So all you folk that voted leave,regretting it yet?
Be back in recession before you know it
Loads of racist attacks
No one in charge of the country
Immigration isn't going to get any less
My euros going to cost me more
What a mess, well done!!!
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So all you folk that voted leave,regretting it yet?
Be back in recession before you know it
Loads of racist attacks
No one in charge of the country
Immigration isn't going to get any less
My euros going to cost me more
What a mess, well done!!!
The majority of them now have nothing to say, because they know they naffed up, perfectly illustrated by all of the rats that lead them jumping ship :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
The Daily Telegraph has published a wry letter pondering how many people who voted for Brexit thought they were selecting Theresa May as Prime Minister. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
This what Gove has to say-
'We need to renegotiate a new relationship with the EU, based on free trade and friendly cooperation.' #Gove2016
...........Oh dear Michael. Perhaps some sort of union with Europe. More suggestions here
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...83dnfp1njkmx6r
William Hague in his, always sensible, column in today's TDT concludes that whichever way people voted: we're all leavers now.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrt
Unfortunately this laudable advice reminds me of the Slade song; "Mama Weer All Crazee Now".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPTk5poAa1c
Which on reflection...
Hague.
Your spelling of 'Weer', oddly, is accurate, but originally 'Crazy' was 'Crazee'.
On the substantive issue I concur: totally bonkers.
Many thanks. I am corrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tussockface
As for Slade: (obviously) that wasn't a record that would ever cross my threshold.:D
Of course not.
Returning to Brexit, I heard two old ladies discussing the future. One said "Now we're out of Europe, it's going to be like the good old days."
I'm still not certain what she had in mind: the Wall Street Crash, the Great Depression, or the Holocaust.
If they were really old perhaps the English Civil War, Black Death, or maybe being raped and pillaged by Vikings?
Or did the Vikings come from Europe?
No regrets here mate, thanks for asking though. The country voted and you suffered a resounding defeat, accept it. Despite the constant whining from the Remainers, we'll soon be on our way out of the EU, getting shot of Cameron was a bonus. I'd already got my euros so no probs there, might even get a few more quid back if we don't spend it all. Happy daysQuote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
Enough for the coming years as well? I'm impressed by your foresight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Head
I'm trying to come to terms with the fact I probably won't have a (NHS) dentist for the next xx years. Every single one for the last 10 years has been E.European and we are waiting for a replacement dentist now - some ruddy chance of one coming to the UK to start a career in the foreseeable future.
What a mess. What is the chance we will actually leave? 30%? And why if we do? What have we gained? My understanding is Control is a film about Joy Division
btw the Mail article the taxi driver posted a link to recently read like it was written by an 11 yet old. As I've said before God help us
I have just returned from 5 days in Berlin (at a gathering of my [very] extended family, who had travelled from various parts of Germany, the UK, Switzerland, Israel and the USA). Although there was actually very little discussion of Brexit, I got the general impression that Germans regard the Brexit vote with the same sort of incredulity that we regard Americans who vote for Trump; although the Americans in our gathering were certain that their nation's level of stupidity exceeded ours.
Germany is emphatically NOT using the EU as a means for German domination of Europe, as has been alleged in some quarters. They are very conscious of their history, and are absolutely determined to prevent anything like Nazism ever happening again; and they see the EU as an important means of ensuring continued peace and tolerance. They want to be responsible citizens of Europe and the world; hence Angela Merkel's (somewhat rash?) statement last year welcoming refugees to Germany.
As for freedom of movement: I was in Berlin, where a few sections of the Wall can still be seen; freedom of movement is a sensitive subject there. I think Donald Trump should visit Berlin.
What worries me most at the moment, however, is the disarray in Britain's politics. I had predicted that a vote for Brexit would lead to the Tories tearing themselves apart, but I hadn't realised that Labour would beat them to it. And there is a deafening silence from the Lib Dems (or does Tim Farron have a cunning plan which involves lying low for a while?). If this mess leads to no-one actually starting the Article 50 process, my big worry is that it might lead to a greatly increased vote for UKIP at the next general election.
Here you are Lux, just for you. https://youtu.be/-a6HNXtdvVQ
This may contain the best name I've ever heard....dickweasel. Pure genius!
