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Olympics 2012 - Athletics
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19234466
An interesting debate is now going on. Many will feel that GB did great and so did the athletes. However, 6 medals was below the target set by UKA Head Coach Van Commenee.
Despite all the funding, the overall performance isn't as good as some other years dependent how you look at it rather than just the medal count.
When you further consider that Ennis and Farah are largely outside of the UKA "system" then it really does beg the question why athletics has disappointed overall whilst other sports seem to have upped their game.
I do think athletics is difficult to manage. It isn't like other sports. Cycling is very straightforward as is rowing. The Olympic athletics events are a diverse range of from 100m, to Marathon, Pole Vault to Shot, so with all these individual events linked under the umbrella of athletics, the formula of funding used for more specific events like cycling / rowing cannot be replicated with athletics.
The set up at Manchester for the cycling would be akin to having a High Jump centre, hurdles centre, sprinting centre etc...
But how could the sport be structured better help ensure that our undoubted talent gets to the next Olympics better prepared to PB.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Do I remember Van Commenee saying if they didn't reach his target of 8 medals he would walk?
More northern coaching and top facilities may help.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stagger
Do I remember Van Commenee saying if they didn't reach his target of 8 medals he would walk?
More northern coaching and top facilities may help.
He did indeed say that Stagger. However I understand that was also based on just 1 Gold - apparently he's gone on holiday for a couple of weeks and will consider his future.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Going for a positive, get all the failed athletes to do days in schools to encourage kid to have a go at various sports.
Thats how Jess got started after Sheffield games.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
But track and field did better than swimming...which is another monophasic enterprise.
It's a conundrum to be sure but perhaps T&F is about finding solitary unique talents and nurturing them into success rather than something like cycling where you can build a support network around your stars....although swimming, again, failed in that respect.
How many of the T&F golds can be attributed to the GB management? Farah's cannot but I don't know about the others.
There's something about Van Comenee I don't like. I'd be happy to see him replaced with someone more....personable??
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
I think the centralising policy of drawing the elites together at a couple of Hi Performance centres isn't the right way. It works for some sports but not athletics as it is too diverse.
I also think the method of funding needs to be looked at. It's not easy for UKA in this respect as they have to fund within the criteria set down by UK Sport but UKA should be going back to UK Sport and making the case that the diversity of athletic disciplines requires a different approach.
I would look at :-
1. Rewarding Champs performances.
Too much of athletics has become focused on PB and time trials and you can be funded without even winning at the top national level and particularly our sprinters seem to have the approach in recent years that once funded, they've made it.
2. Supporting Universities that want to establish athletics.
Most universities offer bursaries and some for sport. UKA could link up with some of these to like-for-like match fund the bursary, which would further encourage like-minded athletes to attend.
Rather than the Loughborough set up, I would try and spread this so that we have endurance specialist Unis, Throws, Jumps, sprints, so that we perhaps encourage 4 or 5 of each to spring up.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Witton Park
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19234466
An interesting debate is now going on. Many will feel that GB did great and so did the athletes. However, 6 medals was below the target set by UKA Head Coach Van Commenee.
Despite all the funding, the overall performance isn't as good as some other years dependent how you look at it rather than just the medal count.
When you further consider that Ennis and Farah are largely outside of the UKA "system" then it really does beg the question why athletics has disappointed overall whilst other sports seem to have upped their game.
I do think athletics is difficult to manage. It isn't like other sports. Cycling is very straightforward as is rowing. The Olympic athletics events are a diverse range of from 100m, to Marathon, Pole Vault to Shot, so with all these individual events linked under the umbrella of athletics, the formula of funding used for more specific events like cycling / rowing cannot be replicated with athletics.
The set up at Manchester for the cycling would be akin to having a High Jump centre, hurdles centre, sprinting centre etc...
But how could the sport be structured better help ensure that our undoubted talent gets to the next Olympics better prepared to PB.
I think the medals flattered to deceive. I suspect Commenee realises that too, if it wasn't for Farah, Ennis and a fortuitous long jump gold the athletics tally would be pretty pathetic for a home nation with our sporting pedigree. Too many athletes failed to make the semifinals/finals let alone win medals.
There's some great talent coming through, but you have to question the standard of the elite coaches in UKA - especially when you consider our best athletes have to leave the UKA system to be successful.
I can understand why you want to make athletics coaching sound more complicated than cycling and rowing, but the reality is that athletics could learn a great deal from the success of those sports - especially cycling.
