll have a look at that supplement. I've asked the docs for a print out too £10 the robbing b#stards. Anyone got any ideas what I should be looking for?

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

To be fair I had a solid ten years of abusing myself between stopping cycling and starting running

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I dread to think how many socks there are under your bed :))

It's very difficult on the forum to give advice to people who ask for it because often they don't tell the whole story. In general though I'd say if one is doing all the usual things in training at the same body weight and the average pace has dropped daily by a significant amount in a short period of time, then something is wrong. So if you normally 'cruise' around your 10 mile road runs in 60 minutes and now it's taking 80 minutes or even 70 minutes then it's time for a check up.

The term 'overtraining' refers to something very specific. For instance an athlete's performance may drop because of anemia; that in itself doesn't constitute overtraining because overtraining wasn't the cause.

The best definition of 'overtraining' was given by Mike Mentzer some time ago. He said it was doing more training than the minimum amount required to achieve a goal. So in running terms if ultimate fitness for a particular athlete is brought about by 5 hours of carefully selected exercise a week and you go out and do 10 hours a week, then that is overtraining. It also means selecting the best type of exercises from those available. So if you only run to run you might need an hour a day but if you combine it with other methods you may only need 45 minutes a day.

Thinking like this not only frees up valuable time but makes one a better athlete which is the whole point of competition.

I have a plan. I'm going to run the Great Lakes tomorrow, but that will be my last race for about a month. I can't rest completely I will go mad so I'm planning to spend two weeks alternating a 20 minute very gentle jog one day and a gentle bike ride the next.

After that two weeks I'll start running properly, but no speed work just run on the fells with the club and on my own at a steady pace. Then I'll do a park run and see where I am....

In the meantime I'm going to get a print out of my blood test, talk to someone who knows what they're on about and start taking WPs supplement suggestion.

What does anyone think about the plan? Does it sound sensible or should I rest? How much fitness will I lose?

Go for it Dan - The Great Lakes run is too good to miss I'm sure !

One thing I meant to say but didn't is that in training - riding and running with others has helped me tremendously. I have always always always trained on my own. Until recently.

Running on your own = Motivationally tricky to go fast.
Running with others = Pushed just a bit faster than you're comfortable with = Improvement

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

I have a plan. I'm going to run the Great Lakes tomorrow, but that will be my last race for about a month. I can't rest completely I will go mad so I'm planning to spend two weeks alternating a 20 minute very gentle jog one day and a gentle bike ride the next.

After that two weeks I'll start running properly, but no speed work just run on the fells with the club and on my own at a steady pace. Then I'll do a park run and see where I am....

In the meantime I'm going to get a print out of my blood test, talk to someone who knows what they're on about and start taking WPs supplement suggestion.

What does anyone think about the plan? Does it sound sensible or should I rest? How much fitness will I lose?

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I disagree with the advice to take a multivitamin - have a healthy diet instead. Chemical vitamins are different from natural vitamins and there is no evidence they benefit healthy people, indeed there is some evidence of harm, particularly in smokers. If tests show you are vitamin deficient then you need to find out why, rather than simply replacing what is missing.

Good luck doing The Great Lakes Run - it could be a bit wet!

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Originally Posted by Mike T

I disagree with the advice to take a multivitamin - have a healthy diet instead. Chemical vitamins are different from natural vitamins and there is no evidence they benefit healthy people, indeed there is some evidence of harm, particularly in smokers. If tests show you are vitamin deficient then you need to find out why, rather than simply replacing what is missing.

Good luck doing The Great Lakes Run - it could be a bit wet!

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That's a very fair point Mike. To be honest I have a pretty good diet, we usually make things from scratch I eat lots of fruit and veg, I'm not a veggie. We have the odd chippie tea and takeaway, but the bulk of our meals are home cooked.

This year is the first year I've done ultra distance stuff and tough AL races for the first time. I think I underestimated how much they take from your body, two days after running TWA I was doing a speed session with Sale Harriers and then Buttermere Sailbeck and then Coniston ect ect. In reality I've probably been pushing it too hard since the High Peak Marathon.

The thing which worries me most is that all the hard work I've put in at the start of this year might be wasted because I've pushed it too hard. What ever happens I've learnt a valuable lesson....

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

That's a very fair point Mike. To be honest I have a pretty good diet, we usually make things from scratch I eat lots of fruit and veg, I'm not a veggie. We have the odd chippie tea and takeaway, but the bulk of our meals are home cooked.

This year is the first year I've done ultra distance stuff and tough AL races for the first time. I think I underestimated how much they take from your body, two days after running TWA I was doing a speed session with Sale Harriers and then Buttermere Sailbeck and then Coniston ect ect. In reality I've probably been pushing it too hard since the High Peak Marathon.

