Stretton 27 Apr: Champs Race 2

Goody bags should keep AndyA happy then! Pre-entries preferred, £2 each, standard FRA Junior form

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Cheques for pre-entries payable to "MERCIA FELL RUNNERS" please but don't worry if you've sent one payable to Pauline, we'll sort it. Entries on the day will also be available but it will help us a lot if as many as can pre-enter over the next few days.

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Post to Pauline Richards, 23 St Annes Road, Collegefields, Shrewsbury, SY3 6AU
Course & venue info here
Facebook page here
http://merciafellrunners.org.uk/file...s2.preview.jpg

Maps for the event centre, parking and all the race routes can be printed from here.

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Originally Posted by LissaJous

This should keep AndyA happy then!

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Oy!

I heard that!

(hmm....goodie bags eh?.....tempting.)

Unfortunately I suspect that you won't see many Clayton Juniors there, purely because of the travelling time (well over two hours from Burnley).

Nothing against the venue/course, they can't all be local, hope it's a success etc.

I'm sure one or two diehard runners with keen parents may make the trip anyway. I'll certainly publicise it through the club but we'll be operating our training sessions as normal on that day.

Hoping for a full complement of Rossendale Juniors there despite the travelling.

Nice one Lefty. How many roughly?

There are some other details on the event facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/events/499349576756853/

Cheques for pre-entries payable to "MERCIA FELL RUNNERS" please but don't worry if you've sent one payable to Pauline, we'll sort it. Entries on the day will also be available but it will help us a lot if as many as can pre-enter over the next few days.

Look forward to seeing you...

Jim

Looks good and hope its a great success as new venues/races make it all very interesting unfortunately though its not on the list of 4 from 6 for us at Calder Valley because it would be 6 hrs in a car for the round trip. Sorry I'm sure it represents some great opportunities for those that do travel to pick up some valuable points and fair play to that.
Good luck everyone.

I am very concerned that having read the following quote on the Facebook page for this event; "U18s is a little under 9km, U16 a bit under 7km. We were asked to provide proper routes, apparently a lot of the junior athletes were complaining that last year's champs races were too easy. " Having attended all of last years events and talked to numerous athletes, parents and coaches this is not the impression that I got, in fact Cowpe has been shortened this year for the older age groups. If anything there were concerns that some of the courses were too long and dangerous in places for the U16 age group. When the phrase "a lot" is used I always want this supported by facts and figures as one of the major issues in junior fell running is the high drop out in U16 and U18 age groups; having overlong courses is just going to add to this problem as does unnecessary fixture clashes. I wonder who asked for these courses to be near maximum distances and who were the junior athletes that complained that the courses were too easy?

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Originally Posted by Gazmuz

I am very concerned that having read the following quote on the Facebook page for this event; "U18s is a little under 9km, U16 a bit under 7km. We were asked to provide proper routes, apparently a lot of the junior athletes were complaining that last year's champs races were too easy. " Having attended all of last years events and talked to numerous athletes, parents and coaches this is not the impression that I got, in fact Cowpe has been shorted this year for the older age groups. If anything there were concerns that some of the courses were too long and dangerous in places for the U16 age group. When the phrase "a lot" is used I always want this supported by facts and figures as one of the major issues in junior fell running is the high drop out in U16 and U18 age groups; having overlong courses is just going to add to this problem as does unnecessary fixture clashes. I wonder who asked for these courses to be near maximum distances and who were the junior athletes that complained that the courses were too easy?

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Last year, the Cowpe U16 course was altered (combined with the U18s race) at short notice due to the International team having no other plan for a selection race. This was nothing to do with the Juniors team.

I believe the quote of races being 'too easy' must refer to races from a few years back. We have no intention of making the races harder than last year's, and would not be allowed to do so in any case.

The quote very clearly refers to LAST YEARS, if he meant previous years he would surely have said so. With regard to Cowpe last year, I feel passing the buck on the international committee is wrong as surely the junior committee should have inspected the course prior to the event and intervened if they felt it was not suitable for U16's. If it was not suitable they shouldn't have been allowed to run it. The course was so suitable that they only selected 2 girls and 2 boys were selected to go to the junior international instead of 3 as all the other runners struggled on the course and the course didn't help the athletes gain selection..

