Joss Naylor Challenge reccy

I'm thinking of reccying the first 2 sections this Saturday, to see if 12-hour pace feels feasible. And to get some idea where the bit between Red Screes and Fairfield goes...

Anyone else looking at the route currently? and/or fancy a scamper? Thinking of 5ish start for caravan site reasons.

I supported leg 1 a few years ago but unsure of the route down from Pike How - can anyone advise?

BTW I love that Joss includes Pike Howe but omits the much more significant Raven's Edge before Kirkstone! Are there any more in-jokes?

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Originally Posted by RobW

I'm thinking of reccying the first 2 sections this Saturday, to see if 12-hour pace feels feasible. And to get some idea where the bit between Red Screes and Fairfield goes...

Anyone else looking at the route currently? and/or fancy a scamper? Thinking of 5ish start for caravan site reasons.

I supported leg 1 a few years ago but unsure of the route down from Pike How - can anyone advise?

BTW I love that Joss includes Pike Howe but omits the much more significant Raven's Edge before Kirkstone! Are there any more in-jokes?

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You'll crack 12 Hours Rob, esp with all this High altitude training You've been doing;) Watch out for the DP machine, they are up this weekend.

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

You'll crack 12 Hours Rob, esp with all this High altitude training You've been doing;) Watch out for the DP machine, they are up this weekend.

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LOL, walking slowly at altitude, sadly seems antithetic to running fitness :-(

This is the DP BGR machine? I could follow you off Fairfield....

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Originally Posted by RobW

I'm thinking of reccying the first 2 sections this Saturday, to see if 12-hour pace feels feasible. And to get some idea where the bit between Red Screes and Fairfield goes...
I supported leg 1 a few years ago but unsure of the route down from Pike How - can anyone advise?
BTW I love that Joss includes Pike Howe but omits the much more significant Raven's Edge before Kirkstone! Are there any more in-jokes?

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Red Screes to Fairfield is on paths the whole way: I don't think there are any shortcuts worth taking. Look at Wainwright's "Eastern Fells", although he hasn't got the first bit of path from Red Screes summit marked. You need to make sure you get this right, as the path is there, heading about W to the wall junction. Scandale Pass, then a "joke" as you don't have to do Little Hart Crag, even though you're so close & it's much more of a summit than some of the others. Past the summit of Dove Crag, & Joss doesn't count that either. Spotting the right top of Hart Crag in the clag is an interesting one, but it's close by the path (as are other tops).

I followed the path down from Pike How, but I think there's a quicker way below on the RHS - I don't know how to find it though.

The other joke summits are Red Crag & Raven Howe between Wether Hill & High Raise, particularly Raven Howe.

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Originally Posted by Splatcher

Red Screes to Fairfield is on paths the whole way: I don't think there are any shortcuts worth taking. Look at Wainwright's "Eastern Fells", although he hasn't got the first bit of path from Red Screes summit marked. You need to make sure you get this right, as the path is there, heading about W to the wall junction. Scandale Pass, then a "joke" as you don't have to do Little Hart Crag, even though you're so close & it's much more of a summit than some of the others. Past the summit of Dove Crag, & Joss doesn't count that either. Spotting the right top of Hart Crag in the clag is an interesting one, but it's close by the path (as are other tops).

I followed the path down from Pike How, but I think there's a quicker way below on the RHS - I don't know how to find it though.

The other joke summits are Red Crag & Raven Howe between Wether Hill & High Raise, particularly Raven Howe.

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My copy of Wainwright - Red Screes, pages3/4, has a path heading west from the summit which then divides into one heading north to Middle Dodd and the other almost due west to the wall junction. On my recce of this section I was tempted to cut the corner, in other words go north of the wall junction, though I doubt this is worthwhile as in clag if you go too far north you will miss the pass and have to head up to it. In mist the summit of Red Screes is confusing - there are several rocky outcrops roughly level with the summit rocks - and the most important thing is to make sure you do not end up going south towards Snarker Pike.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

My copy of Wainwright - Red Screes, pages3/4, has a path heading west from the summit which then divides into one heading north to Middle Dodd and the other almost due west to the wall junction. On my recce of this section I was tempted to cut the corner, in other words go north of the wall junction, though I doubt this is worthwhile as in clag if you go too far north you will miss the pass and have to head up to it. In mist the summit of Red Screes is confusing - there are several rocky outcrops roughly level with the summit rocks - and the most important thing is to make sure you do not end up going south towards Snarker Pike.

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It sounds like you've got the original Wainwright edition. The route off Red Screes he shows on that isn't shown as a path, but is the right way, & these days there is a path the whole way apart from the first few yards off the summit. Unfortunately the Chris Jesty 2nd edition doesn't show this path. Finding the summit should be easy enough, as there is a continuous trod all the way up from the Kirkstone Inn car park. At least, I had no problem with it.

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Originally Posted by Splatcher

It sounds like you've got the original Wainwright edition. The route off Red Screes he shows on that isn't shown as a path, but is the right way, & these days there is a path the whole way apart from the first few yards off the summit. Unfortunately the Chris Jesty 2nd edition doesn't show this path. Finding the summit should be easy enough, as there is a continuous trod all the way up from the Kirkstone Inn car park. At least, I had no problem with it.

