2103 Junior Fixture Clash

I'm not wanting to stir anything up, just to try and get a feel for what people think. I'm conscious that Duncan does a great job for us with the Junior races but we seem to have a serious fixture clash that could affect the integrity of the Uphill Champs and therefore the FRA Champs overall and the Club element.

The Sedbergh Uphill Champs on 8th June Clashes with the recommended National Date for the County Track and Field Champs and the vast majority of counties will go on that date.

Schools have first claim on athletes and clubs and coaches have a duty to encourage their athletes to be involved in the County Schools T&F Champs.

10 of the 12 athletes that competed for BBH at Rivington have a good chance of being involved in the Lancs Schools.

If that is replicated across clubs then not only the turnout will be hit at Sedbergh, but the integrity of the uphill champs if some of the podium places go to athletes who may normally struggle to make the top 10.

Likewise most of the podium potential athletes in the overall champs will in effect be faced with a 4 from 5 rather than 4 from 6 which may water down the quality of the overall standings come the end of the season.

The team event is also likely to be affected significantly.

I understand that some of the problems faced with looking to move the date are that the People's Hall isn't available and that the School also cannot be used as an alternative venue.

Personally I'd rather change date and rough it - take the chance that in June or July we'll get a reasonable day to be able to operate in the open air - that's in effect how Rivington was run on the junior side.
Or if we cannot change date at Sedbergh, perhaps we should look for another venue?

I'd be interested what other people's thoughts are on this.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Schools have first claim on athletes and clubs and coaches have a duty to encourage their athletes to be involved in the County Schools T&F Champs.

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Can you elaborate on that statement a bit Richard?

Where does it say that schools have first claim?

The second part of the statement I'll have to take your word for as it doesn't really apply to us; Clayton aren't a T&F club and have no intention of being so.

I wonder how many other fell clubs are really that bothered about the County Schools T&F champs; I suspect it's just a problem for BBH alone?

If you are correct and turnout is affected by some athletes doing the T&F event then, rather than adversely affecting integrity, perhaps the race results will more accurately reflect those athletes that are dedicated to fell and mountain running; aren't they the athletes that the FRA should be recognising with its championship races and developing in the future?

I should point out that it matters little to us; we aren't intending to target Sedbergh anyway, although we probably will have a few runners turn up.

RULE 5 FIRST CLAIM STATUS
(1) Where athletes are at school, that school shall always have first claim
on their services irrespective of any other claim on them.

UKA Rules - it usually comes up with the English Schools XC Cup where some of our girls including WPette in teh past were involved in a Saturday XC for school that always seemed to clash with the 2nd Mid Lancs.
We also had the Blackburn Schools XC that was often 1st Saturday of December and clashed with Red Rose.

We as a club, and I as a coach have to encourage athletes to take part in the school event ahead of the club or individual event.


Looking at Fell Clubs
Helm Hill - they will definitely lose some athletes including Duncan's son.
CVFR - Max Wharton will almost certainly be county schools bound and I'm sure others will.
CLEM - I don't know where your athletes are at school, but each Town Schools area (Pendle, Burnley, Rossendale, Hyndburn & Ribble Valley, Blackburn with Darwen, Rossendale in East Lancs) picks a town team.
They have year 8/9, year 10/11 and 6th form.
They have up to 3 in each event.
They have 800m and 1500m for 8/9 and 800m, 1500m, 3000m and chase for older.
So you can see that if you are in the top 10 or so endurance athletes in your age group, in your town, then there is a good chance that you may get selected to compete for your town at the Lancashire schools.

I would suggest that based on the form of your athletes as Pendle and Rivington, you have 4 - 6 athletes that you may lose if they get in to the Town Schools selectors radar.

Just looking at one age group, the U14 Girls which is a category I know well. I could see that the Top 15 in the FRA Champs might be competing in their County Schools that weekend.

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Originally Posted by AndyA

If you are correct and turnout is affected by some athletes doing the T&F event then, rather than adversely affecting integrity, perhaps the race results will more accurately reflect those athletes that are dedicated to fell and mountain running; aren't they the athletes that the FRA should be recognising with its championship races and developing in the future?

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I would tend to agree with you IF this clash was a Track and Field league fixture. That has happened to us quite often in the past and as a club we allow each junior to make their choice on what their personal priorities are.
But as it is a school fixture, we as a club and I as a coach don't have a choice.
The athlete also doesn't have a choice to a degree, it's a selection for their town team. It also is a chance to qualify for the English Schools Track and field Champs and fell running has a very good record of our top junior athletes being able to compete at all disciplines at very high levels.

Ok, thanks Richard I guess that explains it, sort of. I had thought that the first claim/second claim business was all to do with who an athlete represents at a specific discipline, not which fixtures have priority but maybe I've misunderstood that one. I'm fairly new to this and have no schools involvement as yet (my kids are too young to be involved in representing schools).

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

But as it is a school fixture, we as a club and I as a coach don't have a choice.
The athlete also doesn't have a choice to a degree........

