Ultramarathon advice

Hello all, I'm aiming to complete a double crossing of the Lyke Wake in 2008. I have researched the training needed,(www.ultrunr.co.uk is great) . I did the LWW last yr and doing it this year along with some marathons and LDWA events. My doubt is how long do u think my longest run should be prior to the 84 miles of the double lww. I thought two thirds would be good but an ultra before an ultra seems overkill and may be overtraining, any ideas?
My weekly totals will be in the 70 to 100 mile p wk range including some quality fells.

It depends what you're aiming for really. If you just want "get you round" fitness, then you can get away with a lot less than a 2/3rds distance training run. I did my WHW run (95 miles) in 2005 with a 27 miler as my longest run and before Christmas with a 38 miler.

I know an ultra runner who never trains longer than 3 hrs working on the basis that recovery time starts eating into training time if your long runs are too long.

I would have prefered to have been able to clock up higher weekly mileages than my peak of 60 miles because I sure I would have slowed less if I had.

I think if you're in the 70-100 range you shouldn't have any problem. Mentally, I'd find it hard to reach the end of a 42 miler and then turn round and run all the way back, I prefer A to B where every step is progressing you towards the finish. At least you'll know exactly where the halfway point is though. :D

Any particular reason for this run or just a personal challenge?

Cheers Running Fool. Your mates idea about recovery is interesting. I'm just doing it 'cos it's there' lol. I suppose i'm doing it because i'm not sure i can do it, if that makes any sense. We all know we can complete smaller fell races in various times (mine usually slower) but, the challenge is not knowing if you can do something , then trying to do it. Well done on WHW , i fancied it , walked it a few times, lovely walk. Slept on floor in Doune Bothy (not recommended , very uncomfortable).

Most I know don't train much over 30, as that distance can be ran without any harm being done. I've done 40 ish a few times but that's more to get used to the mental side of the game. Other times I've ran 40 or 50 miles have been other ultras. Try and build up a port folio of runs, they are cheap to do and make the logistics easier, buit also allow you to qualify for other international events, especially the US ultras which want qualifying times.

I run 40 - 60 mpw but with around 3000 m of ascent, but the long hill days are very useful, a 10 hr hill day leaves me stiff but I can recover quickly as I havn't done that much milage and the tarrain has varied, on contrast a 6 hr trail run really does leave me in pain.

Another question on the same theme would it be a good or bad idea to run the Fellsman on the 12th may then the WHW race on 22/23 june.

My long runs at the moment are between 25-30 mostly off road miles, which are not yet causing discomfort.

I need all the advice i can get

It depends on how you are training, you can do an Ultra before an Ultra as long as you've got the long runs in your legs you should be able to run an Ultra and Bounce into training for the next one. Also the distance in Ultras varies considerably for example training for a 30 miler is completly different to training for a 6 day challenge and the two distances are different specialities in there own right. I've personaly only ever cover 100k and no further, although I would like to do a 24hr race its said to be very difficult to come back down in distance after running one.

Typically I would recommend 2 long key sessions a week i.e 1 on a Wenesday and the Other Saturday. Still do some speed work as in 3 x 10 mins and even that sort of speed work won't take any from your legs if your doing the distance work as well. But basically Ultra Training is about making your long runs your key sessions.

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Originally Posted by JohnK

Another question on the same theme would it be a good or bad idea to run the Fellsman on the 12th may then the WHW race on 22/23 june.

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I would have thought they would be very compatible with each other. 6 or more weeks in between should be sufficient time to recover, especially if you are used to doing long runs anyway.

Thanks guys your comments are in line with my thoughts With the only difference being my long run is done on a Friday (i dont work fridays) but i guess i could put another in on a Tuesday, but its difficult to avoid tarmac on week nights this time of year, and i hate long runs on tarmac but then i guess i could go off road night training although that would inevitably be slower.

Thoughts Please

Great thread this.

Dont know how to help you much John-but find it fascinating reading the thoughts of the peope who do.

I read several books over Christmas to do with people who undertake these absurdly long events and find im both horrified and intrigued at the same time!

it's nearly all in the mind , big bad baz, the training is the hard bit, u HAVE to run no matter what the weather or commitments, means less beer (shame) but u cant do both, well i can't. The 'race ' is great cos like fell races, peolple help each other, share food , water etc. I carried a blokes rucksack cos he was jiggered for a while. I guess it's more , will i finish, not what time. I'll never win a fell race but i love the whole ultra and only if off road, i'd never do a track 24 hr that would be too hard.

