Great Lakes - where did I go ?

Hi all,

I got totally lost and am trying to work out where I went. I crossed the esk after the corner and then followed a path for some time to another river crossing. From there I went over a boggy section then up and left into the mist following some other runners. Near the top of the very rocky climb I lost them and believe I went too far right and off track, I followed east (but feel I may have drifted too far south) for some time avoiding various rocky outcrops. Some point later i thought i had gone too high and decided to descend and to see if i could find any other runners. Once I came out of the cloud I had reached the edge of a valley. There was a wall which had a Sheep gate on and there was a ruin not too far away. I then decided I was too low and turned back uphill following the wall. I went through 2 gates and then left over a stile (the sort that cross over at the top) and followed a path upwards back into the mist. After reaching the top of this hill and being unable to find anyone or anything I went right and ended up near some very steep looking cliffs. After climbing back up away from these and having been out for almost 6 hours I made a decision to follow a stream/river down and get out of the mountains. I ended up a couple of miles down the road from Wrynose where I blagged a lift from.

It is highly possible i was near hardknott when i first came out of the mist but im not sure.

Any Ideas


Dan

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Originally Posted by dantodman

Hi all,

I got totally lost and am trying to work out where I went. I crossed the esk after the corner and then followed a path for some time to another river crossing. From there I went over a boggy section then up and left into the mist following some other runners. Near the top of the very rocky climb I lost them and believe I went too far right and off track, I followed east (but feel I may have drifted too far south) for some time avoiding various rocky outcrops. Some point later i thought i had gone too high and decided to descend and to see if i could find any other runners. I reached a wall which had a Sheep gate on and there was a ruin not too far away. I then decided I was too low and turned back uphill following the wall. I went through 2 gates and then left over a stile (the sort that cross over at the top) and followed a path upwards back into the mist. After reaching the top of this hill and being unable to find anyone or anything I went right and ended up near some very steep looking cliffs. After climbing back up away from these and having been out for almost 6 hours I made a decision to follow a stream/river down and get out of the mountains. I ended up a couple of miles down the road from Wrynose where I blagged a lift from.

Any Ideas


Dan

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Pendle ???

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Originally Posted by Amex

Pendle ???

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I would have been alright at Pendle know my way round there a lot better. :D

I can't believe you even attempted a race in those conditions without having reccied the route first, or having the necessary navigation skills to do the race.

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Originally Posted by dantodman

I would have been alright at Pendle know my way round there a lot better. :D

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LoL i see this thread may have some mileage, probably about as much as u did on Sat well done for sticking at it!
ok my next guess Gaitscale Close base of little Stand

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Originally Posted by fozzy

I can't believe you even attempted a race in those conditions without having reccied the route first, or having the necessary navigation skills to do the race.

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Seems a bit harsh.

Rob Jebb himself could've got lost in those conditions. Morgan Donnelly apparently missed a checkpoint.

Well done for entering Dan and giving it a go. A proper challenge.

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Originally Posted by fozzy

I can't believe you even attempted a race in those conditions without having reccied the route first, or having the necessary navigation skills to do the race.

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Well thats total bollocks....Ive reccied many races before and then screwed up nav on the day.

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Well thats total bollocks....Ive reccied many races before and then screwed up nav on the day.

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The problem with recceing is you only know the route.. not the area.. lose the route/follow the wrong person/lose concentration and you're on unfamiliar ground without the ability to nav..

The necessary nav skills are essential whether you recce or not, but this seems lost on many fell runners.. the recce, recce, recce mentality is strange. TBH its just an excuse to run slowly and not get fitter.. 'oh I'm recceing'.. save time by route choice rather than a better CV system.. to put it bluntly...

The OP had the sense to realise his race was over and get safe and off the hill, so good decision.

Reccing is also not easy if you do not live near the Lakes/Snowdonia and/or in my case lots of family commitments (taxi service) over the weekend.

Who said he didn't have any nav ability? I know nothing about him so wouldn't jump in with judgemental comments. It went wrong on the day. At leat he gave it a go, and he sorted himself out.

Here we go again... I was about to warn you Dan, anything you say on here will be a) misconstrued and b) taken down and used as evidence against you. You and about 150 others I suspect!

