Slowing down to speed up?

Hi All,

I'm a complete fell novice and only marginally more experienced in running/racing more generally. I've done a number of 'trail' races (EnduranceLife coastal series - 10k) and have started to place fairly well in them this year. I've started competing (well, taking part at least) in the South Wales Winter Hill Series and am finding it really difficult to pace the races.

In the trail races (and other stuff - Park Run 5k (PB 19:18), the odd flat 10k race (PB 39:43)) I've been getting by on basically running as fast as I can and hanging on in there. Suffice to say this 'strategy' (if it can be called that!) has not been working out on the Hills. Basically, I'm getting caught up in the initial run from the line as I feel pretty good and am at a 'trail race pace' that I could sustain. By the time the hill comes I'm leaking places like anything. This was particularly bad at Tor Y Foel at the weekend and, although like usual I regained a couple of places when things got on the level again, I was pretty p#ssed off (with myself) by the finish line.

So, I'm wondering if pacing myself from the off and saving it for the 'lumpy bits' is the right thing to do - would I end up even further behind as I'm not making the most of the only (slight) strength have at present - speed on the flat? I'm going to give a more steady pacing a go in the next race but, for now, is the answer a) man up, eat more Weetabix and get out on the hills more b) a better pacing strategy c) continue to just run as fast as I can and learn to live with it.

Any advice very much appreciated.

Rob

Interesting reading this as i am pretty new to fell racing too. Ive run for years and trained on the fells with my old man for football fitness but only just started to race properly. Like you i am fairly quick on the flat, (roughly same 5k times there bar a few seconds) and i also start strong in races where i feel comfortable but start losing places left right and centre when i hit the very steep stuff. I learned to push on runnable climbs and keep my pace up but when it comes to walking i drop quite a number. Now this also happened to me at Tor Y Foel where i was in a good position all the way to the main climb then BAM they start sneaking past. I'm going to keep using this method as its paid off in a few super short races (3mile) as i am a very confident descender (had 3rd place in the bag on jubilee plunge until i went over a wrong stile at the end. ha!) hoping that i get stronger at climbing also and can maintain that position.

I judge fell races by effort rather than pace
I usually have a rough idea of how long the race is going to take me - 40mins, 90mins, 3hrs... whatever
then I set off at the maximum level of effort that I think I can sustain for that length of time
most races you should have a good idea whether to apply, 5k, 10k, half-mara, mara or ultra effort

Agree with Daz. Another thing is look at the course record this will give you an idea of how long a race it would be if it was a flat road race then you can gauge the amount of effort to put in. For example the 13 mile Langdale horseshoe has a 1:55 course record. That is not much faster than a 26 mile marathon.

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Originally Posted by DazTheSlug

I judge fell races by effort rather than pace
I usually have a rough idea of how long the race is going to take me - 40mins, 90mins, 3hrs... whatever
then I set off at the maximum level of effort that I think I can sustain for that length of time
most races you should have a good idea whether to apply, 5k, 10k, half-mara, mara or ultra effort

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Thanks Daz and Patrick. I guess the problem I have, similarly to Athers, is that I'm unsure how to judge effort across a fell race. If it was flat, trail my 40min effort would find me in a decent position. This same effort, however, finds me knackered when it gets steep so it doesn't seem quite so simple to me as maintaining a sustained effort relating to length of race at this point. Hopefully I'll figure that out though!

I should add, I'm not obsessed by position and times and am loving what I have found in fell running. But part of that enjoyment is, for me, pushing to get better at it.

There are two schools of thought on this. Logically, you should run a steady heart-rate throughout the race. Anything else is interval training, and you don't want to do that during a race.

However, if you're naturally better at some bits, you might like to target those sections. For example, Ian Holmes keeps enough back for the descents so he can really go for it. Whereas Rob Jebb knows he'll get taken on the descents so has to flog his guts out on the uphill bits. I'm teasing RJ here - often he doesn't get caught; but you get the idea.

If you're a flat specialist you might like to set off quick, then be ready to slow up on the hills. This will be hard as you'll lose a lot of places. However, you'll then have the legs to gain places on the subsequent flat sections. I guess most fell races are flat-up-down-flat. In which case keeping your burst of flat speed to the end could be to your advantage.

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Originally Posted by noel

There are two schools of thought on this. Logically, you should run a steady heart-rate throughout the race. Anything else is interval training, and you don't want to do that during a race.

However, if you're naturally better at some bits, you might like to target those sections. For example, Ian Holmes keeps enough back for the descents so he can really go for it. Whereas Rob Jebb knows he'll get taken on the descents so has to flog his guts out on the uphill bits. I'm teasing RJ here - often he doesn't get caught; but you get the idea.