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Originally Posted by Alf Tupper

it's nearly all in the mind , big bad baz, the training is the hard bit, u HAVE to run no matter what the weather or commitments, means less beer (shame) but u cant do both, well i can't. The 'race ' is great cos like fell races, peolple help each other, share food , water etc. I carried a blokes rucksack cos he was jiggered for a while. I guess it's more , will i finish, not what time. I'll never win a fell race but i love the whole ultra and only if off road, i'd never do a track 24 hr that would be too hard.

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24 hrs on a track? I think id lose the will to live.

Ive read several stories as i said before about this and the impression i get is that there is something almost spiritual (eek...i dive for cover..and i promise you im not religious..) about running these sort of distances.

I would wonder how many people have only done 1 ultra?

I say this because thay seem to be quite addictive? Wether it is the camaraderie or possibly how much you learn about yourself when trotting through the early hours?

I found them quite compelling and inspiring accounts.

Thanks AT i have already given up the beer in preparation for the WHW my diet is changing and yes i do train regardless of the weather, in fact i hope to put in a 30 miler tomorrow, probably all low level as opposed to my favored choice of the tops of the lakeland fells, as i figure the mileage my suffer if there is wet snow or ice on the tops, and at the moment i think mileage is paramount.

The WHW will not be my first Ultra but it will be the first that i run with a target time in mind and that i will have trained specifically for, i.e i want to get it right.

The mental aspect of ultra running is also in my training program as i believe that if i am convinced that my training is right then come 0100 hrs at Milngavie my focus will be 100% and it should stay that way as long as i know that everything from shoes, nutrition,hydration etc etc has all been tried and tested.

Sorry if i ramble on a bit but i would like to provoke input from anybody that feels they can add something.

Incidentally if the WHW goes to plan i have penciled in a BGR in august depending on recovery etc.

Thanks for the comments to date, keep them coming.

Best of luck John.

Come on-there are plenty of you out there who can give him some good advice?:)

When does a long race end and an ultra start?

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Originally Posted by johnnybike

When does a long race end and an ultra start?

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Anything above 26.2 miles i believe.

Well I must have been an Ultrarunner at some time whooooo whooooo
I am thinking of doing the Bullock Smithy in Sept again so at 56 miles that will definititely count.

I've long held the opinion that doing the longer stuff is more fun than the shorter races. Finishing the events is where the satisfaction comes in. After all, if you are like me you will never be able to do a sub 38 10k, but can you push yourself to keep going to do 30, 40, 50, 60 miles. The answer is YES. It is all mental when it comes to middle of the night and you're cold and wet and tired. But when the sun rises and you hear the first birds, the feeling of exhilaration is amazing.
Start slow, walk the ups, jog the downs and flats, eat and drink plenty. Dont stay too long at the CP's. And when you feel its hurting, think of your loved ones and smile.
Good luck to you.:D

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Originally Posted by JohnK

Thanks AT i have already given up the beer in preparation for the WHW

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:eek: :eek: :eek: Going a bit dangerously overboard there surely?:D

Tim

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Originally Posted by runningfool

:eek: :eek: Going a bit dangerously overboard there surely?:D

Tim

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Nope don`t think so i wan`t to hit my goal on this, i will do a bit of catching up as soon as i hit Fort Bill;)

Thanks for the tips Denzil probably meet you at the bullock Smithy.

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Originally Posted by JohnK

Thanks for the tips Denzil probably meet you at the bullock Smithy.

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Bullock Smithy is on the agenda as part of the Montrail Series. If you get chance go and do the Wuthering Hike too. It would be good prep ! Its also organised by our illustrious moderator/administrator, Brett !!;)

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Originally Posted by Denzil

Bullock Smithy is on the agenda as part of the Montrail Series. If you get chance go and do the Wuthering Hike too. It would be good prep ! Its also organized by our illustrious moderator/administrator, Brett !!;)

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It`s on the list of to do`s as are several others of the Montrail series, i can`t think of a better way of preparing for the WHW than doing the Montrail races, it`s got to be better than putting in all the long run`s on my Todd.

Only 24.5 miles done today mostly off road and in plenty of heavy going mud great fun, mv Border collie was in her element.

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Originally Posted by JohnK

Nope don`t think so i wan`t to hit my goal on this, i will do a bit of catching up as soon as i hit Fort Bill;)

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I take my hat off to you sir. You clearly take these things rather more seriously than I do. Care to share your goal time with us (or at least your range of times)? Are you gunning for Jez's time?

Tim

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Originally Posted by Gellmeister

It depends on how you are training, you can do an Ultra before an Ultra as long as you've got the long runs in your legs you should be able to run an Ultra and Bounce into training for the next one. Also the distance in Ultras varies considerably for example training for a 30 miler is completly different to training for a 6 day challenge and the two distances are different specialities in there own right. I've personaly only ever cover 100k and no further, although I would like to do a 24hr race its said to be very difficult to come back down in distance after running one.

