Is it a contradiction?
yours truly,
the blue touch paper kid.
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Is it a contradiction?
yours truly,
the blue touch paper kid.
No surely the BGR is the route. A successful BGR would imply in under 24hrs and hence eligible for membership of the Bob Graham Club.Quote:
Originally Posted by keswicksimon
I suppose the superb 26 hr+ efforts by Clair and Andy over the past two weekends has highlighted this. The two of them deserve to be in the club for what they achieved. But I suppose if that was allowed how would you decide when the weather is bad enough to warrent waving the 24 hr rule?
Or the level of injury sustained etc etcQuote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
No-one's being forced to make their attempt in rubbish weather. If they do and fail to get round sub-24... well, good effort and everything, but tough.
A little bit harsh. Getting all of the support crew and logistics together for a particular date is no mean feat. Many people could well feel that if they let down their support crew by canceling they may struggle to get it arranged again.Quote:
Originally Posted by elliptic
FFS get over yourselves in the big scheme of things what does it really matter? 24 hours or 24 days what ever you the contender is happy with
I'd suggest that any supporters that feel let down because an attempt is cancelled due to the weather are showing a distinct lack of understanding of both the BGR and mountains in general and are probably ones that you can manage without. I've been involved with numerous attempts over the last 20+ years that have been either abandoned or pushed back because of the weather and in every case all I've heard are supporters immediately offering to be back for the next attempt/rearrange their weekend if at all possible to go 24 hours later.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
Having a back-up plan e.g. go 24 hours later in the case of bad weather is just good mountain craft and very much part and parcel of the BGR.
I agree,I supported around in truly awful weather few years ago rained heavily all day low clag and gales but they did it and under 24 hours to. If your strong enough you'll do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by elliptic
I was lucky I had nice weather but its the Lakes it does tend to rain,bank on it being shit and if its nice,bonus. If your not confident don't go simple
Leave yourself at least a two day window over the weekend for an attempt. You're pretty unlucky if both days are pretty shite...
Exactly! People are mixing up two seperate things: 1) The Bob Graham route is just that - a route around the hills. Go and do it over 3 days if you fancy, you've still done the route. 2) The Bob Graham Club - if you want to be part of this (and it's not compulsory!) then you need to do it under 24 hours, whatever the weather, whatever else you come up against. If you get round in 26 hours when you were wanting to be in the club....well, tough, not this time. Try again. Weather FFS? We're in the mountains. I've seen one friend in particular battle around over half of the route twice in horrendous conditions before calling it a day. He returned and completed on a better day. That's why it's a real challenge still!Quote:
Originally Posted by Amex
Nah.. it was a great effort regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
But the rules for BGR are quite specific, and it diminishes those who do push to get around in 24 in bad weather, even winter.
Both will no doubt do a BGR in more settled weather and will be stronger from their experiences.
Weather is so subjective, one mans bad weather is another mans heaven..
Claire surpassed anything she has ever done before in terms of time and distance, so she'll have benefited massively from the attempt, mentally and physically, and its early in the year so another attempt this year is very plausible.
Plenty of people do fail, look at Nicky Spinks? How many failed rounds has she had? Was it 6 for the Bob, 1 for the Paddy, 1 for the Rigby?.. I think the Ramsay went in 1.. so 8 failed rounds and is now one of the greats of long distance fell running.
No.
If you do the BGR, in whatever amount of time, then bloody well done to you. Even more so if you have done so with minimal support and no navigational help.
However, the Bob Graham Club has a standard, and that standard is sub 24 hours. Yes, not allowing someone into the club because they haven't made the cut is elitest, but surely thats the damn point?!
Without upholding standards it degrades the efforts of those who have tried and excelled, and indeed, those who have tried, failed, tried again, and then got the standard. If you want to get in the club, train more, suffer more and run faster.
Its clearly a moot point. But I tend to think that the Bob Graham Round is a 24 hour challenge and its not really the route thats the Bob Graham Round per se. ANY attempt to get the round done is a big major effort and should be congratulated, failure to complete or get inside 24 hours is just that..a 'failure'. But as Amex says each attemptee gets what they can and/or want out of it and in the real sense just toeing the line at the Moot Hall is a success!! Its similar to people who claim to have completed a Marathon when in fact they've walked half, a still comendable effort but not for me a Marathon completion.