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Originally Posted by Gazmuz

The quote very clearly refers to LAST YEARS, if he meant previous years he would surely have said so.

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The quote might say last year, but I believe this is in error. Last year's ROs already had the same advice as was provided to Mercia for Stretton. Feel free to email Duncan if you are concerned.

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With regard to Cowpe last year, I feel passing the buck on the international committee is wrong as surely the junior committee should have inspected the course prior to the event and intervened if they felt it was not suitable for U16's. If it was not suitable they shouldn't have been allowed to run it. The course was so suitable that they only selected 2 girls and 2 boys were selected to go to the junior international instead of 3 as all the other runners struggled on the course and the course didn't help the athletes gain selection..

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It was not my call. I would have told the International team to find their own selection race, and not interfere with our carefully planned Junor Champs (for which the U16 course had already been 'inspected'). But once again, if you disagree with that particular decision, you could contact Duncan or the RO.

I think that you could moderate your tone a bit too.

The people organising this stuff do so with the best intentions and invest considerable time for little or no financial reward; they don't deserve anonymous beratement on internet forums.

Contact those whom you think are at fault and deal with it properly.

And returning to the thread......We in Nottingham cant wait I just hope that one or two others from the Notts area decide to participate. I am sure some of the Mansfield Harriers will be there. here's hoping for some good weather and conditions.

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Originally Posted by Gazmuz

The quote very clearly refers to LAST YEARS, if he meant previous years he would surely have said so. With regard to Cowpe last year, I feel passing the buck on the international committee is wrong as surely the junior committee should have inspected the course prior to the event and intervened if they felt it was not suitable for U16's. If it was not suitable they shouldn't have been allowed to run it. The course was so suitable that they only selected 2 girls and 2 boys were selected to go to the junior international instead of 3 as all the other runners struggled on the course and the course didn't help the athletes gain selection..

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Gazmuz - you raise some relevant points, some of which were raised last year, so let me try to be of help.

The FRA Jnrs were in a little bit of a predicament. The international committee has wrongly assumed that Coiners would still be available as a trial race and so fairly late in the process they piggy-backed Cowpe and I personally agree with you that Cowpe wasn't an ideal location for the trial as the terrain is typically rugged Pennine and not representative of European Mountain running.
I'm not a selector, but having seen the Cowpe results last year it was clear that they would have a problem.
The ages for last year were born 95 or 96.
Looking at the Boys - I think of the top 8 at Cowpe only 2 were eligible.
Looking at the Girls - the 1st eligible girl more than 6 minutes behind Annabel and they would have had to select someone around 10 minutes off the pace to take 3 that fitted the age rules.
This wasn't the first time as it happened at Coiners years ago when my daughter was too young as was Mel Hyder and Laura Riches, they only took 2 girls.

I went to Cowpe and without wanting to go over old ground, the terrain was actually quite OK, but perhaps the routes needed a little tweaking and the management of the start/finish areas in particular. But I think the ROs accepted the largely constructive comments that were given at the time and I am sure the race will be a great event this year.

Ref the Facebook quote, just remember you are quoting someone off FB that is drumming up interest in the race and so I think you have to cut them a bit of slack. I reckon the terrain down there is fantastic for junior fell - very similar to the Howgills - so I expect lots of happy young athletes coming away afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

The FRA Jnrs were in a little bit of a predicament.

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Trying to keep it on topic, but I will stress, the FRA Juniors were not in a predicament, and as usual our races had been planned up to a year ahead.

The International team were in a litte bit of a predicament; this committee has now seen some changes, and is looking a lot more organized.

Getting back on topic...could the race organiser please confirm whether what was said on facebook was correct and whether he was told that the races last year were deemed too easy and that he has designed these courses to be maximum distances and tougher than last years courses? The facebook page was surely designed to inform athletes about the race, if these comments were meant to drum up interest in the race and they have actually caused concern over the length and terrain of the race then maybe it would be helpful to clarify this as athletes and parents are basing their decisions on whether to travel long distances to this race on whether or not racing will be beneficial to the athletes and their short-long term development. This quote perhaps gives a further impression of the course " Get your U16s and U18s particularly practising on the steepest climbs you can find..." Thanks