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I agree, finding the summit is easy, but if you are expecting the path needed to lead directly from it, it is not quite as simple as you might expect from Wainwright's simplified diagram/description.

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Originally Posted by RobW

I'm thinking of reccying the first 2 sections this Saturday, to see if 12-hour pace feels feasible. And to get some idea where the bit between Red Screes and Fairfield goes...

Anyone else looking at the route currently? and/or fancy a scamper? Thinking of 5ish start for caravan site reasons.

I supported leg 1 a few years ago but unsure of the route down from Pike How - can anyone advise?

BTW I love that Joss includes Pike Howe but omits the much more significant Raven's Edge before Kirkstone! Are there any more in-jokes?

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Rob - too many weekends away at the moment, otherwise I'd have joined you.

From Pike How head back towards the path then follow it towards Raven's Edge. Leave the path near a big boulder (I think) fairly soon after you start to ascend and you can make a pretty rough & rocky direct line towards the pub. I'm not convinced this is quicker than the path over Raven's Edge, but it's shorter.

My favourite day out for this section was to leave the route at Fairfield, go over St. Sunday and have a pint in the White Lion before getting the bus back from Patterdale to Pooley Bridge.

Thanks for the info. I supported Leg 1 a few years ago and have been up Red Screes recently but the info from there to Fairfield is appreciated. I'll see if I can find a way past Ravens Edge.

Next point is I suppose Great End - is down the gully best, supposing it can be found?

Scoat - Haycock - Seatallan any surprises?

Seatallan descent I did a while back, maybe keep a bit L of the beeline to the col?

Middle Fell - some scope for getting tangled in little outcrops IIRC...

Thanks Geoff - I'll check that out. You've even answered the bus route question I forgot to ask!

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Originally Posted by GeoffB

My favourite day out for this section was to leave the route at Fairfield, go over St. Sunday and have a pint in the White Lion before getting the bus back from Patterdale to Pooley Bridge.

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Dug out the (weekend) bus times in case anyone's interested for future reference
Bus 508, Patterdale Hotel depart 1009 1219 1509 1719, 27 mins to Pooley Bridge Crown Hotel

So the challenge for an 0500 start is to get down for the 1009 bus, or take a very long drink...

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Originally Posted by RobW

Thanks for the info. I supported Leg 1 a few years ago and have been up Red Screes recently but the info from there to Fairfield is appreciated. I'll see if I can find a way past Ravens Edge.

Next point is I suppose Great End - is down the gully best, supposing it can be found?

Scoat - Haycock - Seatallan any surprises?

Seatallan descent I did a while back, maybe keep a bit L of the beeline to the col?

Middle Fell - some scope for getting tangled in little outcrops IIRC...

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The route off Great End has been covered in an earlier thread. The SE cairn is the summit, so go there first. Then go to the NW summit, head slightly E of N over boulders into a shallow gully (cairns). A cairn just before the gully gets steep & serious shows the point to go left round a rib. The trod is clear from here: steep but reasonably easy to follow, with the occasional cairn. This takes you down to the saddle at the head of Skew Gill. Go straight on to pick up a trod that continues along the shoulder & follow it down, Don't get tempted into a gully: the path is to your left on the shoulder, still with the odd cairn. Eventually it is clear you can easily drop down a short distance to your right to join the path from Sprinkling Tarn, near where it crosses the stream.


Scoat - Haycock - Seatallan no surprises. The climb up Seatallan is hard if you're on your last legs though.

I doubt it makes any difference where you drop down off Seatallan. The route over Middle Fell is on a path all the way.

The ascent of Bowfell is tricky in poor visibility; the descent off Great End is rough and steep - both need a good recce so that they do not surprise you on the day.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

The ascent of Bowfell is tricky in poor visibility; the descent off Great End is rough and steep - both need a good recce so that they do not surprise you on the day.

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I agree completely. Make sure you know how to find the trod off Seat Sandal too.

Thanks chaps! Great description of the GE descent Andy - I'll take a slow look Sunday - if 12h pace hasn't put me off completely! Thanks also to GeoffB who's just sent me Phil Hodgson's detailed description.

I'm reasonably familiar with the BG parts of the route from supporting over the last few years, including the Seat Sandal descent.

Leg 1 - which Wether Hill summit? The 671m Wainwright at NY 45597 16767 or the 674m Nuttall 660m further S at NY 45463 16307 ? Not difficult to visit both as they're near the path...

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Originally Posted by RobW

Leg 1 - which Wether Hill summit? The 671m Wainwright at NY 45597 16767 or the 674m Nuttall 660m further S at NY 45463 16307 ? Not difficult to visit both as they're near the path...

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You'll have to ask Joss!

