Interesting BG recce route.

Just back from a BG reccie - makes a useful circuit, leg 3/4
Glorious day, but hot yesterday.

Start seathwaite up grains gill to esk hause, then drop down to rosset taking in bowfell, or to shorten it join before great end.then round rest leg3' and all leg 4 to green gable.
A mainly grassy descent from green gable of mile or so down to sour milk gill , a bit of a scramble, and the car.. Turns out honister is only a mile from seathwaite over a grassy plateau to sour milk, so can go all the way to honister this way although did not do that looks fine on the ground All of the rough stuff and the crux of the round in one reccie.

Planning a bigger one. Start rossthwaite up green upedge to high raise, ( roughly 3 mile) then most if leg 3 all 4. , 5 up to dalehead, then use the borrowdale rcae descent to get straight back to rossthwaite..and car At standard pace that is 10 hours. The useful aspect is that only an hour and a half is off the route, yet starts and finishes in the same place.

Food for thought?
Makes a good day on the hills

I did your first one recently (Seathwaite-EskHause-GreatEnd-RestOfLeg3-Leg4ToBrandreth-Seathwaite)
- lovely day out, and a great way of practicing going in/out of Wasdale

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Originally Posted by DazTheSlug

I did your first one recently (Seathwaite-EskHause-GreatEnd-RestOfLeg3-Leg4ToBrandreth-Seathwaite)
- lovely day out, and a great way of practicing going in/out of Wasdale

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I did the same route a few weeks back too.

ATB

Tahr

Nothing new I am sure.
But despite recceing and supporting for over a decade- nearer 2 ! Like many I guess, I had a fixation that the Bg is made up of legs, so you reccied legs which gives transport problems. Only just managed to break out of the tramlined thinking!

It is on big days out like that in heat that that issues such as water become crucial, so am still convinced that for example the direct line fron yewbarrow before col, down grass towards red pike both allows water and I think is faster than dore head it is certainly shorter , runnable and the height loss is not a great deal. Also the value of going to the stream before aming for great end.

the first is one off my regular routes
i also do circuit from wasdale starting with yewbarrow tops to great gable styhead tarn up to esk hause tops to scafell then back into wasdale shorter day but ideal for a pace session
on second one i would probably extend it for a bit and probably go to hinscarth and robinson

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Originally Posted by vespa

the first is one off my regular routes
i also do circuit from wasdale starting with yewbarrow tops to great gable styhead tarn up to esk hause tops to scafell then back into wasdale shorter day but ideal for a pace session
on second one i would probably extend it for a bit and probably go to hinscarth and robinson

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So that day out of wasdale race proportions is just a fast sprint for vespa!

Chapeau! As they say in cycling.
I hate to think what is a long day out if that is only a pace run!:

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

Start rossthwaite up green upedge to high raise, ( roughly 3 mile) then most if leg 3 all 4. , 5 up to dalehead, then use the borrowdale rcae descent to get straight back to rossthwaite..and car At standard pace that is 10 hours.

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I did this precise route, starting at 4am on a chilly November day when training for my winter round. Took me 11 hours at a steady pace. I really enjoyed it and it did me the power of good. Dropping off Dale Head in the dark through those quarries whilst a bit knackered was entertaining. If you do it then I hope you enjoy it.

the last time i did the seathwaite route was on reccee with leeds flyer i had descended only to realise i had left ice axe at summit of scafell so had to go get it and descend again only to see they had ascended yewbarrow so had to catch them up this was after i had done seathwaite to esk hause in good time i could,nt fast sprint at moment

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Originally Posted by Mark Smith

I did this precise route, starting at 4am on a chilly November day when training for my winter round. Took me 11 hours at a steady pace. I really enjoyed it and it did me the power of good. Dropping off Dale Head in the dark through those quarries whilst a bit knackered was entertaining. If you do it then I hope you enjoy it.

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Useful to know Mark, thanks.
Out of curiosity , other than leg supports , how many "big days" (greater than say 6 hours) did you do in preparation for rounds?
Was that just one big day of 11 hours? Or did you do several?
PS - by that I meant 10 hours on route. Add 1.5 to and from rosthwaite to BG tops - so 11.5 total - which you beat.
,

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Originally Posted by vespa

the last time i did the seathwaite route was on reccee with leeds flyer i had descended only to realise i had left ice axe at summit of scafell so had to go get it and descend again only to see they had ascended yewbarrow so had to catch them up this was after i had done seathwaite to esk hause in good time i could,nt fast sprint at moment

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All I can say is **wow** - depending on how far you had come down scafell before doing an additional rep to get it and catch back up!

