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Just wanted to put the question to the fell running community.
Should any person who lost there dibber trying to prevent themselves and others drowning be forced to pay 30. One if my fellow Todmorden harriers had been told she had to pay this. 2 points here. Number 1 is the cost price if a dibber 30 quid? Was it really her fault??
In my opinion all those who took part in great lakes including the marshalls and organising team deserve a pat on the back not a charge.
They are expensive, and someone has to pay for it. Depends what was in the race conditions. If that states that lost dibbers must be paid for, then any discretion would be entirely up to the organiser. If I'm honest, I would be annoyed (mostly with myself for losing it) but would pay it.
That said, I don't think a public forum is the way to go about getting the organiser to change the rules. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.
Yes, dibbers are that expensive: https://www.sportident.co.uk/equipme...egory.php?id=1Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lloyd
Just bought myself one for orienteering.
As for the charge, I guess that's bad luck unfortunately. They aren't disposable and have to be reused for other events. If the cost of them is £30 and one is lost, who foots the bill for replacement - Sportident? the RO? or the competitor?
I know that at all O events, if you hire a dibber, it's made very clear beforehand that if you lose a dibber, you pay the charge for the replacement. I guess that's the same situation here.
Not saying that it's necessarily the most satisfactory outcome, especially given the circumstances under which the dibber was lost, but it's the way things are. I suspect that it would be the same if you hired a car and there was an accident that wasn't necessarily your fault, but there was no other clear party at fault. You would foot the bill.
Well if that was the only lost dibber today then they were very lucky.
I can fully appreciate the reasons for the charge under normal circumstances, but today wasn't normal circumstances. Sometimes it was a battle just to survive, never mind hold on to your dibber.
Crossing the Esk near the big bend, the water was above my navel at one point and I'm 6-1. It was a real struggle against the fast flowing water even in large groups.
A tiny elastic finger loop can't really be expected to be adequate in these conditions and think a neck loop (as used in some races ) would have been a better option.
I think it would be the decent thing to waive the charge in this case.
I lost mine on one of my many falls/slides down Pike o Blisco. I had no gripes about paying the £30; it was my responsibility to get it back, whatever the reasons.
Good spirit shown today, good team work and general concern for fellow runners. Do wish some runners would take their navigation skills more seriously though. Great organisation and fantastic job done by the marshals.
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Originally Posted by Tubber
What had you attached the dibber to? I attached mine to the thumb hole on my waterproof top. Short of the strap breaking it was not going to come off. I saw some attached to fingers - not in my opinion a good choice where the terrain was so rough.
I used the finger loop provided for mine, had it on my middle finger but up the back of it. Meant that it was a quick dib at the CP's, but been on the back meant I didn't keep scraping it on the rocks etc every time I put my hands down, which was a hell of a lot. Took a swim at one point and it stayed on fine. Voluntarily came down most of Blisco on my backside because it was quicker than trying to mince down to the river, got a nice pace going on the softer stuff and it survived that too.
I think if you lost it you pay for it, regardless of circumstances but yeah, it's a tough break if you lose it helping someone.
I understand why someone might think that £30 is a bit steep for a replacement, however it is always stated quite clearly that it is the responsibility of the individual athlete to take care of them and pay for the cost of replacement if lost. Therefore we can't really complain when that happens.
A lot of orienteers use a "backup" piece of "nylon type string" which goes through the dibber and fastens onto the wrist. I put mine through my watch strap. In order to lose mine, it has to come off my wrist without me noticing and either snap the indestructible string or my watch strap snap and the loop to come off my wrist withou me noticing it. I still have my original dibber - had it for ten years? Use it most weeks , sometimes twice a week.
Also when you do lose your own dibber, there is no arguing withe the organiser over who pays. How far off the day are we when it is common practice at middle/long races when the ident system is almost universally used? Whilst start up costs are quite significant, the benefits are huge. Instant results, an accurate record of who has gone through each checkpoint as a soon as the box is returned to the race hq. at orienteering events there are even radio controls out in the forest that relay back who has gon through and when. When people own their own dibber, you simply need to enter th number on the race entry form.
At some events when they give you dibbers, they fasten them to you with indestructible "paper" around the wrist. I have found these to be nigh on indestructible aswell, needing to be cut off at the race end. Saunders two day race and mountain trial- would be interesting to see the loss rate with these events.
I know there is an issue with slowing down to rob, but at middle and long races this should not be an issue
but are you given the choice to use a dibber or not? if you are forced to use one then in some circumstances the charge should be waivered as you have not choice in whether you take on the risk of losing it or not
http://www.compasspoint-online.co.uk...pe___misc.html
£ 1.80 for the dibber fastener, worth having in your kit?