Typically I would recommend 2 long key sessions a week i.e 1 on a Wenesday and the Other Saturday. Still do some speed work as in 3 x 10 mins and even that sort of speed work won't take any from your legs if your doing the distance work as well. But basically Ultra Training is about making your long runs your key sessions.

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Hi Gellmeister... if that's you Colin... everyone on this thread should listen to any advice you have for them... Personally i think your 'Mental'

If anyone reading this, thinks i've just insulted this Great British Ultra Runner... Please take into account... this Nutjob! went for an approx 26mile warm down run, round the streets of London, after having just raced in the National X-country at Parliment Hill 2006.

So Full Respect is due!!

Oh and did i mention he did all this, on just some Fruit and half a Ham Sandwich...(no i'm not kidding)

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Originally Posted by runningfool

. Care to share your goal time with us (or at least your range of times)? Are you gunning for Jez's time?

Tim

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Yes i will share my goal times with you all, a little closer to the event,
As for me having a crack at Jez`s time i reckon i am a bit old for that but a comparative age related time would be good, and you will be welcome to join me as i catch up on some of the lost drinking time when i get to Fort Bill.

JLH i listen to and try all advice, and and often use a lot of it.

I found the advice that geillmeister offered up to be very interesting and with your endorsement much of the training advice will be implemented.

keep the the tips coming please.

all good advice. I walk uphills to conserve energy and jog downhills and flats, jog/run 25 min then walk 5 , sometimes drop that to 15 -5 . If it means going thru the night then practice night running and night navi. Mental side is crucial, i take great solace from small things -sight of a deer, sunrise, nice view, + generosity of spirit of other competitors and supporters sometimes really 'gets u there'. Ultras are like a whole other sport, at one time few thought they could do a marathon, now everyone does it. Same for Ultra type events, enter it if u think u may not finish. Mad eh?? I took a small radio but only listened to it for about half hour, i found it annoying as reception was poor.
Keep those walshes dirty!!! alf

Thank`s Alf but i think i will give the radio/mp3 player a miss, as i prefer natural sounds i.e. bird`s water etc, but running the flats and descents, and walking the ups,etc are all bang on.

Good luck with theLWW.

Alf,
Have done lots of 50 milers no problem but for a 100 miler I went on my own through the night - no fixed distance, just to keep going through the night until 6am the following morning just for the hell of it - this was 3 weeks before the race. Race went OK (got some blisters but mentally I was quite strong towards the finish)
Best of luck in your attempt!

some good websites around on this www.slb-coaching.com , comprehensive! An interesting but sadly out of print american book www.oldmp.com old mountain press. Its called the Ultimate challenge by Walt Esser ISBN 1-884778-96-8

I've encorporated swimming in with my fellrunning to help develop other muscles and core (we all hate core exercises, don't we ?) also my theory is that it'll help prevent injury. Didn't realise swimming was so technical until a read about it on this site.

Thanks A T good links, have you seen WWW.brianmac.demon.co.uk/corestab.htm

ultra distance i believe officially begins at 50k/31 miles.

a good book of tales of ultra distance runners is 'running through the wall' by neal jamison. they are tales of runners that compete in 100 milers in yankee land.

if you visit www.williamsichel.co.uk/ :eek: you will find a nutter i have visited in sanday, orkney who is the 2006 distance champ. he competes in extreme ultras.

The Bible of Ultra Running is

'Lore of Running' By Proffessor Tim Noakes

The Governing Body is the IAU
www.iau.org.tw

The best website is
www.coolrunning.com.au

In this country the Roadrunners Club has done the most to protect the sport

and there is also a 100km Association club dedicated to just Ultras, whilst the Road Runner Club is the biggest club in the country.

Bisto and Oxo's Dad is still the British Record holder of the 50km

And not to mention Elizabeth Hawker (GB) is current World Champion of the 100km distance:D

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Originally Posted by Gellmeister

The Bible of Ultra Running is ..

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A far better book is:

A Step Beyond: A Definitive Guide To Ultrarunning Edited by Don Allison.

Ultrarunning Publishers, Weymouth, Massachusetts

and available from www.ultrarunning.com

A great bargain at just $19.95!!

It may be possible for a UK running shop to bulk buy a quantity of these books at a reduced price and also limiting the cost of postage and packing.

Cheers dudes, both great thanks. Some of these ultra runners are inspirational aren't they. Wonder if ultras will become more popular here, i find i do LDWA events because of the longer distances. My dog loves all this running, loads of rabbits to chase up on Cronkley fell yesterday.