I'm pretty sure you've been up Little Stand twice from the description. If you'd gone down to the road the first time, at Gaitscale Close as Amex says, you could have gone up to Wrynose pass and taken the path to Blisco. If you'd done so, you might even have come across another runner returning from Hardknott Pass after a rescue mission.

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Originally Posted by fozzy

I can't believe you even attempted a race in those conditions without having reccied the route first, or having the necessary navigation skills to do the race.

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You have made 2 assumptions there. :mad:

I think you are being overly touchy.. getting lost doesn't necessarily mean no nav skills.. it's just good to know when the race is over and head down to safety.. in a fell running career most of us will get lost at some point.. nav skills or not, that's just the heat of racing..

Though I do hope he gave his dibber back..

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Originally Posted by LissaJous

Here we go again... I was about to warn you Dan, anything you say on here will be a) misconstrued and b) taken down and used as evidence against you. You and about 150 others I suspect!

I'm pretty sure you've been up Little Stand twice from the description. If you'd gone down to the road the first time, at Gaitscale Close as Amex says, you could have gone up to Wrynose pass and taken the path to Blisco. If you'd done so, you might even have come across another runner returning from Hardknott Pass after a rescue mission.

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Thanks sounds about right and dont worry I am big enough to look after myself, I have lived and learnt.

I was in a potentially bad situation and glad I was also big enough to realise when it was time to get off the mountain and back to civilisation.

As for Colin what a hero, I think he had probably gone past by then anyway.


Dan

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Originally Posted by IainR

I think you are being overly touchy.. getting lost doesn't necessarily mean no nav skills.. it's just good to know when the race is over and head down to safety.. in a fell running career most of us will get lost at some point.. nav skills or not, that's just the heat of racing..

Though I do hope he gave his dibber back..

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Of course I did, I even dibbed in, also as I got a lift i avoided the last river crossing.


Dan

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Originally Posted by L.F.F.

Seems a bit harsh.

Rob Jebb himself could've got lost in those conditions. Morgan Donnelly apparently missed a checkpoint.

Well done for entering Dan and giving it a go. A proper challenge.

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I shall clarify why I posted that. Firstly what other runners did/didn't do is irrelevant in this case, we are being specific.

The OP clearly stated he was following runners up Swinsty or Stonesty Gill (this is an assumption, but the OP stated he crossed both the Esk and Lingcove Beck), where he lost sight of said runners and then "wandered around", or in his own words:

"believe I went too far right and off track, I followed east (but feel I may have drifted too far south) for some time avoiding various rocky outcrops. Some point later i thought i had gone too high and decided to descend and to see if i could find any other runners. Once I came out of the cloud I had reached the edge of a valley. There was a wall which had a Sheep gate on and there was a ruin not too far away. I then decided I was too low and turned back uphill following the wall"

Even as a very average navigator, my instincts would have been to (a) get the compass out straight away at the top of the climb in order to make sure that I headed in the correct direction (even if not the best line) for Blisco and (b) attempted to relocate, again using the compass.

I admit that I do not know that particular area of the lakes well, so don't know how easy it would be to relocate, but it has been shown that most people will move around in circles when lost/in the dark (actually the study was done with blindfolded people) - because our natural instincts try to self correct and take over and we don't move in a straight line, even if we think we are. Using the compass would have ensured you at least moved in one direction instead of wandering aimlessly.

Yes, the OP should be applauded for realising that the time had come to get off the hill and the sense to do so, before it got very dangerous, but to be honest you should not put yourself in that position.

As for "having a go" and it "being a proper challenge" - I think you need to think about this statement - if you don't have the necessary skills to do a race, then you should not attempt it.

I was actually offered a number (on a transfer from a clubmate), but upon seeing the weather and the fact that I hadn't reccied the course, I realised that it might be beyond my abilities and so did not take up the offer, as to do the race might have put myself and others (marshals, other runners, mountain rescue) in danger.