Once all the handwringing is over, lets gather up our energy and put it to good use instead of dissipating it in negativity.
perhaps this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tussockface
No regrets at all. It's too early to be making any assessment of the impact. The above summarises for me what has been wrong about the remain side all along. Too much talking the country down and negativity about our prospects.Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
I don't regret my vote.
There's an alarming amount of anger and abuse from the Remainers. I'm not quite sure what this stems from as it's not just with the referendum. This trend of anger when on the wrong side of a ballot has been around since the 2010 general election when the Lib Dems formed the coalition with the Tories.
I think it's perhaps to do with social media.
People who used to be reluctant to put their opinion out there at all, will now quite happily share an insulting and often offensive post around facebook.
But I also think it's because the "elite" in politics and the media have been telling is what and how we should think, closing down debates on topics like immigration and making them no go areas.
So this anger is a public display that largely means nothing as still most people don't get involved.
Evidence of this would be the public anger at the coalition and then the ensuing result at the 2015 general election that few saw coming.
It is as if the majority are stepping back from showing what they really think for fear of the rent-a-mob jumping on them.
It was notable on Facebook prior to the referendum how people were unable to put their own thoughts down, but resorted to using links to articles, or shared jpegs to make a point.
It's almost football terrace style politics, with people taking a position based on a dyed in the wool loyalty, but not knowing why.
I'd attribute that to both sides. There were Remainers for no good reason and Leavers for no good reason.
But that is democracy and that has always been the case.
Parliament in the summer is always in recess. PMs have been criticised for not recalling Parliament during he summer recess when issues have arisen.
But the civil service runs the country, so there really isn't any need for concern.
When Parliament sits again, there will be a new PM and the process will start. Until then, the civil service, the embassy staff of the UK and our EU and RoW partners will be talking and drawing up scenarios that the politicians can consider.
So I see the summer as a little breathing space and time for reflection for those that will be guiding the process, allowing some of the heat to be taken out of the situation, on all sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
For me I just don't understand why people did it - I honestly don't
I haven't heard one good reason why it is a good idea and the whole notion that it will stop immigration is I think false
So for me it has destabilised the country and one of few people in power that seems to be straight (Mark Carney) agrees 100%
Also we have a load of politicians that led us into this and have no conveniently walked away leaving the country to rot.
Of course it wont stop immigration, no one said it would or should. But immigration is not the same thing as free movement. I think thats what people felt uncomfortable with.
The problem is that the euroblock is too diverse at the moment. The difference between Denmark, Romania and Portugal is too extreme.
I hope this might make the Grand Planners of the Euro experiment take stock and try a different tack.
For example, rather than plan for convergence between very different countries, why not plan for convergence between sensible blocs of countries.
e.g there could be a Northern Bloc, Southern and Eastern which, over time could be converged. EU convergence worked when it was 7 or 8 largely similar countries but the recent acquisitions has destabilized the whole thing. I think thats what the herd subconsciously felt.
You see there is the problemQuote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
You can’t provide one concrete positive but Mark Carney can provide one concrete negative
Ergo – Brexit is a bad plan!!!
It's a bit like the point I previously made. Most people are ill equipped to think for themselves so follow the side they are most comfortable with.Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
Interestingly he can only deal with events and has to be careful not to express an opinion.
Having voted Brexit, one measure he is considering is lowering interest rates and just by mentioning this it has an effect as the market factors this in.
Would he have considered increasing them if we had voted Remain? Would that have been viewed positive? Higher £ and great for holiday makers, great for importers, but not so great for exporters and mortgages.
As Wheeze said, stopping immigration was never ever promised. Gove and Johnson both many times extolled the benefits of immigration. What was said was that it was impossible to control the level of immigration while being in the EU. Instead the Leave campaign advocated an Australian style points system.Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
As for good reasons to leave, there were plenty made on the other Brexit thread. I'm not going to recite them all over again.
What are you talking about? Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove and Liam Fox have all stood for leadership of the Tory party and therefore to be Prime Minister. This is a strange kind of walking away. Boris Johnson was all set to stand until Gove sabotaged his bid.Quote:
Also we have a load of politicians that led us into this and have no conveniently walked away leaving the country to rot.
It was not my intention to provide you with a list of positives, just to have a calm discussion about how these things happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
But I am acutely aware that half of my kinfolk are up in arms. That needs to be managed.