To be honest, I'm not even sure the Bob Graham Club has much to do with it either. If anyone goes out solo and makes an honest claim to have completed it its a completion! More so than someone who goes round in 24hr 1 minute. Then it gets complicated and we all think too much about it!! Its there to do, do it how you wish!! Enjoy!
Its not overly elitist anyway, that is the beauty of the BGR its a challenge possible for most fell runners if they focus on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by zephr
Its like the walkers doing the welsh 3000ers in 24 hrs. Its possible, but very hard work.
I know there has been talk about whether the PBR should have a 24 hr limit.. but Paddy is quite keen it retains its informal status. Adding one also changes the history as Wendy's round would be removed.
But they are two very different rounds, the paddy you can do on your own and just email Paddy.. the Bob you can gain status to the club and get the dinner.. with the paddy you just get your name added to the spreadsheet.
Its like sub 4 Jura's.. I reckon my 4:05 (when I came 4th) or so in 2009 was a better run than my 3:42? (when I came 9th) run in 2008, but I only got the glass for 2008. Its arbitary but thats the system.
SecondedQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr1470
Dam right. If your over the 24 hours your not in the club, rules is rules, what does it matter though, if your happy to get round in any time, well done, you can always try, try again. As for letting supporters down, nonsense, I ran over from Honister to Wasdale for Daz's round, hung around for a while, then ran back. Didn't feel at all let down, had a good trot, got soaked and bloody loved it. And I'd do it again for others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amex
http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/image...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Mr1470 http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/image...post-right.png
Exactly! People are mixing up two seperate things: 1) The Bob Graham route is just that - a route around the hills. Go and do it over 3 days if you fancy, you've still done the route. 2) The Bob Graham Club - if you want to be part of this (and it's not compulsory!) then you need to do it under 24 hours, whatever the weather, whatever else you come up against. If you get round in 26 hours when you were wanting to be in the club....well, tough, not this time. Try again. Weather FFS? We're in the mountains. I've seen one friend in particular battle around over half of the route twice in horrendous conditions before calling it a day. He returned and completed on a better day. That's why it's a real challenge still!
Hmmm. Now its highlighted I'm waivering in my standpoint. I'll have to have a think.....didn't Bob Graham himself do it in over 24 hours!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
Rumour has it Bob Graham could never be arsed to do the round, and any footage of it was filmed in studios in Ealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy
Isn't it all about a good long day in the hills? Theres rules what we all know about it we want the status etc but isn't the essence being lost, and if the time doesnt matter on Claires round for example then surely her 3 day round should count as well? A completion especially in crap weather must be real achievement but it is a completion not what bob graham set off to do and what we're looking to emulate? If your changing the time why not change the route to? Just my pennies worth
So I'm wrong on two counts! Bob Graham of course did do it inside the 24 hrs to set the tops completed within 24 hours record. AND as Mr1470/Stagger point out its the Bob Graham 24 HOUR CLUB! My mind is now clarified on the subject...I think!?
Erm, I think you're confusing Nicky with another Penistone runner here, Iain; Nicky did the BG first time - see http://www.runbg.co.uk/Bob%20Graham.htm - though you're right her first completion of the Paddy was outside the 24 hours ... which, I agree, certainly supports your broader point that every round, 'successful' or not, is a learning experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
He did it in less than 24 hours but was his route not slightly different to today's route?Quote:
Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy
yes it was differentQuote:
Originally Posted by Richard Head
Alan Heaton became the first to repeat and better Graham's round in 1960, though the tops Heaton chose were not the same as Graham had visited. Graham included:
High White Stones
Hanging Knotts
Looking Stead
High Snab Bank
These were replaced by:
Whiteside
Helvellyn Lower Man
Ill Crag
Broad Crag
Should it not be the Alan Heaton Round then?Quote:
Originally Posted by andygib1982
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Head
What's always confused me is how do you get from Raise to Helvellyn without going over White Side and Helvellyn Lower Man?