I lost a flapjack in a wet fell race. Do you think it is fair I should be out of pocket or should the RO reimburse me? The conditions in the race were terrible, my flapjack was completely soaked before it got washed away;)
It depends whether it was an FRA sanctioned recipe, and whether you followed the recipe correctly. :closed:Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrt
Jacket pocket with zip done up?! Seems to work well with most things. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevinbyTorchlight
Bollocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by rocksteady
You have the choice of whether to race or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.amblesideac.org.uk/Great-Lakes_2012.htm
It's unfortunate that several people lost their dibbers today and I suppose fell runners are much less used to carrying one that orienteers. However, we were all warned before hand, personally I stuffed map, compass and dibber into a zipped pocket before climbing up the foxes tarn gully and the first two river crossings (it was a very soggy map afterwards!).
It might be worth someone going back up the final descent (I'm not volunteering) to collect the several dibbers that were lost whilst sliding down it.
totally agree with you. for gods sake I wish people would stop criticising RO's as pretty soon we wont have any races. if you dont like it then go and do something elseQuote:
Originally Posted by keever
Get all fell races to use one as a good saftey check as well as helping display splits etc. The everyone would have there own (as in orienteering) and be careful with it! (mine is a newer fast one, aout 50 quid and I have it on a wrist loop as well as the finger elastic.
Having started orienteering recently, in addition to fell running, I'm surprised that more fell races don't use them - it would take a lot of pressure off marshals - both in terms of recording numbers and in terms of how many marshals you require - since you can use unmanned CPs if required. With the newer dibbers, they are so quick at recording, that the "time lost" would be negligible - and it's the same for everyone anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennings
I guess the obstacle is the cost of buying the kit - but teaming up with orienteering clubs would help with that and very soon a lot of fell runners would buy their own dibbers for convenience (it only took me a few months of orienteering and paying the extra £1 or £2 on the entry fee to realise that it was worth buying my own).
No arguments on who has to pay the cost of buying a replacement then!
That's how most orienteers wear it - either on the first finger or on the middle finger - it's the quickest way to control boxes at the kites.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevinbyTorchlight
I'd buy one... I think it is a brilliant system! Used for quite a few cycling events I have done as well...
I have a Champion Chip as well. Every runner in the Netherlands that races regularly has one. It used to live permanently laced to my trainers, only to be swapped when new ones were bought. Cost: 30 Euro's. With every race entry you gave them your champion chip number and an accurate time would be recorded, including splits, depending on race length.
SI dibbers do the same thing. I am a RO, only of a short race mind, but were I to organise a long one, I'd love to be able to use the SI system. As said above, great way of keeping track of runners! If everyone had their own, like most orienteers, the system would be much more accessible to RO's as well... and it would solve the dilemma of who is responsible if one gets lost.
Although primarily the runner is responsible, no matter under what conditions the dibber is lost...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocksteady
I have to disagree, what you are both suggesting is that in extreme weather (when lost dibbers are likely to occur) the race organiser should agree to cover the cost of lost dibbers. In practice this would result in one of two things (or both). Firstly, race entry fees would increase dramatically (who would organise a race that not only takes a lot of hard work and time, but could leave you hugely out of pocket). Secondly, any poor weather or conditions would result in cancelled races by organisers not willing to risk said expense. Remember, they would have to assume that a large proportion of dibbers would get lost, just in case that happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by fellgazelle
Yes, paying £30 is annoying, and it would piss me off too. But, it's in the rules, it was lent out for the race, and if someone lost it then they have to pay for it. Simples.
A friend of mine lost a pair of x talons at a race last year (someone lifted them from outside the school hall the race hq was in) so her race cost her £70 or whatever more than everyone else, these things happen.
It was pretty clear before hand that if you lost your dibber you would have to pay £30, so yes, seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Wow wasn't expecting this response. Guess the answer is simple maybe we should all own our own and that way we are responsible for them. However, presumably RO buy these in bulk and I would think that would bring the price down considerably. At the time of writing I was just happy that person as with all members of the fell running community got back safe and it seemed petty even though we were warned.
I was there and it was absolutely clear when you picked up your dibber that it was your responsibility and it'd cost £30 if you lost it. The RO also pointed out that everyone competing must be absolutely sure of themselves in those conditions and to not go out if they were'nt sure. The river crossings were fantastic and, yeah there's a chance you could lose a dibber, but that's all part of the fun. I ended up half swimming one crossing myself but there's no way the RO should pay either way. Jesus such a brilliantly organised race and someone wants to come up with a stupid complaint!Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lloyd
I couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
[QUOTE=John Lloyd;489155].... However, presumably RO buy these in bulk and I would think that would bring the price down considerably..... /QUOTE]
No! R.O. does not buy them in bulk. As with the rest of the S.I. kit, they are on hire for the day from SportIdent. If the R.O. does not return the appropriate number to S.I., he will be charged the going rate for a replacement dibber by S.I. The R.O. is merely passing-on that cost to the appropriate competitor.
And don't whinge about "HAVING" to use S.I., where a R.O. deems to employ it. It should help to improve the accountability of competitors' whereabouts.
Look at the big picture, not isolated incidents
Hear hear!
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Originally Posted by wheezing donkey
How does such claptrap help? really?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrump
Wheezing donkey makes the best point here.. the RO will be out of pocket. He's done the hard work. yeah its shit. Just cough up.