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That statement worries me a bit, the athlete always has the choice. As coaches our moral duty is to put the interests of the athlete first, before ourselves, our club or any other interested body, including a school. If one came to me asking my advice about which fixture to target, my advice would be governed by their welfare and athlete development only and any uka rules would take second place. I'm sure you'd be the same Richard, perhaps it's just the way you've worded it?

It's probably all a bit academic anyway Richard; I think it unlikely that Duncan will either want or be able to alter the fixture at such short notice, even if the evidence is that some key players will be missing.Let's wait and see what the other club coaches say.

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Originally Posted by AndyA

That statement worries me a bit, the athlete always has the choice. As coaches our moral duty is to put the interests of the athlete first, before ourselves, our club or any other interested body, including a school. If one came to me asking my advice about which fixture to target, my advice would be governed by their welfare and athlete development only and any uka rules would take second place. I'm sure you'd be the same Richard, perhaps it's just the way you've worded it?

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Only if you take it too literally.
If an athlete is selected to compete in a schools event then they should compete for their school, unless there is a pressing reason for them not to do - let me give you an example.
I had a couple of girls asked to run for their school in the ES Fell at Sedbergh a few years back. They were competent 800m runners, but 4 miles and 1500ft over Winder would not have been in their best interests and I advised against it and intervened with the school.
But turn it the other way around, if a school selects an athlete who is a competent fell runner to represent them in a 800 or 1500 on the track, that's not going to affect their welfare or well-being.
Yes the athlete may prefer to go elsewhere, but I would still try talk to the athlete about the merit and benefits of school or town schools representation and how it may actually be beneficial to them in the longer run.
One of the merits may be the maintaining of good relationships with other athletes. If you team mates go, but you pull out to pursue individual interests, then that may actually be more pleasurable to the athlete on the day, but may create issues within the group further down the line.

It can be quite complex, but in principal, schools events should get first call.

Some good points there Richard.

Lets see what happens, hopefully it can be worked out ok.

Witton Park - there are always clashes and it's tough! Sorry. I'm sure you will sort it out with your athletes and leave Duncan (and all the others who spend hours sorting out the junior fixtures) in peace!

Madeleine,
That's an uncalled for chippy comment from you.
We've not had an FRA Race clash with the County Schools Track and Field in the last 8 years that I have been involved. I'm not having a go at Duncan, far from it. I've been in discussion with Duncan and tried to help him find a solution to it.
I'm trying to see if my counterparts at Holmfirth, Scarborough, Rossendale, Scarborough, Helm Hill, Wahrfedale, CVFR.... have concerns.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Madeleine,
That's an uncalled for chippy comment from you.
We've not had an FRA Race clash with the County Schools Track and Field in the last 8 years that I have been involved. I'm not having a go at Duncan, far from it. I've been in discussion with Duncan and tried to help him find a solution to it.
I'm trying to see if my counterparts at Holmfirth, Scarborough, Rossendale, Scarborough, Helm Hill, Wahrfedale, CVFR.... have concerns.

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I take your points here Richard and the date rather worries me too as I had not got any track and field scheduled in for that weekend at all so I will need to chase Notts AAA to see what is on. One thing though you must remember that although fell centres around the North, (lucky you) others away from the main centres and clubs you have listed also compete and love the sport just as much as you do in Blackburn. Its harder for us to just turn up and arrive and in order to get my girls (who incidently are also pretty competitive on the fell as well as the track!) to events we usually have to plan and book our weekends and stays in endless Travelodges months in advance. just changing a date at shortish notice doesnt work that easily and a rescheduling might be disadvantagous to others and certainly my two girls who will then have to rely on points from 4 out of the 6. Looking at my calander we have no free other weekends where the girls are either not competing on the track for their club or travelling far and wide to a fell event. I really hope this event doesnt have to be rescheduled but if so thats the way the cookie crumbles!

well as a parent only one person makes the choice of where to race..
these young people race because they like to run, some because its a day out with thier mates, some because thier half decent, some for the craic.. but as a young person they have the ultimate choice of where and when they run, not a rule book written by middle aged folks who know better.

( our sports teacher told me that the kids at school do too much sport , they havent had a sports day for 2 years as the kids are 'too tired'.. so its unlikey we ll be getting a call from her school.. )

WithaY
Love it !


With regards the clash, I guess it gives the hill specialists a chance to go one up on those multi-tasking their abilities.
Choices + priorities, etc.

I have just found out that The Nottinghamshire Schools T and F champs are to be held on Friday 7th June. I dont know whether other counties will go for a Friday rather than the Saturday?

I didnt realise this, but have just found out that the county schools champs are for year 8 and above. Therefore this will impact on the u14 and u16 races at Sedburgh but shouldnt impact upon the U12.

and U18s who are thin on the ground as it is and most of our top fell athletes are multi-tasking as Mowgli puts it.

Only just realised that the Witton Park ' summer ' relays are only a couple
of days before the Fra English champs races at Hawckwick which unfortunately means that none of our juniors will be able to attend Richard which is a shame as they all enjoyed them last time.