Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Aye the big difference is the heat.. Snowdons almost always a warm day..
I tend to suffer more at the Ben, not cramp, but muscularly..
Which muscles cramp?
I find that loads of banana's have made a change in how often I get cramp.. but I also now salt in advance.. so lots of salt on food which seems to help.. especially when training in hot places, like TX.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
I too suffer with cramp when its particularly warm and the session / race is intense, I use Hi5 Zero tabs and drink this inplace of regular drinks (tea coffee juice etc) for a day or 2 before hand as well as on the morning of the race itself, touch wood = no cramp.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Thanks for replies.
It is the calf muscles.
I'll try salt / Hi5 for a few days beforehand, I haven't previously tried electrolyte stuff etc prior to the morning of the race.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
So its in the more runnable races? The Ben is basically a hill walk..
Snowdon you actually run a good 75% of it at least.. similar edale?
Do you have tight calfs? a weakness there?
I tend to get it in my groin if ever I do, but its pretty rare.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IainR
So its in the more runnable races? The Ben is basically a hill walk..
Snowdon you actually run a good 75% of it at least.. similar edale?
Do you have tight calfs? a weakness there?
I tend to get it in my groin if ever I do, but its pretty rare.
I didn't think I had tight calfs or a weakness, but might be worth stretching specifically beforehand...........
You pointing out the runnability has made me realise that maybe my hill training is too steep, ie too much 'hill walk', better for ben nevis, but not enough running for snowdon.
I do the same hill training for snowdon and ben nevis which can't be right.
Maybe I need to find something not as steep and more runnable for snowdon training.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
You need to practice the same gradient, for the same length of time, and going up it the way you do in the race.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Lack of salt for the amount of sweating, combined with long hard efforts seam to lead to a build up of lactic acid. I think this is the combination, and reason, that gives me cramp. I think liquid is needed to get enough salt through fast enough during a long hard run, the only other way would be salty food with plain water. I have tried running with a minimal liquid and food intake and have cramped up a lot near the end after about 4 hours.
I agree that training for the gradient of climb will help. Snowdon is in a lot of parts runnable, finding those sorts of runnable climbs to train on would definitely help. Probably in you getting used to processing lactic acid efficiently at the given effort levels. Intervals too..... Horrible I know but useful.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alan Lucker
Lack of salt for the amount of sweating, combined with long hard efforts seam to lead to a build up of lactic acid. I think this is the combination, and reason, that gives me cramp. I think liquid is needed to get enough salt through fast enough during a long hard run, the only other way would be salty food with plain water. I have tried running with a minimal liquid and food intake and have cramped up a lot near the end after about 4 hours.
I agree that training for the gradient of climb will help. Snowdon is in a lot of parts runnable, finding those sorts of runnable climbs to train on would definitely help. Probably in you getting used to processing lactic acid efficiently at the given effort levels. Intervals too..... Horrible I know but useful.
Aye before the snowdon race I always had a few key sessions.. first was tempo runs for 20 mins, either to half way, base of allt moses or the top half, and a few continual runs up, plus reps on that sort of gradient, 5 x 4 mins, and then a steep steps session.. which I think helps for allt moses itself.. so vivian steps..
The main thing was undoubtably getting used to running and not walking at that gradient, its far more runnable than most proper mountain fell races.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IainR
.. most proper mountain fell races.
LOL
Funnily enough I seem to be more liable to cramp in a long race with a lot of steep power-walking; this might be because most of my training is done actually running, and usually on nice firm ground or rocks. At Cwm Pennant on Saturday I eased off a little on the squidgy grassy ascent of Hebog to avoid trouble later in the race (succesfully).
As I've said before, I put salt in my cups of tea on a routine basis. The only time I have struggled with cramp in recent years was at Borrowdale last year, but I was just back from travelling, racing, and being very sick with stomach flu in mainland Europe, and not very focussed on my race prep.