PS on this note. I am convinced that swinging well left of the edge then contour back all on runnable grass, is way better than going down or just before Rakeshead unless you are a mountain goat that runs down screes such as that. What are views on that?

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

Useful to know Mark, thanks.
Out of curiosity , other than leg supports , how many "big days" (greater than say 6 hours) did you do in preparation for rounds?
Was that just one big day of 11 hours? Or did you do several?
PS - by that I meant 10 hours on route. Add 1.5 to and from rosthwaite to BG tops - so 11.5 total - which you beat.
,

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Hmmm, for the summer one I did the fellsman, the welsh 3000ers and 4 multi BGR leg days - all were over 10 hours. Plus many 4-8 hour days.

Might as well use this thread for other useful BG reccies that are not simply doing legs.

One worth considering is Keswick to Great Dodd and Back which is more or less Half way in time and naismith miles, with easy drop location at threlkeld to pick stuff up, and plenty of water en route - whilst the numbers don't lie, it seems surprising that it is true - it sounds shorter than it is.

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

Useful to know Mark, thanks.
Out of curiosity , other than leg supports , how many "big days" (greater than say 6 hours) did you do in preparation for rounds?
Was that just one big day of 11 hours? Or did you do several?
PS - by that I meant 10 hours on route. Add 1.5 to and from rosthwaite to BG tops - so 11.5 total - which you beat.
,

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For my Ramsay this year I did none. longest run was 6 hours in Feb

For me it wasn't worth doing the long runs as it would have resulted in too long of a recovery after, preferred to run most days and at a faster pace so on the actual round it felt a very relaxed pace.

Consistent training rather than big days out works better for me

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

All I can say is **wow** - depending on how far you had come down scafell before doing an additional rep to get it and catch back up!

PS on this note. I am convinced that swinging well left of the edge then contour back all on runnable grass, is way better than going down or just before Rakeshead unless you are a mountain goat that runs down screes such as that. What are views on that?

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It's pretty subjective. On the last two BG attempts that I supported (the past two weekends actually) both contenders did as you described and ran along the edge of Rakehead Crag before dropping down the grassy line in front of Green How (ie. the line most ACW contenders go). I think it's slightly longer, but if that's what you prefer, so be it .....

My own opinion is that there aren't many easier screes to come down than the one under Rakehead Crag, the shale is small and it's just a question of wading down until you hit the grass. I also like to aim for the corner of the wall rather than hopping over it and then take the steep grassy descent down to Lingmell Gill. Through the gill, over the tourist path and then onto the nose of Lingmell for a nice grassy descent down to Brackenclose, much easier than the gnarly tourist path. I'll admit there are drawbacks to this cunning plan - the first is that by going down the scree your shoes fill with all that brown shale, meaning a potential sock change and shoe-emptying moment, the second is that if Lingmell Gill is in spate it's going to be far from easy getting across. The wife and I found this out one day when the gill was really full of water and we got more than just wet feet.

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

Out of curiosity , other than leg supports , how many "big days" (greater than say 6 hours) did you do in preparation for rounds?

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This year aside from "normal" running in the hills, whatever that is, I've done two or three biggish days out in the Dales, half a dozen biggish days out in the Lakes including leg 4 support for Stef, the High Peak Marathon in the Peak, the Haworth Hobble in Bronte Country, the Fellsman in the Dales and a week long running/trogging of 140 miles of the north Cornwall coast path. I'll tell you if it was enough on Sunday afternoon :)

I've done all three descents. On my own round I went all the way left to the gill dropping down from Green How - I can't say I was quick as my quads were shot! I think I bum-slid quite a bit :-)
On a recce I went down the narrow gully about 200m before Green How. This is very rocky and might be OK in ascent but I don't think it's a suitable descent as it requires quite a bit of care.
Supporting a round we took the screes to the east of Rakehead Crag, the ones Martyn mentions, which has a slightly tricky top section (though nowhere near as bad as option #2) then good scree which unfortunately gives out way too early! I found the grassy bank lower down about as steep as that on option #1. Then cross the beck and follow the nose of Lingmell down, i.e. the finish of the Wasdale race.

In order of preference, I'd choose 1) the screes, 2) Green How, then a long way to 3) the central gully.

Good luck stolly!
Think you guys are brave.

I have supported a few ACW albeit some years ago, and I think it is tough.
My abiding memory is a lot of long uphill drags, followed by rough descents - gable , kirk, yewbarrow, scafell, hanging knotts, steel, fairfield.
Even such as seat sandal are not very nice in reverse. Although there are some good off path running lines going that way on a few such as red pike if you know where to find them. Good for mountain goats! As someone noted go left of the beck to come off sergeant man. I have run that way down a few times, and it is a soft easy descent.