I don't think it's a question of facilities, it's more about signposting talent from other sports (Gemili is a great example) and improving coaching. One thing which is often overlooked when it comes to Manchester Velodrome is that it's not just a track for cyclists it's a hub for developing coaches too.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dynamo Dan
I think the medals flattered to deceive. I suspect Commenee realises that too, if it wasn't for Farah, Ennis and a fortuitous long jump gold the athletics tally would be pretty pathetic for a home nation with our sporting pedigree. Too many athletes failed to make the semifinals/finals let alone win medals.
There's some great talent coming through, but you have to question the standard of the elite coaches in UKA - especially when you consider our best athletes have to leave the UKA system to be successful.
I can understand why you want to make athletics coaching sound more complicated than cycling and rowing, but the reality is that athletics could learn a great deal from the success of those sports - especially cycling.
I don't think it's a question of facilities, it's more about signposting talent from other sports (Gemili is a great example) and improving coaching. One thing which is often overlooked when it comes to Manchester Velodrome is that it's not just a track for cyclists it's a hub for developing coaches too.
Dan I agree with you - but just to clarify I'm not saying that athletics coaching is more complicated, but that athletics is more complicated as a sport and we cannot just replicate the Veldodrome and put all of our elite athletes in to one or two HIPACs.
Gemili isn't "new" he was just tied to football as a junior at Chelsea. Since 2010 he's competed and improved. We have a similar lad at BBH called Luke Evans. He was in rugby and couldn't compete for us until U17 / Year 11 when he ran 11.1 and 22.5
Luke is at Loughborough and ran slower when under their coaching regime in 2011. It seems they spent most of the time in the gym and you only need to look at the likes of Harry AA and you can see that.
Luke is an athlete and needs to run.
I don't think these centres are the way for athletics. I think smaller more focused centres, perhaps more difficult to fund alone which is why I suggest the Uni way.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Witton Park
I don't think these centres are the way for athletics. I think smaller more focused centres, perhaps more difficult to fund alone which is why I suggest the Uni way.
I think the Uni idea is great. Commenee doesn't seem very personable, but he strikes me as honest enough for things to change at the top of UKA, which is a good thing.
Don't you think coaches would benefit from regional/national centres, even if it would be difficult to manage for athletes?
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Dan - I think athletics is so diverse and short of volunteers. I can't speak for other sports. The volunteers in our sport are often involved with more than one hat.
I am always looking to learn as a coach, but the courses that are put on for us coaches can involve cost, time and also for some reason seem to overlap with events. I suppose the problem I have is that I try to be more than just a coach, in that I run (sort of) and get involved in the athletics structures.
I find the best way is when I have been involved in group sessions with some of the older stalwarts of coaching + a mix of the newer academically trained coaches. You can pick up the bits that you like.
If we had this "Uni" structure, then it should also involve (for example) open sessions for athletes and coaches from outside the area and become a regional hub for the specific event.
That already happens to a degree at Sportcity with the indoor facility.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wheeze
But track and field did better than swimming...which is another monophasic enterprise.
It's a conundrum to be sure but perhaps T&F is about finding solitary unique talents and nurturing them into success rather than something like cycling where you can build a support network around your stars....although swimming, again, failed in that respect.
How many of the T&F golds can be attributed to the GB management? Farah's cannot but I don't know about the others.
There's something about Van Comenee I don't like. I'd be happy to see him replaced with someone more....personable??
Swimming did fail on the medal count, but we seemed to have a lot of finalists so I'd be interested to see the stats on top 8 finishers which might suggest depth.
Only Ohorugu and Rutherford could really be attributed to the UKA structure.
Ennis is funded, but her income stream is well established and her coaching away from the UKA structure just like Farah.
Grabartz I would say not either. He wasn't on the radar until he jumped 2.34m indoors in January this year.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
In athletics we don't seem to have strength in depth at any single discipline, but throw up individuals at random who sometimes make it to the very top, whether through UKA or their own system.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
molehill
In athletics we don't seem to have strength in depth at any single discipline, but throw up individuals at random who sometimes make it to the very top, whether through UKA or their own system.
Im not sure about strength in depth - I just dont think we have any strength full stop.
The Olympics was fantastic and I enjoyed it all but was very down hearted and quite embarrased by the Team GB performance other than Mo and Jess.
I would class their performance as a big fat 'Freddie Fail'. It will be interesting though to see if they get their funding cut like is potentially likely to happen to other sports. £25M well spent ........?
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
As I cant edit my post I need to add that this comment is in relation to only the athletics, but swimming also under performed.
All the others I feel could hold their head high with their performances.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sore legs
Im not sure about strength in depth - I just dont think we have any strength full stop.