I think a lot of people don't know how to do the power walking very well. Whether walking or running slowly, but even more so when walking, it's about maintaining constant push as much as possible. Technique and sure-footedness plays a big part in this ~ some Calder Valley guys at Hebog a week ago were saying I benefit from my long stride on some of the steeper uphills, but I would say both they were knackering themselves running on short flatter bits that I was walking, and then messing about using hands on steeper rocky stuff where I was walking up it like a road. This is because I'll stand on my foot on almost anything. Occasionally I'd do a little jump to get up a big step, but as infrequently as possible. If I do this, then I'd not fully extend my leg on landing ~ it's all about conserving energy.
Walking vs running again: I think the walking uses less energy overall on very steep ground, but probably greater force/work through the calves. Anyone agree/disagree?
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Agree with all of your post.
I suppose its a matter of the more you do something the better you become at it. I do a lot of flattish runs, and struggle on steep climbs, mainly durring long efforts.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
I also agree. I'm new to the steeper stuff and have weak calves in comparison to a lot of the seasoned fell runners. I actually find it easier to run when steep, but then I'm knackered very quickly. If I walk I conserve energy, but my calves feel it so much more. I've tried experimenting different ways, but I guess the only way I'll improve is to get fitter and do more steep hills!
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Like others I think the cramp issue is partly about doing things you're less used to. I do long runs (30+ miles) on my own without ever getting cramp, but they're mostly fairly easy paced, at most steady. However, I've recently had twinges of cramp on shorter (5-10 mile) races. I don't really understand it (was always adequately hydrated, salted, etc.) but can only assume it's because I'm running much harder/faster, putting the muscles under slightly different stresses. [I'm not denying longer runs and hotter conditions will also be a factor sometimes, clearly they are.]
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
whilst there's a lot of salt/electrolyte related anecdote around and this used to appear to be backed up by some science, the physiological evidence is fairly conclusive that runners' cramps are not related to these factors. There's a good summary of the current state of the science in Tim Noakes' excellent recent book Waterlogged. The best evidence at the moment does seem to point towards myofibrillar trauma from using the muscles for activity well in excess of trained volume or specificity. There's also a good chapter about it written for a more general readership in the Runners World book The Runner's Body. So the science is with training volume and specificity to match your racing goals. And then there's the whole compression gear can of worms still to be properly opened...
P
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Thanks for all replies.
I'll try to train harder and recreate the race terrain etc more closely, race more (I don't do many races and I find it difficult to push hard in training) and salt / high5 load a few days prior to the race.
It feels odd to actively add salt to things as it is generally something I try, without success, to reduce. I guess the thing is to minimise it as much as possible normally and then load up a few days leading up to the race.
Iain, I can't imagine eating more bananas than I do already, but maybe I could find something similar to go with the bananas? - avocado, butternut squash......
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A-B
..and salt / high5 load a few days prior to the race.
It feels odd to actively add salt to things as it is generally something I try, without success, to reduce. I guess the thing is to minimise it as much as possible normally and then load up a few days leading up to the race.
As I said, I add salt routinely, according to training load. It's as important during training as during race prep and is related to cellular hydration, which you want to maintain at all times. Having done that, I don't further boost it before race days. It's after race day that it's more important, if you have become dehydrated. If you keep feeling much more thirsty than usual, then a nun tab in your drink will help the body absorb and use the water.
Edit: I hope that didn't come accross as harsh, I just mean that you may as well add your salt over a longer period of time rather than doing anything different and cramming it in as race prep. And I agree completely with training on the right terrain for the race and getting your body used to working hard.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LissaJous
As I said, I add salt routinely, according to training load. It's as important during training as during race prep and is related to cellular hydration, which you want to maintain at all times. Having done that, I don't further boost it before race days. It's after race day that it's more important, if you have become dehydrated. If you keep feeling much more thirsty than usual, then a nun tab in your drink will help the body absorb and use the water.
Edit: I hope that didn't come accross as harsh, I just mean that you may as well add your salt over a longer period of time rather than doing anything different and cramming it in as race prep. And I agree completely with training on the right terrain for the race and getting your body used to working hard.
No not harsh at all, I appreciate any help. I just think of salt as a bad thing generally to add to food etc, but I am not very clever and do not have any knowledge of nutririon etc.