Because of that RO's guts, many RO's wouldn't have let that race go ahead, people had some great challenges, great fun, that's what fell running is about, a proper memorable race.. and yes it can go wrong as we all know, so a lost dibber is no huge issue in the grand scheme, but also it shouldn't be the RO's money which is lost..
I'm sorry but I think the core of fell running is personal responsibility. If you have it and you lose it, you pay for it.. simplest, most honest way.
I agree. That's why I think it'd be shame to have dibbers for all races, as some seem to be suggesting. If safety is the main benefit, well you're responsible for yourself. If getting results immediately is the main benefit, I can wait a day or two to find out how I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
Why? You are still responsible?Quote:
Originally Posted by L.F.F.
It just aids rescue, is another saftety level...
I don't see how them being a saftey benefit, i.e. providing some information on last known point, contradicts with the notion that we are responsible fro ourselves..
.....within the framework of an event that society at large judges the R.O. to be responsible for.Quote:
Originally Posted by L.F.F.
EXACTLY!
As a R.O. it would make my job and responsability towards the runners a lot easier if I used dibbers for a long event. However, and I think I speak for a the majority of RO's, we don't organise fell races to make money! In fact, often enough it costs money, especially if you try to keep entryfees as low as possible to keep things accessible and friendly for all. You do not want to end up footing a bill to SI for lost dibbers! Ultimately, racing a fell race, the responsability lies with the runners, for their own safety as well as their dibbers. However, RO's do their utmost to put on a great race keeping in mind safety for runners as well. It takes guts to NOT cancel a race under adverse weather conditions, because the finger pointing if something does go wrong is always towards the RO.
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Originally Posted by wheezing donkey
It's that other safety level that's the issue in my opinion. If the RO decides to use them for whatever reason, then obviously you respect that, no issue at all. But if they become mandatory it's different. The fewer 'levels' imposed on the sport the better. It's the lack of these 'safety levels' (and extra costs, rules, regulations that come with them) that might appeal to a lot of people who take part in the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
Agreed. Dibbers.. . individual GPS tracking monitored at base. .. what's next. .. it's a slippery slope.Quote:
Originally Posted by L.F.F.
How are dibbers any different to marshalls?Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard123
Its a fell race.. if you aren't being monitored how do you know who ran the route..
Alarmist nonsense..I'm sorry there's no other description suitable..Do you read the daily mail?
If you want to run in the hills fine.. in a race there is insurance.. that insurance will have stipulations of some level of monitoring but its also a race.. you want to know who won the race and ran the correct route..
At Jura, 2009, Andy Davies 'won'.. first back, they then realised he had an extra tag left over.. he didn't know the route so didn't know there was another hill after the last pap.. that could have been a dibber.. marshall or tag.. but it shows why some level of checking is necessary.
Exactly.. so a dibber is no change to a marshall.. its just more reliable..Quote:
Originally Posted by L.F.F.
I'm not an RO, but I'd imagine if I was organising a race, setting up a dibber system would feel very different to using marshalls.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
You also said 'some level of checking is necessary'. No one's disputed that. It's how the checking's done.
I just think it provides rapid reliable results.. in bad weather paper and a pen is tricky, hence unreliable.. I know of a number of races in North Wales where the organiser has posted on the eryri site for runners to say their times..Quote:
Originally Posted by L.F.F.
Have you ever used a dibber, done a race with dibbers or are you just spouting off about a perceived potential "change" which of course must be feared?Quote:
Originally Posted by L.F.F.
I suspect that you actually don't understand how the system works.
In reality to the runner, using such a system would make absolutely no difference to how a race was run. To an RO, it might (but of course, not necessarily) make life easier and make it easier to organise a race. Why would you be against that? The added advantage of having checks for safety is a bonus. You would still need some marshals to be on the hills, but I'd guess fewer.
The only downside is the initial cost of the equipment (as aforementioned), but as I've said above, orienteering events have a £2 rental charge on borrowed dibbers, so if you don't own your own dibber, you pay £2 extra. The same would apply for fell races. Surely £2 extra on some of the longer fell races won't destroy the nature of fell running? (I accept most short races don't need it or would have large queues of people at the boxes!). The cost of buying the boxes could be shared by several clubs and recouped over time - once the system is in place and more races are using it, it would become economically viable.
Of course, after a few races, most fell runners, like orienteers, would buy their own dibber. That might even persuade a few more to try orienteering, which might help them navigate better?
Plus I believe that Martin Stone who runs Sportident is a fell runner and FRA member, why wouldn't we want to support his business as fellow fell runners?
Blimey:) Are you on commission?Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy
As I said, I'm not an RO, but I imagine it's a lot easier to run a race with a couple of friends on mountain tops than to arrange a dibber system with all that entails. Is that ok? I thought that was a pretty simple statement.
I also said I have no complaints if a RO decides to use the dibber system. No complaints at all.
The unfortunate thing, in my opinion, would be if this system was imposed, a result of regulations. One of the best things about fell running, for me, and I imagine a good few who actually do it, is the simplicity of it.
Some people seem to be inviting regulation.