The Olympics was fantastic and I enjoyed it all but was very down hearted and quite embarrased by the Team GB performance other than Mo and Jess.
I would class their performance as a big fat 'Freddie Fail'. It will be interesting though to see if they get their funding cut like is potentially likely to happen to other sports. £25M well spent ........?
I'd say there were a few others who could also hold their heads up - relative to the expectation we had for them even 3 months ago. For example, apart from the aforementioned Robbie Grabartz, I'd say Steve Lewis and Andrew Osagie in particularly, and also Laurence Okoye in the Hammer did better than expected while Christine Ohorugou (sp) achieved as much as could be expected.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Thought we threw up a gold in the long jump as well - gold is gold whether you are Mo, Jessica or Greg. Just don't seem to be many others snapping at their heels for places.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
It's a mixed bag, but we also have to look at the imports we had this year, and I don't include Mo in that. We had Tiffany Porter in Sprint Hurdles, Yamile Aldama in Triple Jump, Shana Cox 400m... could be more.
I actually think we have got the athletes - look at some of the other medal contenders who didn't quite make it.
Dai Greene - 400 Hurdles
Philips Idowu - Triple Jump
Holly Bleasdale - Pole Vault (from my club)
Hannah England - 1500m
Shara Proctor - Long Jump - (an import really)
Goldie Sayers - Javelin
Peri Shakes-Drayton - 400 hurdles
Chris Tomlinson - Long Jump
and then the relays where we had a chance on paper in 3 out of 4 of getting a medal.
On another day perhaps? A case of bad luck?
I don't think so.
We clearly had some athletes who hit their peak early and couldn't perform to their seasons bests. All 8 of those athletes above plus the 3 imports were below their season's bests let alone their PBs in the Olympics.
They are all funded athletes.
I know Holly really well. I think it was a little inexperience on the day - perhaps from coach as well. As a pair they have worked phenomenally well together taking her to 4.87m indoors this winter, the 3rd highest of all time. 5 years ago she was a hurdler.
But both are learning - all the women vaulters struggled in the difficult conditions and she came a creditable 6th when in a heart I'm sure she fancied a medal.
But the others are all experienced performers, so I don't know.
I did wonder what the merits of the holding camp in Portugal was though. We have a home advantage, so why go to 35C and club med conditions?
the Jamaicans holding camp was Birmingham.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Witton Park
I'd be interested to see the stats on top 8 finishers which might suggest depth.
Stats for the Olympic placings are now available here.
This gives a score of 85 for GB in 2012. The equivalent score at the 2008 Olympics (1 Gold 2 Silver 1 Bronze + 4 2 3 2 3) = 72 points.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
XRunner
Yes I'd seen them - I meat the same stats but for swimming.
the athletics stats show a decline since Soeul which is startling since we didn't have any funding then.
I was very impressed by Jo Pavey and Julia Bleasdale in the 10K and then the 5K.
Both ran PBs in the 10K and placed high in the 5K. Not bad for non-funded athletes.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sore legs
As I cant edit my post I need to add that this comment is in relation to only the athletics, but swimming also under performed.
All the others I feel could hold their head high with their performances.
I know some one in the hierachy of british swimming and to say they are scared of what their performance will do their funding is an understatement...
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
That doesn't look so bad to me. Am I missing something or haven't we actually done better than last time? Can fouling up a relay baton handover be attributed to a failure in UK athletics? If Jamaicans beat us at sprinting and Rift Valley athletes beat us at long distance does that make us rubbish. You're all runners if you don't like it get running and win something yourselves.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
XRunner
My previous remark is in relation to the stats.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
GD - it depends how you analyse. If you go further back there is evidence to say that the funding hasn't helped - Souel being the high-point since the era of the boycotted games. I think it's also fair to say that a lot of our medal contenders under-performed this time.
WE also can see quite a few of our stronger athletes didn't even get to the Games - the 800m Women being the most highlighted event.
Our discussion won't change things, but I am pretty sure the UKA Management will be having similar conversations.
If my athletes underperform I try to understand why.
Surely it's Ok for us to have a discussion?
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Witton Park
It's a mixed bag, but we also have to look at the imports we had this year, and I don't include Mo in that. We had Tiffany Porter in Sprint Hurdles, Yamile Aldama in Triple Jump, Shana Cox 400m... could be more.
I actually think we have got the athletes - look at some of the other medal contenders who didn't quite make it.