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Originally Posted by fozzy

I admit that I do not know that particular area of the lakes well, so don't know how easy it would be to relocate,

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It wouldn't be easy. Even where there are paths its quite easy to lose in the rocks in a number of places and lots of fairly pathless running. Fair do's to the RO for letting the race go on, it was a brave call. He put a lot of trust in the runners which was good to see.

Its probably one of the harder of the lakes races to navigate on, well of those that I've done or know anyway and if you get lost in a number of places you'll drop down a long way from the start.. totally in another valley system.

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Originally Posted by IainR

It wouldn't be easy. Even where there are paths its quite easy to lose in the rocks in a number of places and lots of fairly pathless running. Fair do's to the RO for letting the race go on, it was a brave call. He put a lot of trust in the runners which was good to see.

Its probably one of the harder of the lakes races to navigate on, well of those that I've done or know anyway and if you get lost in a number of places you'll drop down a long way from the start.. totally in another valley system.

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Hence the need to get the compass out early. I suspect I would have had it out and been using it from the descent from Slight Side all the way to Blisco, even in good weather.

Since I started orienteering at the end of last year, I've a new found respect for being able to take a bearing and follow it whilst running at speed. I'm also rapidly learning when I need to stop and make sure that my nav is correct - the traffic light system is good here.

I'm not going through every detail of Fozzy's post, but will say that I was thinking of posting about the lost in the mist / going round in circles problem myself. That's why I'm pretty sure Dan was on Little Stand all along. So yes, you need to get a compass out, otherwise you think you'e travelled a few km but you're actually pretty much where you were to start with.

From the splits, a whole load of people at Slight Side at about the same time as Dan have had a whole load of trouble getting to Blisco, with Dan not the only one to DNF as a result. We were also under safety instructions to stay in groups, remember. Dan, what was the visibility like when you crossed the Esk? When I was there you could actually see a few hundred metres.

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Originally Posted by fozzy

we are being specific.

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We’re not being so specific. We’re talking about issues generally – you said if you don’t have the skills, you shouldn’t enter the race.

The guy comes on here asking a simple, friendly question about his experience and he gets some pompous crap in reply.

You don’t have to be a navigation expert to enter these races and he got into a bad situation, but dealt with it. Could’ve happened to anybody. Maybe he should’ve done some things differently, but once he was disorientated, with bad weather and not much landscape to refer to, it’s not surprising he ended up a bit lost.

As I said, well done for having the courage to give it a go. A proper fell running challenge.

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Originally Posted by L.F.F.

We’re not being so specific. We’re talking about issues generally – you said if you don’t have the skills, you shouldn’t enter the race.

The guy comes on here asking a simple, friendly question about his experience and he gets some pompous crap in reply.

You don’t have to be a navigation expert to enter these races and he got into a bad situation, but dealt with it. Could’ve happened to anybody. Maybe he should’ve done some things differently, but once he was disorientated, with bad weather and not much landscape to refer to, it’s not surprising he ended up a bit lost.

As I said, well done for having the courage to give it a go. A proper fell running challenge.

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I give up, you're obviously being pig-headed and ignorant for your own "special" reasons. And I don't have the time or energy to deal with idiots.

I will leave it at the following - I never said that you had to be a "navigation expert" - but being able to navigate should be (is?) part of the necessary set of skills (even in poor weather) for a race such as this. It worries me when people are so blasé about these sort of things, especially after what happened at Buttermere Sailbeck.

Right, I will cease my comments and observations (or "pompous crap" if you prefer) and get on with some work.

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Originally Posted by fozzy

I give up, you're obviously being pig-headed and ignorant for your own "special" reasons. And I don't have the time or energy to deal with idiots.

I will leave it at the following - I never said that you had to be a "navigation expert" - but being able to navigate should be (is?) part of the necessary set of skills (even in poor weather) for a race such as this. It worries me when people are so blasé about these sort of things, especially after what happened at Buttermere Sailbeck.

Right, I will cease my comments and observations (or "pompous crap" if you prefer) and get on with some work.

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You didn't say explicitly that you have to be a navigation expert, but you did say Dan shouldn't have been there. What the minimum standards of navigation ability are, you didn't say, but it's beyond the traffic light system clearly.

I applaud Dan and the rest for going out there and facing the conditions, not judging others from the security of their bedroom.

showing how much of an amateur I am - but what is the "traffic light system"?