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Originally Posted by Gazmuz

Getting back on topic...could the race organiser please confirm whether what was said on facebook was correct and whether he was told that the races last year were deemed too easy and that he has designed these courses to be maximum distances and tougher than last years courses? The facebook page was surely designed to inform athletes about the race, if these comments were meant to drum up interest in the race and they have actually caused concern over the length and terrain of the race then maybe it would be helpful to clarify this as athletes and parents are basing their decisions on whether to travel long distances to this race on whether or not racing will be beneficial to the athletes and their short-long term development. This quote perhaps gives a further impression of the course " Get your U16s and U18s particularly practising on the steepest climbs you can find..." Thanks

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As well as asking on the Facebook page (you cannot assume an RO will check on here every day), I have:
(a) looked at the courses (I was not previously involved with these), which do appear tough for the U16 & U18s but fine for the rest
(b) messaged Duncan with your concerns

Steep grassy hills are what you get at Church Stretton. If the RO is under the impression that anything harder than last year was asked for, then this was a misunderstanding, and the kind of thing that I am trying to prevent for the future with a race selection policy document. Following your enquiry today, I have already changed the wording relating to U16 & U18 distance expectations.

As has been mentioned, emailing Duncan or the RO would have been a lot more useful than complaining on here.

I know the planning involved, as you are aware.

Last year, the Cowpe U16 course was altered (combined with the U18s race) at short notice due to the International team having no other plan for a selection race. This was nothing to do with the Juniors team.

I would have told the International team to find their own selection race, and not interfere with our carefully planned Junor Champs

I would suggest that is a predicament - a difficult situation that you would rather have not had to deal with. Please stop picking nits LJ.

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Originally Posted by LissaJous

As has been mentioned, emailing Duncan or the RO would have been a lot more useful than complaining on here.

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Probably not.
Have you tried to email him lately :p

At no point in any of my comments did I complain, all I asked for was clarifications on race distances and on comments on FB by the race organiser which gave the perception that these races will be considerably tougher and longer than previous races. I now see that the U18 race winning time is expected to be 45-50 minutes, considerably longer than any race last year so perhaps my concerns were valid and that the junior FRA forum was a valid place to raise them.

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Originally Posted by Gazmuz

At no point in any of my comments did I complain, all I asked for was clarifications on race distances and on comments on FB by the race organiser which gave the perception that these races will be considerably tougher and longer than previous races. I now see that the U18 race winning time is expected to be 45-50 minutes, considerably longer than any race last year so perhaps my concerns were valid and that the junior FRA forum was a valid place to raise them.

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Apologies, your tone was however quite aggressive. Please be assured that:
(a) the comments on longer/harder courses are not 'official' policy for all our future races.
(b) Duncan & Jim are now aware of concerns about the U16/U18 courses at Stretton, and will respond when they have had the time to look into it.

The maps are available to scrutinise, the routes are in accordance with the FRA's distance limits, the guidance given to me as RO, and the Scottish Hill Running guidelines on junior course design which are the most comprehensive I can find. I apologise for the reference to "last year" which was in error. The routes are almost entirely on good paths and will be runnable for strong juniors with the exception of sections of th Caradoc climbs on the U16 and U18 courses. They are certainly interesting and there are no sections I would regard as "dangerous": in fact there are few objective risks other than a couple of sections of grassy path that can be a bit slippery when they are wet.

I hope this clears things up.

With regards to the travel issue I'm sorry Shropshire is so inconveniently far from the traditional epicentres in Yorkshire, Lancashire and Cumbria. Don't let the distance put you off, come and have a cracking day out and discover some new hills...

Jim (who will happily respond to any more queries individually by email - [email protected])

My thoughts are that best runners usually run well on all distances and terrains. (1 mile or 10miles I expect the order of Rivington results would be similar from age 8 to 18)

The only difference is that they are further ahead on the long courses.



The Implications for motivation and participation might be worth discussing.

Along with LTAD (Long Term Athlete Development).

While winning a race by a long way might make a youngster feel good, (+ his/her supporters), what is the impact on those behind ?

And usually, the longer the race the further they are behind. (with no one to run with because gaps can get big) in small championship fields that sometimes occur.

However, philosophically speaking, the great thing about being near the rear, is that you may have the greatest potential to improve, while those winning may have the least potential to improve.?

