At what point...?

...can you consider yourself an 'experienced fell runner'....?

Any serious, or non serious replies welcomed

I've been running on the fells for coming up to two years now. Probably done 30-35 races, well over 20 of them will be either 'A longs' or if not, considered as tough routes like Haworth Hobble, Long Mynd Valleys, Roaches, etc. Done a good sprinkling of Lakeland classics, and most of the big Welsh races, and some longer distance ultra stuff.

To a newcomer I'd probably look like a fountain of experience. But no way... There's people on this forum who regularly knock that many races out in a single year.

So how many races would you want under your belt before you consider yourself experienced? Or indeed, how many non-finishes, near misses, catastrophic navigation errors? Or is it all in your mind and ability to take care of yourself (I've come across far better athletes than me who I would shudder st the thought of them being lost on a bad day at one of the big races)...

Pete

When you have done some Bofra races��

And when you've been last

Lost, or DNF

Marshaled

Taken part in a relay

Ran Langdale after a sesh in the ODG the night before

I can attest to running Langdale with a hangover, desperately trying to get my head together with a can of Red Bull at 10-55am, then sweating it all out on the first climb, with the sense of impending doom over what is about to unfold in the next few hours!

when you're battling the elements and are fine and moving well, but realise that just a trip/stumble, whilst not immediately dangerous, can quickly become so.

When you've trashed at less 4 pairs of mudclaws...!

Are we talking Fell runner or Fell racer ? because the 2 are very different IMO.

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Originally Posted by JohnK

Are we talking Fell runner or Fell racer ? because the 2 are very different IMO.

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I'd agree with that. Two different beasts entirely .... though I have to say there is bound to be a bit of blurring between the two. I like to think of myself as a fellrunner (others may disagree), but I occasionally celebrate this fact by doing a fell race :)

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Originally Posted by Martyn P

I'd agree with that. Two different beasts entirely .... though I have to say there is bound to be a bit of blurring between the two. I like to think of myself as a fellrunner (others may disagree), but I occasionally celebrate this fact by doing a fell race :)

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Very much so. I had two years of running and racing on the fells, with performances better than I ever expected, before contracting exercise induced asthma in 1985.
I went on to complete the Lakes 3000's at a very sedentary pace and continued to be at the tail end of the odd race; but I never really felt that I'd 'come of age' until I completed a solo, unsupported Scottish Coast to Coast at a walk/jog pace in the summer of 2000. This was inspired by the exploits of Ian Leighton and Robin Price as reported in various edition of the FRM in the mid-80's. Sadly, I took 9 days against their 4.5 and I didn't bag half as many Munroes.

Ian Roberts, Bowland F.R.

I reckon anyone who can get around one of the 'big beast' races like Peris or Borrowdale can consider themselves 'experienced and/or certifiable' !!

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

I reckon anyone who can get around one of the 'big beast' races like Peris or Borrowdale can consider themselves 'experienced and/or certifiable' !!

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Peris makes Borrowdale look like a park run :p

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Originally Posted by wjb

Ran Langdale after a sesh in the ODG the night before

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Well I've done the Langdale road marathon after a sesh in the ODG...not too pleasant it has to be said; I did the OCT last year after one too many in the ODG...but luckily not enough too unpleasant!!

I think 'experience' is reflected by confidence out in the hills. A well-earned confidence, not arrogance, but confidence which comes from spending time in the hills, learning about them, respecting them, and knowing you have developed the skills to look after yourself in all conditions, even (especially) if that means bailing out when you recognise you've reached your limits on a given day. When you have that, regardless of what events you may or may not have done, then you're experienced.

Getting out plenty doesn't necessarily reflect 'competent' or 'capable', in all aspects of fell running just as getting round the toughest fell routes might only qualify you as 'fit' rather than anything more. Looks how many supposedly 'experienced' fell runners get lost every year when the mist blows in!

Obviously everyone has an accident, or goes off-track at some point, even the very best, but it's what happens then that determines the level of your experience and competence.

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Originally Posted by ChevinbyTorchlight

I think 'experience' is reflected by confidence out in the hills. A well-earned confidence, not arrogance, but confidence which comes from spending time in the hills, learning about them, respecting them, and knowing you have developed the skills to look after yourself in all conditions, even (especially) if that means bailing out when you recognise you've reached your limits on a given day. When you have that, regardless of what events you may or may not have done, then you're experienced.

Getting out plenty doesn't necessarily reflect 'competent' or 'capable', in all aspects of fell running just as getting round the toughest fell routes might only qualify you as 'fit' rather than anything more. Looks how many supposedly 'experienced' fell runners get lost every year when the mist blows in!