If you're a flat specialist you might like to set off quick, then be ready to slow up on the hills. This will be hard as you'll lose a lot of places. However, you'll then have the legs to gain places on the subsequent flat sections. I guess most fell races are flat-up-down-flat. In which case keeping your burst of flat speed to the end could be to your advantage.

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I used to be able to hold it in and get loads back.. if I was 5th at the summit I was fairly confident of top 3.. now if I hold my place its rare.. so I have to push much harder on the way up.. on a runnable track like descent, wyddfa et al, I can do OK on those.. it's the proper fell descents.. which was my strongest part.. is now undoubtably my weakest..

Not sure if its injuries.. lack of fell specific training age-related gain in sensibility or just going soft...

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Originally Posted by Robin S

Basically, I'm getting caught up in the initial run from the line as I feel pretty good and am at a 'trail race pace' that I could sustain. By the time the hill comes I'm leaking places like anything. This was particularly bad at Tor Y Foel at the weekend and, although like usual I regained a couple of places when things got on the level again, I was pretty p#ssed off (with myself) by the finish line.

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I have this problem and i put it down to leg power. Half the people who beat me on steep runs would lose to me on a flatter course.

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Originally Posted by Robin S

So, I'm wondering if pacing myself from the off and saving it for the 'lumpy bits' is the right thing to do - would I end up even further behind as I'm not making the most of the only (slight) strength have at present - speed on the flat? I'm going to give a more steady pacing a go in the next race but, for now, is the answer a) man up, eat more Weetabix and get out on the hills more b) a better pacing strategy c) continue to just run as fast as I can and learn to live with it.

Any advice very much appreciated.

Rob

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I don't bother to pace myself at all, but i only run on the short distance scene; i have run mediums at full throttle before, it just takes time to get accustomed. I started a thread called 'getting a good start' or something in which i debated the subject. I don't believe there is any point in saving energy in fell racing unless you are running over 10m.

Mr B. I am 100% on your level of thought with 100% maximum attack all the way from the gun. Although like you I'm only a fan of the shorter sharper races. 8 mile 2,500ft can be tough going full on but a 3 miler is not worth doing if you don't go at it hard. Just my opinion of course.

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Originally Posted by IainR

I used to be able to hold it in and get loads back.. if I was 5th at the summit I was fairly confident of top 3.. now if I hold my place its rare.. so I have to push much harder on the way up.. on a runnable track like descent, wyddfa et al, I can do OK on those.. it's the proper fell descents.. which was my strongest part.. is now undoubtably my weakest..

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I'm very much the same (except I was never confident of gaining places on descents). I have to push on the ascents.

It can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you're always knackered at the top, you'll never catch people on the descents. So you think you're a poor descender and have to put much more into the ascents... and the cycle continues.

These days I put it all down to fitness. If I'm fit enough to finish in the top 10, I will. It takes a lot of pressure off. I still push hard and know my strengths and weaknesses, but I'm less likely to get my split very wrong [famous last words...]

Thanks for the responses all. So more Weetabix, more hill reps, keep starting fast and grin and bear it!

Off to Angelsey for another EnduranceLife 10k this weekend - did it last year but have a feeling the 'ups' are going to seem pretty tame after the Blorenge, Skirrid etc!

Hill work is what i now concentrate on but speed i find is so important, can get you out of all sorts of trouble when the going gets easier/flatter. Just pul em in on the way down. :-) Good look with 10k. Yeah skirrid had probably the shortest but steepest climb i've ever raced. Clinging on was the only option. :-)

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Originally Posted by Athers

Hill work is what i now concentrate on but speed i find is so important, can get you out of all sorts of trouble when the going gets easier/flatter. Just pul em in on the way down. :-) Good look with 10k. Yeah skirrid had probably the shortest but steepest climb i've ever raced. Clinging on was the only option. :-)

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Cheers Athers. And yeah, the last slope on Skirrid probably qualified as a Grade 1 Scramble!

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Originally Posted by noel

If you're always knackered at the top, you'll never catch people on the descents.

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Never found that to be the case. I'm always knackered at the top and have always caught people on descents. At Wansfell this xmas i was staggering at the top my legs were that bad, proper jelly legs, i passed about 6/7 on the way down though. I don't think you have to be faster or less paggered than the person in front, just a little bit more committed.

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Originally Posted by Athers

Mr B. I am 100% on your level of thought with 100% maximum attack all the way from the gun. Although like you I'm only a fan of the shorter sharper races. 8 mile 2,500ft can be tough going full on but a 3 miler is not worth doing if you don't go at it hard. Just my opinion of course.