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Originally Posted by Mowgli

My thoughts are that best runners usually run well on all distances and terrains. (1 mile or 10miles I expect the order of Rivington results would be similar from age 8 to 18)

The only difference is that they are further ahead on the long courses.
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And usually, the longer the race the further they are behind. (with no one to run with because gaps can get big) in small championship fields that sometimes occur.

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Yep, I get that. If we have a very small number of entries (<20) for the U18 and U16 in total I will consider using the U16 course for both (I can make the decision on the day easily enough), but the bit we'd cut out includes some lovely running downhill on a sharp grassy ridge, a sunken green road typical of Shropshire, and the bottom half of the classic Caradoc climb done by 300 and odd people every December in the Cardington Cracker. We've had a bit of feedback from local juniors and they like it: in fact on of our U16s is gutted he's not old enough to do the full monty...

We do want to give all the juniors who travel down a taste of what fell running in our area is like, and not to just have them run effectively cross country courses which they could do at home. Also we're expecting big turnouts from local schools etc. and need to offer something distinctive and exciting to lure some of the athletes away from their x-boxes or football games.

Glad to answer any queries. PM me on here, Facebook message me, email at the address on my previous post.

Regards
Jim

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Originally Posted by Mowgli

My thoughts are that best runners usually run well on all distances and terrains. (1 mile or 10miles I expect the order of Rivington results would be similar from age 8 to 18)

The only difference is that they are further ahead on the long courses.

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Whilst 1 mile and 10 mile might be too wide a range the point made is absolutely spot on and I have this debate a lot around cross country as well.

What does make a difference is the technical nature of the terrain, how many climbs, where the climbs come in races, underfoot conditions.

To give you an example, Shuttlingsloe used to throw up some unusual results due to the downhill start and uphill finish and Wansfell a few years ago was just too extreme for many juniors.

But we best lay off Mowgli otherwise we'll get slapped wrists for going off topic :D

Any juniors, I'd urge you to go. It's usually an hour at least to your FRA race, so what's an extra hour each way to go and experience something new, fantastic terrain and maybe somewhere you'll want to return to again.

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Originally Posted by jtinnion

With regards to the travel issue I'm sorry Shropshire is so inconveniently far from the traditional epicentres in Yorkshire, Lancashire and Cumbria. Don't let the distance put you off, come and have a cracking day out and discover some new hills...

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Jim. You shouldnt apologise for that. We travel hours and hours almost every week of the spring/summer to go to fell races as indeed we generally have to for Young Athlete Track and Field meets, eg Bristol, Cardiff etc. Its an English Champs. Hopefully they will hold more in The Midlands in the future.

we shall be there from rochdale.. please can we be off on time as i have a football match in castleford at 3 o clock..
regarding the length of races debate.. short and sweet is what the kids at our club prefer.. like speed limits.. just because a figure is quoted doesnt mean you have to go that speed..

as rightly commented whether a race is 1 or 10 miles the winners will be the same the only difference being the rest will be much further behind, and that benifits no one.

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Originally Posted by withaY

we shall be there from rochdale.. please can we be off on time as i have a football match in castleford at 3 o clock..
regarding the length of races debate.. short and sweet is what the kids at our club prefer.. like speed limits.. just because a figure is quoted doesnt mean you have to go that speed..

as rightly commented whether a race is 1 or 10 miles the winners will be the same the only difference being the rest will be much further behind, and that benifits no one.

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This has to be tongue in cheek surely, please tell me it is.

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Originally Posted by Clash City Rocker

This has to be tongue in cheek surely, please tell me it is.

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Which bit?!

I'd agree with the comments regarding the length of races; longer is not better, it's just different.

Longer will test muscular endurance; something which is easily developed fairly quickly at any age with a fairly uncomplicated training regime (go out and run continuously in the hills for as long as you can, repeat as often as you can). It's certainly a test of ability but it mainly tests access to training time and commitment from parents.

Shorter will test technical ability far more; leg turnover, posture, stability. These are attributes which are harder to coach but are fundamentals that should be developed in preference to ability to plod along.

n.b; If anyone wants to pursue this discussion; please start a new thread! It's a debate that's worth having and I'm happy to contribute but not here, this is a race thread.

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Originally Posted by withaY

we shall be there from rochdale.. please can we be off on time as i have a football match in castleford at 3 o clock..