As someone still bearing the scars (well bruised toe and numerous areas of chaffing) of my 25+ hour anticlockwise rain and clag infested jaunt at the weekend I have to say that I am feeling surprisingly un-disappointed with life and that was after being almost an hour up on a 23 hour schedule at one point. Okay so no place at the dinner table in October and no 4 UTMB points but the adventure of the day and the fantastic support both from pacers and navigators and my wonderful family at the handover points were what i shall ultimately look back on and cherish with the fondest of memories.
The rules of admission are fiendishly simple and should stay that way. If at any point in the future I feel the urge to join the club than I shall just have to hoof it back down to the Lakes from Bonnie Scotland and try again. I am after all a mere humble runner with much to be humble about.:wink:
Really? I was sure Nicky had 5 or 6 attempts at the BGR?Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFlash
Can't see any mention so maybe I'm confusing someone else...
Actually think I confused Nicky and Bob.. not sure how I did that..
Personally I wouldn't set off if the forecast was really bad, as, for me, a big part of it is to enjoy a great day out, not just complete a physical challenge. While I have plenty of respect for those who complete it in bad conditions, that's not what it's about for me.
The issue of putting your pacers out in terms of them travelling a long way etc etc is a real balancing act. The wish to avoid making complex logistical plans that are subsequently cancelled is why my running partner and I have tried not to over-organise our PB and CR attempts... but the flip side is that this risks being under-supported!!
Which is a good link into asking if anyone fancies a trip to Glen Nevis on 15/16 June to help out with our CR attempt - your support would be very welcome... but on the understanding that if the forecast is rubbish we won't go!!! Transport from Penrith and free performance-related beer included!
Me, MrRTS, Winnie and the tent are doing the BGR over 3 days in July/aug/sept (weather depending for when) hopefully that will lead to MrRTS having a go next year at the 24hrs :)
I agree that you should keep the 24hr rule as it's like everything in life it's something of a benchmark aim :thumbup:
For me the aim is to survive doing it over 3 days ;-)
I'd imagine by the time I got to 26hrs, I'd be glad just to finish. But I would want to finish.
In certain respects the time element is somewhat irrelevant to me. But then, I don't race as time and position are somewhat irrelevant to me when it's relative to what others have done or what standards are set.
Horses for courses.
Cant's say I agree with this. A Bob Graham Round is something you do inside 24 hours, it doesnt matter whether it was a brave attempt or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
I don't think you read my second sentence, I actually agree!Quote:
Originally Posted by Craghopper
I supported a round last year and was nav for leg 5 where the person was only a couple of minutes inside 24hr pace in bad conditions it would have been very harsh if it was just outside you always take a risk if you go on 23.30 schedule thats why i will carry a cushion
I suppose it's time I proffered my view on the matter.
I think among the wider fell running/walking community, virtually everyone would expect anyone claiming to have done the BGR would give a time in under 24 hours.
I think I would be correct in saying, that of the individuals who attempted the BGR, got back to the Moot Hall, but failed to make it in under 24hours, virtually none would say they've done the BGR.
I have immense admiration for individuals who, through various reasons, successfully finish the route of the BGR knowing they have missed the 24 hour deadline. But for me they have only completed the route and not the Bob Graham Round.
Simon
The BGR is already rapidly becoming the London Marathon of the fells so why even think about reducing the challenge further by allowing longer than 24 hrs.
After all there is already a relatively obvious path to follow thus simplifying navigation, which is now mostly taken care of by the use of GPS.
TBH i reckon it is about time, times became quicker simply based on superior equipment, easier pathfinding etc.
As already said the BGR is a route the challenge is the time.
As to weather so what, choose the right equipment and train in all weathers and just get on with it.
I've done the BGR twice. First one in summer in 23:32 on a half dry, half wet but very light and warm day and the second one in 24:22 on December 18 2009 in arctic conditions, minus 10 and lower temperatures, a grim northerly blizzard for the last 6 hours and 16 hours of darkness. Guess which one I'm most proud of?
Achievement in the mountains is personal. Time is but one measure.
The 24 club and and the round itself are two very different things. One's a club, the other is a personal experience. Both great and wonderful institutions but different.
Well said.Quote:
Achievement in the mountains is personal. Time is but one measure.
Achievement in the mountains is personal. Time is but one measure.
well said
ill second that .