Its also true that a referendum taken today would have a different outcome, no doubt about it.
Democracy is a powerful instrument and a referendum uniquely so.
As for me, if the vote had been for remain, I would not have felt any different. I would have accepted the expressed will of the people knowing that a subsequent vote would have showed a reverse....that's the nature of the beast.
"It was not my intention to provide you with a list of positives, just to have a calm discussion about how these things happen."
Perhaps you should provide a credible list of positives. Ones vouched for by none biased parties (foreign economic experts for example).
The SNP managed to create the White Paper. Why didn't leave create an equivalent?
I'll leave the credibility of the white paper for another discussion.
If I'm in Blackburn and want too go to Scarborough, I have options. Most likely I'd drive and go A59 but most would chose the M62.
Use an "expert" SATNAV and it will give you the M62.
If we all agreed we wanted to get to Scarborough from Blackburn, we may come up with many different options and some may not involve a car.
But some of us aren't in Blackburn and some of us don't want to get to Scarborough.
That's a way to sum up the whole debate about the EU and the UK.
Some of us think the UK is in an OK position, some thing it's in a poor position, some want to break up the UK, others want to retain the Union.
So our starting points are different.
In terms of where we want the UK to be in 25 years, we also have different opinions.
They are opinions, held for whatever reasons.
So how can it be that all those different options for the UK must involve a one size fits all EU?
We will never know whether to Leave is the best decision of the two choices we were given. Just like a career decision you made 20 years ago appears to have worked well, you never know that if you had chosen another option whether it would have worked out better or worse.
So just roll with it and make the best of it.
In terms of the SNP White Paper, The SNP has a party position - the Leave campaign was a group of individuals from different parties, businesses and organisations.
They all had their reasons, some overlapping and some different.
If there is any criticism on this it should be levelled at the Government.
The Government deemed that the referendum was a reasonable exercise to undertake. Cameron has indicated in the past that he said it was a close judgement and only when he had gone through his negotiation process earlier this year did he come down firmly in the Remain camp.
The Government should have set up a truly independent review setting out +/- case for Remain and for Leave and include the possible consequences.
Possibly a select committee review would have been sensible.
But Cameron rushed his negotiation.
He didn't get what he set out to get.
He was desperate (for some reason) to get the referendum in to 2016 rather than wait until 2017.
He could have waited and tried to negotiate further.
Alright.
Not my own work but culled from various sources.
Border control back in our hands
Membership fee saving
Preservation of democracy and sovereignty
Opening up of global markets
Take full advantage of position as 5th largest global economy
Preservation of military freedom
Reduction of restrictive legislation on business
Self determination of legal and financial management
Reduction of internal security risks.
I literally asked for the benefits to be backed up by credible opinions.
And what I get in return is some pish about the best way to the sea side!
Being a disparate group is no excuse for not having a vision and strategy. I have one for my job, and I'd eventually be sacked if I operated without any idea of how to achieve my goals.
If anything Leave should have a confusing array of strategies.
Wheeze, it's a nice list. But it's just a wish list. Show me the road map!? And I don't believe the membership thing will be much of a saving in the end, either through market access costs or tariffs.
The road map to the seaside?:DQuote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
Why does he need to prove anything anyway? If the government don't produce, they get voted out. That's the new level of democracy we now have. No one else to blame now.
In response to Wheeze's assertions:
Alright.
Not my own work but culled from various sources.
Border control back in our hands I get this, but I don't think it will help. Incidentally immigration is higher from non-EU countries currently!
Membership fee saving I get this, but think this will be more than off-set by economic losses and lost tax income as a result of leave.
Preservation of democracy and sovereignty I get this and agree.
Opening up of global markets Good luck with that.
Take full advantage of position as 5th largest global economy Ditto
Preservation of military freedom I get this, but don't agree we didn't have it anyway.
Reduction of restrictive legislation on business I get this. However, from my perspective the EU was the workers friend and a helpful counter to the excesses of less progressive UK governments
Self determination of legal and financial management From what I understand, legal is a separate issue, not directly related to our membership of the EU. I agree our financial markets could be unshackled by less restrictive UK governance. I'm not sure if this would be a good thing.
Reduction of internal security risks. I get this and agree.
Slightly off topic, here are some thoughts on Brexit and the impact on the outdoors from the BMC. Makes interesting reading whatever side you are on, though I cannot see a lot of positives.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/brexit-eu-r...-natural-world
Has anything changed in anyone's day to day life.