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Please note it's races FROM 12:00. We are starting with the youngest age groups and sequentially working through to the older age groups so with five races in total we anticipate the U16/U18 race will start about 14:15. This should give the older runners the chance to do a reasonable reccie if they arrive for 12:00.

We've not given out specific times for each age group race as having lots of folks arrive at the specific times for their races will give us a problem - the car park is 300m up a narrow lane from the road so we don't want a lot of traffic in two directions to manage. Also our registration team will be working on producing results for the first race by 12:30 so we don't want too many of them having to multitask!

We will have toilets and a refreshment/registration marquee at the event field so there will be somewhere to take shelter in case of adverse weather for anyone waiting for their race to start or for the presentation.

Don't bank on being back in Cas by 3pm - I don't think I could do that leaving Stretton at 12pm anyway, it usually takes me about 2.5 to 3 hours to get to Leeds!

Jim

[QUOTE=jtinnion;537265
Don't bank on being back in Cas by 3pm - I don't think I could do that leaving Stretton at 12pm anyway, it usually takes me about 2.5 to 3 hours to get to Leeds!

(/QUOTE]

we should be able to get the girls out and back on the u8 and u10 and be at Cas for the second half! youngest is looking forward to the race she knows her contour lines and loves a steep downhill!! ( shes not keen at all on the uphill bits though!)

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Gazmuz - you raise some relevant points, some of which were raised last year, so let me try to be of help.

The FRA Jnrs were in a little bit of a predicament. The international committee has wrongly assumed that Coiners would still be available as a trial race and so fairly late in the process they piggy-backed Cowpe and I personally agree with you that Cowpe wasn't an ideal location for the trial as the terrain is typically rugged Pennine and not representative of European Mountain running.
I'm not a selector, but having seen the Cowpe results last year it was clear that they would have a problem.
The ages for last year were born 95 or 96.
Looking at the Boys - I think of the top 8 at Cowpe only 2 were eligible.
Looking at the Girls - the 1st eligible girl more than 6 minutes behind Annabel and they would have had to select someone around 10 minutes off the pace to take 3 that fitted the age rules.
This wasn't the first time as it happened at Coiners years ago when my daughter was too young as was Mel Hyder and Laura Riches, they only took 2 girls.

I went to Cowpe and without wanting to go over old ground, the terrain was actually quite OK, but perhaps the routes needed a little tweaking and the management of the start/finish areas in particular. But I think the ROs accepted the largely constructive comments that were given at the time and I am sure the race will be a great event this year.

Ref the Facebook quote, just remember you are quoting someone off FB that is drumming up interest in the race and so I think you have to cut them a bit of slack. I reckon the terrain down there is fantastic for junior fell - very similar to the Howgills - so I expect lots of happy young athletes coming away afterwards.

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Re Cowpe.....the start finish area is different this year and much improved, as agreed last years start finish wasn't ideal. The start finish area is now right behind the Church Hall ( registration ) as are the portaloos etc so its much more compact. The under 8s under and under 10s courses are completely different whilst the other age group are changed for the out and back with some further alterations. Beware though its straight into the tough climb right from the start. Details of Travel etc can be found on the Rossendale Harriers website on the Juniors page and I am in the process of sorting out the maps which should appear in the same place this next week......and we should have tea and cakes. !!!!!

Good luck with your event Jim. Fantastic area for running, I'm sure everyone will love the event. Good to see that the Champs races are spread to all areas, that's how it should be.

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Originally Posted by Lefty

Re Cowpe.........and we should have tea and cakes. !!!!!

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Haha....Good job too Lefty. We are looking forward to it. I have never been to the infamous Cowpe before but heard they are real fell races. I'll come and introduce myself and the girls to you sometime during the day.

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Originally Posted by Corniceman

Haha....Good job too Lefty. We are looking forward to it. I have never been to the infamous Cowpe before but heard they are real fell races. I'll come and introduce myself and the girls to you sometime during the day.

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Be good to see you there.Please make a point of coming over and saying hello....it will be good to meet you. I've been out all this week running and mapping the routes and I have today put the maps of the routes along with some of the Garmin Stats on the Juniors page on the Rossendale Harriers website. As soon as Stretton is completed I will start a thread on the forum with more details and links etc. Any worries or questions hopefully I can answer them for you !

Guys - some important info. We had a great final meeting with the farmer last night.