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Agreed. Matthew Athersmith is it?

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

Agreed. Matthew Athersmith is it?

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Not me i'm afraid.

the one and only unknown man of his sport Chris Atherton. :-)

ooh like this thread... in a similar boat, been swim, bike, run for 2.5 yrs not quite as fast as your run times.
im also at holyhead but for the 15.5miler this weekend, it will be my 2nd off road race (snowdon last year was my 1st) was wondering how to pace this - was thinking of taking it as a training run as it will be the longest distance i have run (conwy 1/2 mara previously 1.30.13 grr) and will take the longest amount of time. so there is no way i should be taking this as flat out and trying to hang on - i am hoping for 2.5hrs after looking at last years times.
is it a case of slow and steady gets to the finish rather than wins the race??

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Originally Posted by ben16v

ooh like this thread... in a similar boat, been swim, bike, run for 2.5 yrs not quite as fast as your run times.
im also at holyhead but for the 15.5miler this weekend, it will be my 2nd off road race (snowdon last year was my 1st) was wondering how to pace this - was thinking of taking it as a training run as it will be the longest distance i have run (conwy 1/2 mara previously 1.30.13 grr) and will take the longest amount of time. so there is no way i should be taking this as flat out and trying to hang on - i am hoping for 2.5hrs after looking at last years times.
is it a case of slow and steady gets to the finish rather than wins the race??

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The EL events are normally quite an easy field. You'll be fine - I'd recommend just taking it easy and pegging yourself in the midfield somewhere then pick up places in the second half as and where you can. There'll be people there, even in the half, who are just doing it for the challenege and to see if they can.

I remember the course for the 10k feeling contrived last year - lots of looping out and turning back (or that's how it seemed). Quite rocky and 'technical' too, but no massive climbs. Not so easy to overtake in some places though. The wind in off the sea was a factor too.

A mate and I are sleeping out near the race and if we're up and about early are thinking about switching to the marathon. Better than hanging around in the freezing cold!

At your next fell race have a go at purposely starting right at the very back of the field. I've done it a couple of times now (the Esk Valley fell races on the north york moors have kindly let me run with my border collie so long as I started at the back) and its unbelievably refreshing. First off you start off chilled out and with relatively low expectations, secondly you rarely get overtaken, thirdly you feel a right smart arse overtaking your way through :). I even set the current over 50 and over 55 record for the Blakey Blitz (if you believe their course records spreadsheet) starting from the back!

Not a bad idea that. If nothing else it will stop me bolting at the start with delusions of grandure (small ones, as in a top 20 finish...) and, like you said, far more relaxing over taking than been over taken!

The other thing I was thinking was staying next to/behind a guy who has always caught me at the top of the climb - I don't normally see him till I'm near the summit, but he always gets me in the end. I figured this would show if I'm going off too quick or am just a weak climber. I'll know it's the latter if we start the climb level and he pulls away.

Anyway, trying not to over think things - like Noel said, if you're fit enough, you'll be fast enough...

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Originally Posted by Robin S

I remember the course for the 10k feeling contrived last year

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What! A sensible mixture of high Cam Roads and natural horseshoes only for me :w00t:

Simply put though you are starting too quickly. Even a short race gives you plenty of time to catch up. Train for steep climbs and you'll soon get the hang of it.

Pacing a race is a personal thing so to be honest, listening to how others do it is not very helpful. How fast you can go and sustain is a function of fitness, confidence and experience. When you are fit and confident you can go off very fast, knowing that you can handle it; and experience adds in the innate ability to make an allowance for up/down hill and terrain preferences.

The problem is 'what does fit mean?' that's the variable for different races so you need to match your type of fitness to the race type/distance (i.e. manage your expectations).

Once you know runners the easiest tactic is to hook up early with those you want to finish around (being realistic). In long races, for the majority a steady start pays off - you will often see canny runners who are very good, pulling through as the race progresses. Short races, well everyone just has to go for it.

So what you really want to know is whether, after 25 years, you will be any better at sussing this out?


Nah, ya won't! Exactly the same me for ever since I first raced back in '86. On any race under 7-8 miles I basically just go for it. If I can keep it up, I know its gonna be a good day. If I flag, I know its gonna be a bit tougher.
But, taking it to extremes, I have several times blown up early in race and literally pulled over and sat down for a rest. After a few moments, everything seems to settle and I get back going again and usually pass everyone who overtook me within a few hundred yards. So, I've never been put off the fast start for a short/medium race.
Longs are something else. Then I make a special effort to rein myself in. Best advice I can give is to peg yourself back with someone who you know will usually beat you on a long (and hope he's not having a bad one himself!!)