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Originally Posted by Splatcher

The route off Great End has been covered in an earlier thread. The SE cairn is the summit, so go there first. Then go to the NW summit, head slightly E of N over boulders into a shallow gully (cairns). A cairn just before the gully gets steep & serious shows the point to go left round a rib. The trod is clear from here: steep but reasonably easy to follow, with the occasional cairn. This takes you down to the saddle at the head of Skew Gill. Go straight on to pick up a trod that continues along the shoulder & follow it down, Don't get tempted into a gully: the path is to your left on the shoulder, still with the odd cairn. Eventually it is clear you can easily drop down a short distance to your right to join the path from Sprinkling Tarn, near where it crosses the stream.

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Well, nice day for a recce!! If we are sure that the ESE cairn is higher (the authoritative http://www.hill-bagging.co.uk/mounta...p?qu=S&rf=2364 agrees although no survey is cited), I'd say forget the WNW cairn, just run NW, pass the 1st gully; on reaching the 2nd gully (cairn) follow the directions as above.

Alternatively, if visiting the WNW cairn, just head NNW and pick up the trod directly as it's quite obvious at that point (heading NNE then back W to pick up the trod is fiddly).

Anyway, I found the way down to the Sty Head path, in poor vis, admittedly with a few false leads and back tracking but that's what recceing is for. Is it known who devised this ingenious route?

I also found the line down off High Raise (admittedly not difficult, and in good vis late morning), and the mostly-grassy route off Esk Pike which I don't think I knew about - quite neat.

Looks like tomorrow's weather should be more conducive to a proper run of JNC Secs 1 and 2, assuming I walked slowly enough today....

Rob

Wainwright does suggest this - or something like it - as an ascent; I suspect few other than JNCers use it as there is little evidence of traffic and it is rough/steep.

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Originally Posted by RobW

Thanks chaps! Great description of the GE descent Andy - I'll take a slow look Sunday - if 12h pace hasn't put me off completely! Thanks also to GeoffB who's just sent me Phil Hodgson's detailed description.

I'm reasonably familiar with the BG parts of the route from supporting over the last few years, including the Seat Sandal descent.

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Any chance of seeing a copy of Phil Hodgson's description?

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Any chance of seeing a copy of Phil Hodgson's description?

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It exceeds the 19.5kb filesize (a massive 36kb!) but if you pm me your email I can send it to you

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Originally Posted by RobW

Well, nice day for a recce!! If we are sure that the ESE cairn is higher (the authoritative http://www.hill-bagging.co.uk/mounta...p?qu=S&rf=2364 agrees although no survey is cited), I'd say forget the WNW cairn, just run NW, pass the 1st gully; on reaching the 2nd gully (cairn) follow the directions as above.
Rob

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I have been finding going back almost to Esk Hause but cutting the corner down to a stream slightly faster (only a few mins)
but to complicate things last time I was up there I did what sounds like you did Rob crossing the top of the first gully (Great gully?) then going DOWN the second for 40m? before breaking out left down the ramp line the other route joins further down, this would be a good few mins faster as most of the route is on grass but its not obvious at all where to get out of the gully.

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Originally Posted by Baggins

I have been finding going back almost to Esk Hause but cutting the corner down to a stream slightly faster (only a few mins)
but to complicate things last time I was up there I did what sounds like you did Rob crossing the top of the first gully (Great gully?) then going DOWN the second for 40m? before breaking out left down the ramp line the other route joins further down, this would be a good few mins faster as most of the route is on grass but its not obvious at all where to get out of the gully.

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Great Gully would be the one mentioned in the descriptions, having a large cairn at the top?

The 2nd gully you mention being an obvious narrowish stony gully, fairly runnable? Can you suggest a GR? I'll have to download my GPS track tonight to get an idea where I was on the map. Anyway, the route I ended up with seemed pretty runnable after the stony gully was crossed, so unless I find someone for 7 July who knows it well, I guess that's what I'll do.

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Originally Posted by RobW

Great Gully would be the one mentioned in the descriptions, having a large cairn at the top?

The 2nd gully you mention being an obvious narrowish stony gully, fairly runnable? Can you suggest a GR? I'll have to download my GPS track tonight to get an idea where I was on the map. Anyway, the route I ended up with seemed pretty runnable after the stony gully was crossed, so unless I find someone for 7 July who knows it well, I guess that's what I'll do.

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Blue line was the one Splatcher described green the "new" way

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Originally Posted by Baggins

Blue line was the one Splatcher described green the "new" way

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I like the loop (but my reccy track has more!). Any chance of emailing me the tracks if you have them?

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Originally Posted by RobW

I like the loop (but my reccy track has more!). Any chance of emailing me the tracks if you have them?

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Ok will do

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Originally Posted by RobW

Leg 1 - which Wether Hill summit? The 671m Wainwright at NY 45597 16767 or the 674m Nuttall 660m further S at NY 45463 16307 ? Not difficult to visit both as they're near the path...

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The Hodgson description and the timings match the first (northern) summit; the 2nd is exactly on the path anyway.

What's the quickest route up High Raise? Straight up the gully or swing L on the path?

And the Rossett Pike ascent - keep L through Langdale Combe or keep R on the longer line with maybe 50m less drop?