Was thinking the same Dr PB!

Like a lot of nav strategies, just common sense and things most people do without knowing they have a name, like tick offs, hand railing, aiming off.. but its good to actually think about them..

http://www.solwayorienteers.co.uk/Solus/traffic.htm

Its sort of similar to rough nav fine nav... so do most of your leg as rough nav to an obvious feature nearby.. then slow down and fine nav in..

Brilliant - thanks Iain.

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Originally Posted by IainR

then slow down and fine nav in..

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And hope No map, no compass isn't right behind you to accuse you of being lost! LOL (from other Gt Lakes thread) (No offence intended)

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Originally Posted by LissaJous

And hope No map, no compass isn't right behind you to accuse you of being lost! LOL (from other Gt Lakes thread) (No offence intended)

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That runner was lost, he must have been coz he followed me down a really crap route off Slight Side. If he'd known where he was or where he was going he wouldn'tve followed someone who was clearly making it up as I went along.

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Originally Posted by LissaJous

From the splits, a whole load of people at Slight Side at about the same time as Dan have had a whole load of trouble getting to Blisco, with Dan not the only one to DNF as a result. We were also under safety instructions to stay in groups, remember. Dan, what was the visibility like when you crossed the Esk? When I was there you could actually see a few hundred metres.

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visibility was good at both river crossings only bad again once we went up again

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Originally Posted by dantodman

Hi all,

I got totally lost and am trying to work out where I went. I crossed the esk after the corner and then followed a path for some time to another river crossing. From there I went over a boggy section then up and left into the mist following some other runners. Near the top of the very rocky climb I lost them and believe I went too far right and off track, I followed east (but feel I may have drifted too far south) for some time avoiding various rocky outcrops. Some point later i thought i had gone too high and decided to descend and to see if i could find any other runners. Once I came out of the cloud I had reached the edge of a valley. There was a wall which had a Sheep gate on and there was a ruin not too far away. I then decided I was too low and turned back uphill following the wall. I went through 2 gates and then left over a stile (the sort that cross over at the top) and followed a path upwards back into the mist. After reaching the top of this hill and being unable to find anyone or anything I went right and ended up near some very steep looking cliffs. After climbing back up away from these and having been out for almost 6 hours I made a decision to follow a stream/river down and get out of the mountains. I ended up a couple of miles down the road from Wrynose where I blagged a lift from.

It is highly possible i was near hardknott when i first came out of the mist but im not sure.

Any Ideas


Dan

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Dan; ignore the patronising comments, you did the right thing by posting, and it looks like you had a proper boys own adventure there! Here's what i think you did...

After dibbing at Slight Side you would probably have made your way to the Esk and crossed below Scar Lathing, then picking up the trod made your way to Lingcove Beck and crossed at the base of Swinsty Gill. From there you took the trod towards Black Crag over the boggy stuff to the base of Stonesty Gill where you followed the others up into the cloud. I should imagine the cloudbase that day was below 2000' meaning you lost them before reaching the little tarn at the top of the beck from where you could have recovered your situation. From there you probably headed SE and to the edge of Gaitscale Gill, where you found the ruin 'Gaitscale' at NY255022. You then headed west over 2 walls through Gaitscale Close and to the junction of your original wall with the bridleway at NY247024 which you followed and reascended Little Stand. You then got lost in a load of crags on Little Stand and finally threw the towell in and took a SE line off the mountain into Wrynose Bottom via the beck in Gaitscale Gill.

If it were me in your situation i would have continued up Stonesty Gill (if that is in fact where you were!) to the tarn, then contoured around the bottom of the crags on Cold Pike to pick up Red Tarn. This would heve left a simple straight line climb of Blisco. This is the long route, but visibility would have been inproving all the time as you dropped out of the clouds and you would only have had to take one compass bearing to set yourself off in the right direction to skirt Cold Pike; Red Tarn should have hopefully been below the cloudbase.

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Originally Posted by IainR

Fair do's to the RO for letting the race go on, it was a brave call. He put a lot of trust in the runners which was good to see.