One or two pieces of info. We're giving out the programme now, but you need to note that the car park is up an narrow lane, so it will be one way (in only) except for marshalls etc. between 11:00 and 13:15. It will be out only from 13:15 onwards. Please bear this in mind when timing your arrival and departure. Coaches and minibuses would be best to drop off at the bottom of the lane, there is good parking for both in a layby by Church Stretton School about a mile away.

Our registration team is also our refreshments and results team. This means that the registration process will be slower once the events are underway, particularly as results start to come in and runners start looking for tea and cakes (both of which will be on sale in the marquee). Would as many of you as can do therefore please arrive before 12 and register as you get there... It'll give the older ones chance to reccie their routes (but please keep out of the way of younger athletes racing while you go round). All the courses should be fully marked by 11am. We will not register anyone arriving at the marquee after 13:30.

The weather forecast is for cool weather with light to moderate wind and the possibility of light showers. Although there is no kit requirement there will be a fair bit of standing around, so please ensure you and your juniors have appropriate kit. There will be an area for this in the marquee but we can't be responsible for anything left there. The car park is adjacent so it would be best to leave any spare kit in your cars.

The timetable is below:

11:00 all courses marked, registration open, car parking becomes one way "IN" only
12:00 advertised event starting time
12:15 U8 race start (race numbers 1-50)
12:21 (approx.) fastest U8 runners finish
12:30 U10 race start (nos. 101-150)
12:41 (approx.) fastest U10 runners finish
13:00 U12 race start (nos. 201-250)
13:05 U8 / U10 presentations in / by marquee
13:15 fastest U12 runners finish
13:15 car parking one way reverses and will be "OUT" only
13:30 U14 race start (nos. 301-350)
13:40 last possible time to register for U16/U18 races
13:52 fastest U14 runners finish
14:15 U16 and U18 races start together (U16 nos. 401-450; U18 nos. 501-530)
14:25 U12 / U14 presentations in / by marquee
14:35 Tots’ fun run in event field (with parents)
14:45 fastest U16 runners finish
15:00 fastest U18 runners finish
15:30 U16/U18 presentations in / by marquee
16:00 expected time for all runners to have finished

Hope this is all clear, if anyone has any queries the best way of getting hold of me is to post on the facebook event page, failing that email me at jim dot tinnion at me dot com.

Cheers all. Looking forward to course marking on Friday and seeing you all on Saturday!

Jim

Courses are marked, start/finish set up, marquee up, almost ready!

Weather forecast for tomorrow is cool, breezy but mostly sunny with possible showers in the afternoon. Make sure you bring warm and waterproof clothes in case! Safe journey everyone, see you all tomorrow...

Jim

i ve got to say what a fantastic day!

from the off sturdy easily visible signposting.. helpful chaps in the spacious car park..loverly big marquee.. nice cake and butties.. effcient sign on.. maps galorse of the courses.. the BEST laid out start finish area fully taped easily understood.. easily followed routes with Massive and clear signage where age groups diverted. plenty of marshalls each with maps of route and fluro jackets.. well marshalled finish .. start times as published ... goody bags for the finishers..(proper big ones with energy drink fruit and chocs and sweets).. great prizes for the first three presented by a running legend tim davies..

a proper race worthy of the English championship and organisation that should be a benchmark for all others organisers in the championship. WELL DONE!

Glad it went well Jim... know how much work you've put into it

A great day had by all, well done all concerned!

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Originally Posted by withaY

i ve got to say what a fantastic day!

from the off sturdy easily visible signposting.. helpful chaps in the spacious car park..loverly big marquee.. nice cake and butties.. effcient sign on.. maps galorse of the courses.. the BEST laid out start finish area fully taped easily understood.. easily followed routes with Massive and clear signage where age groups diverted. plenty of marshalls each with maps of route and fluro jackets.. well marshalled finish .. start times as published ... goody bags for the finishers..(proper big ones with energy drink fruit and chocs and sweets).. great prizes for the first three presented by a running legend tim davies..

a proper race worthy of the English championship and organisation that should be a benchmark for all others organisers in the championship. WELL DONE!

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I can only agree with all of the above, what a fantastic venue, superb organisation, testing but hugely enjoyable routes this was a real cracker. Great to go to a new location, easy travelling, we all stayed at a premier inn for £29 and made a weekend of it, hope its in the calendar for next year already!