Dai Greene - 400 Hurdles
Philips Idowu - Triple Jump
Holly Bleasdale - Pole Vault (from my club)
Hannah England - 1500m
Shara Proctor - Long Jump - (an import really)
Goldie Sayers - Javelin
Peri Shakes-Drayton - 400 hurdles
Chris Tomlinson - Long Jump
and then the relays where we had a chance on paper in 3 out of 4 of getting a medal.
On another day perhaps? A case of bad luck?
I don't think so.
We clearly had some athletes who hit their peak early and couldn't perform to their seasons bests. All 8 of those athletes above plus the 3 imports were below their season's bests let alone their PBs in the Olympics.
They are all funded athletes.
I know Holly really well. I think it was a little inexperience on the day - perhaps from coach as well. As a pair they have worked phenomenally well together taking her to 4.87m indoors this winter, the 3rd highest of all time. 5 years ago she was a hurdler.
But both are learning - all the women vaulters struggled in the difficult conditions and she came a creditable 6th when in a heart I'm sure she fancied a medal.
But the others are all experienced performers, so I don't know.
I did wonder what the merits of the holding camp in Portugal was though. We have a home advantage, so why go to 35C and club med conditions?
the Jamaicans holding camp was Birmingham.
I found this very strange - the olympics are in London and our athletes could not even be bothered to show up at the opening of it - more of a disgrace in my view.
I suppose if the athletes cant hit their peak with a 4 year build up with a full supporting and managing team behind them then they dont deserve any future support. Everyone has off days or lets the occasion get to them but I view these latest performances as woeful.
How many and who are funded?? Listening to one of the boxing coaches, he stated that there was no need for the the boxers to rush off after success and become professional as they were currently earning nearly as much as an amateur - I dont know how that is supposed to work as that is not an amateur in my books or by definition.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sore legs
I found this very strange - the olympics are in London and our athletes could not even be bothered to show up at the opening of it - more of a disgrace in my view.
I suppose if the athletes cant hit their peak with a 4 year build up with a full supporting and managing team behind them then they dont deserve any future support. Everyone has off days or lets the occasion get to them but I view these latest performances as woeful.
How many and who are funded?? Listening to one of the boxing coaches, he stated that there was no need for the the boxers to rush off after success and become professional as they were currently earning nearly as much as an amateur - I dont know how that is supposed to work as that is not an amateur in my books or by definition.
Roughly Sport Funding from central coffers comes from 2 sources.
UK Sport for Elite Sport which funds the potential Olympians. UKA receive a settlement every 4 year cycle and the new settlement will be announced on the 12/12/12 and will commence in April 2013.
Each sport is assessed on it's performance in the previous period and so cycling might receive more and swimming is worried incase they lose funding.
Previously Gymnastics and Judo have lost funding but battled back this time around.
Sports have to demonstrate that they have a good chance of getting to Rio - eg Handball UK only got in as we were at home. They would have to improve a lot to have a chance of qualifying for Rio so may lose their UK Sport money in the review.
Sport England is for Grass Roots sport whether club based or non-club initiatives.
So handball could still receive assistance from this source.
The funding comes mostly from lottery but also from central government and then the individual sports go out and try and attract commercial sponsors, such as UKA have done with Aviva and McCain.
It's not quite a simple as having a four year build up. Sometimes shit happens, illness, injury etc.
But questions will be asked in all sports - even the most successful ones. I am sure that UKA could have done some things better. Of course I'm not ideally placed to comment, but it's fair enough that we can have a debate.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
WP - thanks for the insight. I had read a couple of things online about how the funding works and the 'home team' not having to qualify for some events and I think that it has certainly brought some of the lesser known sports into the spot light so fingers crossed they will be able to develop their sport for the future.
Personally I think that overall Team GB did fantastic and completely out did the anticipated collective performance. After all we are only a small nation with limited resources.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
SL - Agree - it was a fantastic event from start to finish and the competitors and the backup all did great. I can see though that swimming and athletics didn't really excel in the same way.
We had 3 Olympians at BBH. Sam Murray who won the Silver in the Modern Pentathlon is BBH and we have never had one of our members at the Olympics ever before, so it was extra special for us. Holly Bleasdale the Pole Vaulter started of with BBH and Sophie Hitchon was a Pendle athlete until 16 and I'm sure those at Pendle shared our excitement at seeing Sophie and the other young athletes on the World stage, just as forumites in general did with the Brownlees.
You feel part of the occasion yourself.
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Re: Olympics 2012 - Athletics
High point for me was Jack Maitland being interviewed on R5 about coaching Brownlees....didn't mention Guiness once!!!