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I agree with those who are broadly saying that the challenge shouldn't be taken lightly, but this comment from IainR is a really important one, and I agree, completely.

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Originally Posted by fozzy

Hence the need to get the compass out early. I suspect I would have had it out and been using it from the descent from Slight Side all the way to Blisco, even in good weather.

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I've more than once been identified as an orienteer, as I always have my map and compass in my hand on a race, whatever the conditions. In clear weather it makes it quick to check fine navigation points as you go. If poor weather it makes sure you know exactly where you are before the clag comes down, rather than having to relocate afterwards.

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Originally Posted by fozzy

Yes, the OP should be applauded for realising that the time had come to get off the hill and the sense to do so, before it got very dangerous, but to be honest you should not put yourself in that position.

As for "having a go" and it "being a proper challenge" - I think you need to think about this statement - if you don't have the necessary skills to do a race, then you should not attempt it.
I was actually offered a number (on a transfer from a clubmate), but upon seeing the weather and the fact that I hadn't reccied the course, I realised that it might be beyond my abilities and so did not take up the offer, as to do the race might have put myself and others (marshals, other runners, mountain rescue) in danger.

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I'm a newcomer to the FRA forums but it's obvious there's a wealth of knowledge and experience held here. Making comments which embarass will most likely discourage other inexperienced/improving runners from wanting to talk openly about and learn from their mistakes, which does nothing to help improve people's personal safety on the hills.

After inspecting a 1:25000 map in the pub last night it is fairly conclusive what happened to me. I was near the top of Stonesty Gill when I drifted too far right and got lost, I must have contoured around Little Stand and then descended out of the mist and found the ruin. I then took the path back up Little Stand walked around for a bit before deciding to follow the stream/river down to near Wrynose.

One thing I must say the 1:25000 map is so much more detailed than the 1:50000 race map I had.

Dan

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Originally Posted by dantodman

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One thing I must say the 1:25000 map is so much more detailed than the 1:50000 race map I had.

Dan

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there's a lesson learnt straight away:) get some bareings and notes on it for next time. well done for having the sense to withdraw rather than pushing on.

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Well thats total bollocks....Ive reccied many races before and then screwed up nav on the day.

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I'd be interested to see the list Tom - I didn't know you were that prolific ;)

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Originally Posted by dantodman

One thing I must say the 1:25000 map is so much more detailed than the 1:50000 race map I had.

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That's for sure.

There is another moral to the story perhaps: if you're lost and almost out (of the mountains), there's no point going back in until you know precisely where you are. I am assuming that if the topography would help guide you in the right direction, you wouldn't be so lost in the first place!

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Originally Posted by dantodman

One thing I must say the 1:25000 map is so much more detailed than the 1:50000 race map I had.

Dan

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not only that, but stray off course (by a just a couple of hundred metres at times) and you can be off your map altogether with potentially serious difficulties in relocating especially in poor vis, calling MR to a casualty etc etc. There's a big downside to race maps in addition to their obvious selling points

P

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Originally Posted by paulo

not only that, but stray off course (by a just a couple of hundred metres at times) and you can be off your map altogether with potentially serious difficulties in relocating especially in poor vis, calling MR to a casualty etc etc. There's a big downside to race maps in addition to their obvious selling points

P

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Very true. Race maps are fine if you're on the racing line, but you're buggered if you lose it!

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Originally Posted by dantodman

After inspecting a 1:25000 map in the pub last night it is fairly conclusive what happened to me. I was near the top of Stonesty Gill when I drifted too far right and got lost, I must have contoured around Little Stand and then descended out of the mist and found the ruin. I then took the path back up Little Stand walked around for a bit before deciding to follow the stream/river down to near Wrynose.

One thing I must say the 1:25000 map is so much more detailed than the 1:50000 race map I had.

Dan

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If nothing else the 1:25000 maps have wall and fence lines on. That alone can tell you loads in a lot of situations without even needing a compass. I don't do many fell races but when I do, and I've not recced, I spend half an hour studying the map the night before and work out where I might go wrong and memorise landmarks etc. so that if it does go tits up I don't need to bother much with compasses and maps (unless its misty of course!)

It helps that I'm a map geek of course!