If you are training regularly and running a decent amount of weekly miles, does this mean that adding salt generally becomes less of a health risk than for someone who does no exercise.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A-B
No not harsh at all, I appreciate any help. I just think of salt as a bad thing generally to add to food etc, but I am not very clever and do not have any knowledge of nutririon etc.
If you are training regularly and running a decent amount of weekly miles, does this mean that adding salt generally becomes less of a health risk than for someone who does no exercise.
In your case I don't think salt will help too much ~ it's not a very long race and the specific/hard training should help a lot more.
Everyone needs some salt as part of their diet, which you need to add yourself if you often cook from scratch, but may get too much salt if you eat ready-made meals and take-aways (etc). The need for salt increases if you do lots of very hard training.
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
We evolved in a low salt environment and our bodies are actually very good at holding onto salt - which creates problems in Western society as many foods contain a lot of salt - bread/cereals/crisps are the obvious ones but there are plenty more - you would have to try pretty hard with your diet to not get enough salt. Sweat contains more water than salt - it only tastes salty as the water evaporates, and kidneys can cut salt excretion to close to zero when necessary. Hunter gatherers manage on well under a gram of salt a day, and they do quite a bit of exercise ..... the more salt you eat, the more your body will excrete in urine/sweat - and the chances are the higher your blood pressure will be. I realize this will be an unpopular post with some ....
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike T
I realize this will be an unpopular post with some ....
creationists? :angry:
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
paulo
whilst there's a lot of salt/electrolyte related anecdote around and this used to appear to be backed up by some science, the physiological evidence is fairly conclusive that runners' cramps are not related to these factors. There's a good summary of the current state of the science in Tim Noakes' excellent recent book Waterlogged. The best evidence at the moment does seem to point towards myofibrillar trauma from using the muscles for activity well in excess of trained volume or specificity. There's also a good chapter about it written for a more general readership in the Runners World book The Runner's Body. So the science is with training volume and specificity to match your racing goals. And then there's the whole compression gear can of worms still to be properly opened...
P
There is a summary piece by Joe Uhan on iRunFar.com this week that provides a useful summary of the science. Link below:
http://www.irunfar.com/2013/07/cramping-my-style.html
I am part way through "Waterlogged" but find myself going pretty slowly through the text. Link below to the Kindle edition:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterlogged-...es+Waterlogged
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
paulo
whilst there's a lot of salt/electrolyte related anecdote around and this used to appear to be backed up by some science, the physiological evidence is fairly conclusive that runners' cramps are not related to these factors. There's a good summary of the current state of the science in Tim Noakes' excellent recent book Waterlogged. The best evidence at the moment does seem to point towards myofibrillar trauma from using the muscles for activity well in excess of trained volume or specificity. There's also a good chapter about it written for a more general readership in the Runners World book The Runner's Body.
I totally agree with that - its all about fitness for what you're undertaking. In the olden days running something like the 3 Peaks I'd be riddled with cramp, whether I'd drunk loads or not, by the top of Whernside and crippled come the finish. Nowadays I'm not which can only be down to fitness and the amount of ascent I do
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
Paulo has mentioned "The Runners Body" by Tucker, Dugas and Fitzgerald.
Tucker and Dugas are the men behind the Science of Sport website and they have a useful addition to the literature on cramping here:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007...-part-iii.html
Re: Cramp – Snowdon Race.
As a suffer of cramp in longer races 2hr plus I read this thread with interest before preparing for a long race last weekend. I decided in my wisdom it was lack of salt that was my problem so tried drinking High 5 0 a couple of days before the race and adding extra salt to my food before the race and to the water bottle during the race. However, after flying along for the first couple of hours suddenley started to get twinges of cramp in calves with still at least 2.5 hours to go by end of the race all the muscles in my legs were cramping at different times.
So in conclusion it looks like it was more to do with muscle fatigue (mentioned in the links above) as I ran long distances before without cramp but at a much less intensity, so it sounds like need train longer and harder at race intensity to prepare for longer races pretty obvious when you think about