Unless your a political activist.
Accept democracy
Did I not see on the news yesterday that the British and German stock markets are looking to merge, and create the largest stock exchange in the world? Was voted in on our side, and the German financial powers-that-be are voting shortly...
My view has always been that countries will trade with the U.K. whether or not we are in the EU. Our economy is (currently) too big to just ignore.
For the record, I did not vote either way, as like Stagger posted above, I don't think it will have a massive effect either way on either the economy, or the day-to-day lives of most.
The company I work for does a lot of work in the construction industry in 'The City', and yes a number of potential projects have been put on hold, but the consensus seems to be that it is a case of waiting for the dust to settle, rather than pulling the plug on investment.
You're only taking out what you want to. Misrepresenting Mark Carney's views to suit your own agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
Mark Carney was questioned by the select committee and he cited the consequences of both leaving and staying in the European union. At the time the 'prophets of doom' jumped on just his leave comments because it suited their agenda.
Now then why don't you tell us about what you think of Mervyn King's comments?
I was hoping a vote out would stop Graham B and Derby Tup sniping but if anything they sound even more bitter - if less cockey - than they did before the vote.
Chaps you had the opportunity to put arguments across beforehand and you couldn't or didn't. So cut the sniping.
I disagree with your contention that there isn't a plan. The plan is to exit the EU with a mutually beneficial trade deal. The idea that those wanting to leave should be able to specify this deal down to the last nut and bolt is not realistic. We do not know what the negotiating position of the EU will be and until we do we can't react accordingly. But what can be said is that there are various options open to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
What's for certain is that it is not in the interests of the EU to not have a trade deal when they export so much more to us than vice versa and when much of the eurozone is so precarious economically. E.g the state of the Italian banking system. Even in the absolute worst case scenario of relying on WTO membership, the tariff on most goods and services is relatively small - certainly less than the value that the Pound has already dropped, which increases British competitiveness.
Wheeze's list is much more than a wish list. For example take making our own trade deals. A number of countries that have no deal with the EU have already been making favourable noises in this direction.
We can add to the list coming out of the Common Fisheries Policy and coming out of the Common Agricultural Policy. With the latter, not only will we be able to buy food more cheaply from the rest of the world we can also feel good about ourselves that we are no longer discriminating against third world farmers.
In response to Noel's response to Wheeze :)
Border control back in our hands I get this, but I don't think it will help. Incidentally immigration is higher from non-EU countries currently!
The key is control. The current Government and the previous coalition didn't manage the non-EU element properly.
All future Governments will now have the option to manage immigration properly. They will be able to go to the electorate with an immigration policy. They will be able to adjust to the demands of our economy.
They will not be able to use the free movement as an excuse.
Membership fee saving I get this, but think this will be more than off-set by economic losses and lost tax income as a result of leave.
It may be lost in the whole budget, but it is important to note that now we will have more control. I actually think the payments to the EU were one of the minor distractions as in the scheme of things its the equivalent of an average household cancelling a pint of milk a day.
Preservation of democracy and sovereignty I get this and agree.
I'd actually say we are reclaiming democracy and sovereignty that we have previously ceded to the EU.
Opening up of global markets Good luck with that.
This is one of the key points in my mind.
The EU has negotiated very few trade deals of any note. They refer to 53 that are in place. Only around half of them are "free trade" deals.
These existing 53 deals list Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Andorra, Faroe Islands, Sam Marino....so they are over-egging the pudding a little.
South Korea is the most notable and is the 11th biggest economy in the world.
Not only is the EU poor at negotiating trade deals, but it also has a tendency to focus on areas of trade that are more favourable to the continent.
So having the freedom to negotiate on our own means we can make deals that suit us and our economy.
Noel - you say good luck with that, but we already have had approaches from several countries and assuming we go through the Brexit process by end 2018, we will already have worked out some trade deals ready for when we come out.
Take full advantage of position as 5th largest global economy Ditto
People want to trade with us. South American countries find it very difficult at the moment as do many of our Commonwealth colleagues.
I actually think opening up trade links with some of these countries will be more effective than our overseas aid budget.
Preservation of military freedom I get this, but don't agree we didn't have it anyway.