The thing which worries me most is that all the hard work I've put in at the start of this year might be wasted because I've pushed it too hard. What ever happens I've learnt a valuable lesson....

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Speaking from my own experience I would say you are much better off taking a couple of weeks off now, and playing it safe, then to risk making things worse and finding yourself unable to train for months.

This may sound a bit negative, and it probably is. I was in the best form of my life 14 months ago, and didn't listen to my body after doing the 3 peaks, and kept training and racing hard all summer, despite feeling washed out and over tired, and race performances not being what I would have expected. Eventually it all caught up with me and I got ill, and I've basically had one illness after another since then. I've trained for about 2 months of the last 6.

The last 6 months may just be one of those things, but I wish I'd listened to my body a bit and had a couple of weeks off after 3 peaks.

It sounds like you've done quite a lot this year. (bit jealous :) ) If you're not used to it you probably need a break, and would benefit from it. You do see some people doing all the big races, and all the other races week in week out, but they have probably been doing it for years and are better equipped.

Hope you get sorted soon.

RP.

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Originally Posted by Mr Ricepudding

Speaking from my own experience I would say you are much better off taking a couple of weeks off now, and playing it safe, then to risk making things worse and finding yourself unable to train for months.

This may sound a bit negative, and it probably is. I was in the best form of my life 14 months ago, and didn't listen to my body after doing the 3 peaks, and kept training and racing hard all summer, despite feeling washed out and over tired, and race performances not being what I would have expected. Eventually it all caught up with me and I got ill, and I've basically had one illness after another since then. I've trained for about 2 months of the last 6.

The last 6 months may just be one of those things, but I wish I'd listened to my body a bit and had a couple of weeks off after 3 peaks.

It sounds like you've done quite a lot this year. (bit jealous :) ) If you're not used to it you probably need a break, and would benefit from it. You do see some people doing all the big races, and all the other races week in week out, but they have probably been doing it for years and are better equipped.

Hope you get sorted soon.

RP.

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Sorry to hear that RP. I'm definitely taking time off after the Great Lakes it's just a case of whether it's complete rest or very gentle exercise. I read somewhere that active rest, very very easy jogging or swimming/cycling can actually help you recover quicker. I'm not sure though.

i always think very easy active recovery benefits myself a lot more than complete rest. i find it keeps you supple and just keeps everything ticking over.

Come on Dan you know I won't let you get away with that. It's etc. innit? You have obviously been overdoing it.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

I disagree with the advice to take a multivitamin - have a healthy diet instead. Chemical vitamins are different from natural vitamins and there is no evidence they benefit healthy people, indeed there is some evidence of harm, particularly in smokers. If tests show you are vitamin deficient then you need to find out why, rather than simply replacing what is missing.

Good luck doing The Great Lakes Run - it could be a bit wet!

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But Mike on the beetroot thread you told us you were chugging concentrated beetroot juice in an attempt to boost your performance. Not only that but you also advocated to a forumite to take fish oil capsules. So you clearly aren't just a 'have a healthy diet' person as you believe in taking supplements on top of a normal diet.

As far as vitamins and minerals are concerned I don't believe a low dose multi vitamin and mineral tablet is harmful even in healthy individuals. I also don't believe they are necessary in individuals who are getting all the nutrients from food. For some individuals though they are necessary. I know because I've seen the transformation with my own eyes. Recently a friend went to the doctor, yet again, about chronic fatigue caused in the past by excessive exercise. Whilst there he asked him if taking vitamins would help. The doctor said something to the effect of " there is no evidence to show they work." Anyway he did agree to run some new blood tests and when the results returned they showed a low folate level. Even at that point the doctor still didn't advise the taking of a supplement because he'd already stated his views on them and couldn't be shown to be contradicting that even if it meant the patient suffering for an unnecessary period. When he told me I advised him to 'nip it in the bud' and get some folic acid tablets. He took them and after a short period miraculously recovered.

I almost couldn't believe it. A little mineral like that could have so much influence. It's all well and good telling athletes to get a healthy diet but often they won't/can't. I find this true especially with vegetarians and others that don't like meat. For those people supplements are a useful addition to the diet to ensure they get the vitamins and minerals they need.

One last point. All vitamins and minerals are chemicals, regardless of whether they occur naturally or are man made. They have also been used for decades to overcome deficiencies and are very potent in that respect. The research about them in healthy people has been contradictory for ages. For instance I did read that each cigarette smoked utilises 25mg of vit-c, implying that smokers need more, not less, vit-c. Of course reading and believing are often different things and what one individual believes isn't always what another one does.

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Originally Posted by Grouse

Come on Dan you know I won't let you get away with that. It's etc. innit? You have obviously been overdoing it.

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Its not joust my runnnning thats sufering Jon....

So eye can sea. Maybe you should try sum vitomin tables then.