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Originally Posted by noel

These days I put it all down to fitness. If I'm fit enough to finish in the top 10, I will. It takes a lot of pressure off. I still push hard and know my strengths and weaknesses, but I'm less likely to get my split very wrong [famous last words...]

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I noticed this thread had resurfaced and re-read what I'd said previously. They were famous last words indeed. I did Kinder Downfall yesterday and had to stop racing after about half way round the course having got my split completely wrong. :)

The big thing about fell races and I guess xc and some trail, is that you often need to learn the route to get you're absolute best out of yourself. Then just as you've got it sussed you go off too hard and blow-up half way round!!! Shorts up to say 4 mile I'd go hard on (...this is assuming I'm fit!), longs over 10 mile I reign myself in so I go as even pace as I can, probably more even heart rate tbh. Its the ones in the middle I still have to think about and all this depends on amount of climb, terrain etc!

Hadn't checked back here in a while but thanks for the more recent replies people.

So I'm a few more races older but not much wiser it seems!

After a decent finish to the South Wales Winter league (for my first season anyway), I'm still having trouble reigning it in. Ran the Exmoor Endurance Life 10k (well, 7.3 miles) and did the same again. Went off fast - led for the first km or so - then, at the start of the climb, started leaking places. Felt dreadful nearing the top of the main climb but, interestingly, as soon as things leveled out I felt great, clawed a couple back and closed the gap to those still in front of me from the 4 mile checkpoint to the finish. We'll see what difference knowing the courses makes in the Winter league this year - must surely help (although knowing what's coming for Blorenge might not...!).

Intuitively, and increasingly empirically, Tim K seems to be right: "Simply put though you are starting too quickly. Even a short race gives you plenty of time to catch up. Train for steep climbs and you'll soon get the hang of it."

Conclusion? I'm a flat specialist in the land of hill/fell racing!

Am running the 'Beast' (23 miles or so) at the weekend so will definitely start steady at my 'I could run all day pace' and see how I go.

Cheers all. Honestly much appreciated.

Sounds to me like if you crack it you could go places :)

Personally I do think you can learn over time but as everyone will keep telling you there are lots of variables that affect how a race works out. Enjoy your long race and just think of how much you'll have left in the tank for the second half if you start well within yourself (don't let them get too far out of sight though....:wink:)

cheers
Tim

Cheers Tim - will definitely bear those words in mind!

At the risk of turning this thread in to the Diary of a Novice Fell Runner, the Beast (all 23.5 miles of it...) went pretty well. Took it easy (although probably could have eased off even more) for the first 12/13 miles or so and felt ok. Hit a real rough patch around about 17 miles (just before the last climb...) but kept plodding on.

Was also getting cramp in my calves when transitioning from ascent to flat/descent in the second half of the race which wasn't much fun (any advice here? eating? hydration?), but dragged myself round in 4:13.

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Originally Posted by Robin S

At the risk of turning this thread in to the Diary of a Novice Fell Runner, the Beast (all 23.5 miles of it...) went pretty well. Took it easy (although probably could have eased off even more) for the first 12/13 miles or so and felt ok. Hit a real rough patch around about 17 miles (just before the last climb...) but kept plodding on.

Was also getting cramp in my calves when transitioning from ascent to flat/descent in the second half of the race which wasn't much fun (any advice here? eating? hydration?), but dragged myself round in 4:13.

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The cramp is almost certainly because your legs haven't spent enough time climbing. Drinking plenty of fluids can help but its only by doing loads of (preferably steep) hill climbs/descents that will really stop you getting cramp

Cheers Stolly. Congrats on the Fellsman btw. Would love to have a crack at that one day.

Well done in the Beast race, that was a tough grind over the hills, though no enormous climbs it was fairly relentless and energy sapping. I struggled something terrible for the first 2 hours and felt awfull, but just ground away and finished at a good pace. Lovely day out.

Yes, nothing particularly steep but definintely a long slog. I was the opposite felt like I could go all day up till about 2.5/3 hours and then dropped right off.

Great day though - the support from marshals and villagers was amazing!

Definitely gave me a thirst to do more long events and I'll be putting in a load of extra miles over the summer.

Don't be too scared about blowing up..

Better to live one day as a wolf and all that..

Its just if it happens week in week out its an issue.. but look at the top runners in the big races, especially races like the Y3PS and you'll often see a few of them way down the results.. and you think 'oh they had a bad run'.. but in reality they had a brave run.. sometimes it goes well sometimes not.. but running OK in every race of a year seems a waste..

The worst thing you hear is 'Yeah I ran well I beat X'.. and you know X blew up.. its just a fake plus.. means nothing.