It was at risk. I watched a Romano Prodi interview the Friday after the referendum. He said it was a shame to lose the strongest armed force in the EU just as they were going to establish the EU defence force.
Only UK, Greece, Estonia and Poland of the EU nations in NATO, meet their 2% of GDP spend.
If they do set up an EU defence force, they will undoubtedly double count the spending and this will chip away at the standing of NATO.
The US accounts for about 75% of NATO spending and we keep being told about how the EU is now bigger than the USA in terms of GDP, so this is just unacceptable.
The EU nations need to pull their weight and they should do this within NATO.
I have to add though, that our armed forces have been run down. The discussion today around Chilcot makes it clear that we went in to Iraq with an under-resourced armed force.
Having an armed force can be put to a lot of positive benefit such as we saw with the Ebola outbreak and the Tsunami response a few years ago.
I would like to see our Navy in particular expanded and playing the role of humanitarian support as well as important logistical armed backup and used as a force for good around the world.
Reduction of restrictive legislation on business I get this. However, from my perspective the EU was the workers friend and a helpful counter to the excesses of less progressive UK governments
I'm not sure what you mean Noel - the workers friend?
Since we joined the EU I have seen:
A watering down of the guaranteed payments system for workers on short-term lay-off.
An increase in part-time working and zero hours contracts.
A decrease in the premium rates paid for working unsociable hours.
An increase in weekend and unsociable hours working.
A more difficult regime for workers to challenge employers.
In many countries in the EU, unemployment is extremely high and the Euro is stifling the ability of any nation to devalue out of the problem, forcing extreme austerity on the countries, whilst many in Northern Europe thrive with a Euro that should be higher for them.
In terms of legislation, simple things such as an EC Sales List that I as a one man band have to fill in for every sale I make to an EU VAT registered business. It is actually more onerous for me to sell to an Italian company than a Malaysian one.
We go above and beyond EU legislation.
Self determination of legal and financial management From what I understand, legal is a separate issue, not directly related to our membership of the EU. I agree our financial markets could be unshackled by less restrictive UK governance. I'm not sure if this would be a good thing.
It's not so much less restrictive Noel, but it is legislation that works within our legal system. Our common law system works differently to the European civil law systems.
One of the main reasons put forward for the UK attracting investment in to the EU has been the legal system as the Commonwealth and the USA are almost all based on the same legal system and they have a distinct mistrust of the European systems.
Reduction of internal security risks. I get this and agree
I agree, but think it is marginal.
One of the hopes for me of coming out of the union was a reversal of the influence of the 'progressive Liberals' in our everyday life. The 2015 general election saw them almost finished as a political party but their power and hopes continued with the European Union. Now that has gone their only hope is to exist as aliens in other parties, diluting the essence of what those parties once stood for.
Yes the damage done to the moral fibre of the country by the Liberals in incalculable. Their progressive policies have rewarded the feckless and punished the virtuous. They have no concept of justice, right or wrong, all they pander to is the beneficiaries of their policies without any consideration for the victims.
So I now hope that this is the start of something better, but with the Liberals still prowling around and corrupting our political and social life who knows.
That's not a plan, it's a goal.Quote:
The plan is to exit the EU with a mutually beneficial trade deal.
Not on a Joe Public individual basis. But I've yet to see anything resembling strategy and tactics about how to achieve the stated goal from those at the leading edge. Even taking into account the need to keep cards close to the chest before negotiations begin.Quote:
The idea that those wanting to leave should be able to specify this deal down to the last nut and bolt is not realistic
It still a wish list if there's no plan being implemented to achieve it.Quote:
Wheeze's list is much more than a wish list. For example take making our own trade deals. A number of countries that have no deal with the EU have already been making favourable noises in this direction.
I think it was South Korea first through the door?!
Now this could be a good thing, I won't hold my breath for the UK giving them a good deal.Quote:
Common Agricultural Policy. With the latter, not only will we be able to buy food more cheaply from the rest of the world we can also feel good about ourselves that we are no longer discriminating against third world farmers.
You don't set people free by enslaving them to the stateQuote:
Yes the damage done to the moral fibre of the country by the Liberals in incalculable. Their progressive policies have rewarded the feckless and punished the virtuous. They have no concept of justice, right or wrong, all they pander to is the beneficiaries of their policies without any consideration for the victims.