Was most impressed that such as Mandy G chose to go that way and succeeded.

People seem mixed between those like Bill who never did more than 6 hours, and such as Mark S who did a lot of big days.
Seems to me there are two separate problems. One is getting physical condition, and I have no doubt baggins is right - that limiting long days allows you to train more overall and at higher intensity. But there is also belief. And to believe you can go four times longer than your longest run must be a mental battle. OK if you have done it a couple of times and "know" you can.

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Originally Posted by Bob

I've done all three descents. On my own round I went all the way left to the gill dropping down from Green How - I can't say I was quick as my quads were shot! I think I bum-slid quite a bit :-)
On a recce I went down the narrow gully about 200m before Green How. This is very rocky and might be OK in ascent but I don't think it's a suitable descent as it requires quite a bit of care.
Supporting a round we took the screes to the east of Rakehead Crag, the ones Martyn mentions, which has a slightly tricky top section (though nowhere near as bad as option #2) then good scree which unfortunately gives out way too early! I found the grassy bank lower down about as steep as that on option #1. Then cross the beck and follow the nose of Lingmell down, i.e. the finish of the Wasdale race.

In order of preference, I'd choose 1) the screes, 2) Green How, then a long way to 3) the central gully.

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Interesting Bob. Thanks. Very interesting. I guess I prefer steep grass, (spot the sedbergh race fan!) am certainly quicker than I am pussyfooting down RakesHead which I hate with a passion.

I like the sound of some of these routes. Might run a few for a 50 at 50 prep in many years time of course.

Need to get into the Welsh mountains for Paddy prep before that so any suggested circular recces would be good.

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Originally Posted by Cliveybaby

I like the sound of some of these routes. Might run a few for a 50 at 50 prep in many years time of course.

Need to get into the Welsh mountains for Paddy prep before that so any suggested circular recces would be good.

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Clive this is a bit of a hijack of a thread, but whilst on the Paddy subject a few I do to get a circuit or almost a circuit are:
1)Nant Gwynant to Moel Mirch then follow paddy route taking in Cnicht and following Cnicht descent there is a good path back to Gwynant with a little minor road at the end.
2) Llanberis to Snowdon. then Paddy Route all the way to Llanberis, up to Elidir, round to Y garn and drop from Llyn y Cwn into Nant Peris. Hitch or bus back to Llanberis.
3) Park in Beddgetlert and along river path to Nantmor. Follow paddy route over Hebog etc over to Snowdon and down to Moel Cryngorian. Then take Snowdon Ranger path down to road and hitch or bus back to Gelert.
4) A version of Peris Horseshoe but after Cryngorian take in FG and Moel Elio.

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Originally Posted by Martyn P

It's pretty subjective. On the last two BG attempts that I supported (the past two weekends actually) both contenders did as you described and ran along the edge of Rakehead Crag before dropping down the grassy line in front of Green How (ie. the line most ACW contenders go). I think it's slightly longer, but if that's what you prefer, so be it .....

My own opinion is that there aren't many easier screes to come down than the one under Rakehead Crag, the shale is small and it's just a question of wading down until you hit the grass. I also like to aim for the corner of the wall rather than hopping over it and then take the steep grassy descent down to Lingmell Gill. Through the gill, over the tourist path and then onto the nose of Lingmell for a nice grassy descent down to Brackenclose, much easier than the gnarly tourist path.

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I pretty much agree with all of that.
I have used both the the Rakehead Screes route that Martyn describes above and the Green How route and measured both by GPS and mapping software and get the Green How route that I usually take to be 0.1miles longer (0.96 miles against 0.86). I admit that the difference looks greater than this when viewed from Brackenclose.

Going the Green How way I usually drop off the well trod path just after Rakehead Crag and head in a diagonal line rightwards and down. This is a much gentler and easier descent than following the path to the top of the gill dropping down from Green How. When scree starts to appear at the top of the gully Bob describes as option #2 I keep just above this and follow grass all the way across to the gill, through it and pick up the path on the left hand side (looking down to wasdale). There is then only a short steep descent to a stile after which the angle eases and is grassy all the way down to the Corpse road just above the carpark, and is grassy running all the way from Rakehead. see pic attached

When navving leg3 I usually ask the aspirant BG'er around Scafell summit which way they prefer, and the last five I've navved for have all opted for the Green How route.
The most recent two (this year) were both complaining of very sore feet on the rocky stuff and scree either coming off Scafell or before and I'm sure they chose the best option for them. I'm convinced that for most aspirant BG'ers this way is faster albeit slightly longer.