Obviously everyone has an accident, or goes off-track at some point, even the very best, but it's what happens then that determines the level of your experience and competence.

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Spot on C-b-T, particularly that last line.

Hmmm but experienced at what kind of fells, at what time of day, in which weather conditions...

By the definition of the word, after you have been fell running for one afternoon you have *experienced* fell running. After that it is into "degrees of experience".

If you have been fell running/racing for 2 years I think you could call yourself an experienced fell runner, as by definition, you have experienced it consistently for over two years. What does that mean though and why do you want to know? If it is for bragging rights with your urban office dwelling colleagues then definitely, you are a hardy experienced fell runner. :) If you are considering tackling a route or race that is advertised as "requiring experience", then I would always ask myself each time (and maybe each time when taking on a new route) "okay what *specific* experience does this route need". Is it scrambling on a ridge, or solo navigating a expanse of high fell? If you're confident in your experience in doing that great, if you're not then find a buddy and do a bit of gaining experience (which is always fun).

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Originally Posted by dantodman

Peris makes Borrowdale look like a park run :p

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Agree... I think getting round something like Borrowdale or Langdale in good conditions on a champs day, although requiring a massive amount of fitness (as my legs on the way down from Dale Head will testify), but not necessarily the skills to keep you safe, at a more remote race with no train of people to follow.

Failure and learning from mistakes also forms a big part in my opinion. I personally learnt a great deal more about myself and my abilities in the couple of hours I spent awol between Seatallan and Pillar last year at Wasdale before getting timed out, than I did at a host of other races which I completed with a spring in my step.

Got to agree with the above regarding the comparison of Borrowdale and Peris though. There's absolutely no doubt that Borrowdale on a bad day is as tough and dangerous as anything, but there should arguably be another category above 'AL' for the likes of Wasdale/Peris/Buttermere/insert as applicable..... And I'd arguably add Welsh 1000m to that list as well.

Your as experienced as you feel comfortable.

Long runs on champs days are just long procession's

Most can't read a map or compass. Yes they are very fit but only to follow.

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Originally Posted by Travs

...........but there should arguably be another category above 'AL' for the likes of Wasdale/Peris/Buttermere/insert as applicable.....

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Super long?
I think that's what they used to be known as.

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Originally Posted by mapper

Super long?
I think that's what they used to be known as.

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And still are: LCT page 45 FRA Calendar, Super Long was first categorized by Brian Martin (then FRA Statistician) when he and I devised the LCT for 2002.

Use of the expression Super Long in any other context than the LCT is strictly prohibited and miscreants will be prosecuted to the fullest extent that the law allows .:)

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

And still are: LCT page 45 FRA Calendar, Super Long was first categorized by Brian Martin (then FRA Statistician) when he and I devised the LCT for 2002.

Use of the expression Super Long in any other context than the LCT is strictly prohibited and miscreants will be prosecuted to the fullest extent that the law allows .:)

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Thats why I was a little careful how I put it. Didn't want to rock the boat.
Thanks for the confirmation Mr B :)

Thank goodness nobody came up with 'Ultra' in their definition......so far!

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Originally Posted by Mossdog

When you've trashed at less 4 pairs of mudclaws...!

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if you can remember when there were no innov8, just Walsh, and they were made with leather.

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

and miscreants will be prosecuted to the fullest extent that the law allows .:)

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i.e not at all. 😃

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Originally Posted by andy k

if you can remember when there were no innov8, just Walsh, and they were made with leather.

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At last: a definition under which I qualify.

When you bring along someone who is much faster than you on the road, run averagely on a fairly easy one and they limp in a long time after you declaring that it is the hardest thing they have done.

Thats cruel Dom! But true!!

[QUOTE=Travs;631592]...can you consider yourself an 'experienced fell runner'....?




When you're a Vicar and you email Wynn Cliff to find out the date of the Anniversary Waltz before agreeing to conduct a wedding on a Saturday in April.

[QUOTE=Rev Richard;632241]

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Originally Posted by Travs

...can you consider yourself an 'experienced fell runner'....?




When you're a Vicar and you email Wynn Cliff to find out the date of the Anniversary Waltz before agreeing to conduct a wedding on a Saturday in April.

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Psalm 121 seems appropriate here!

[QUOTE=johnmc;632248]

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Originally Posted by Rev Richard

Psalm 121 seems appropriate here!

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This one? Attachment 8658

I rarely call myself a fell runner tbh. First and foremost, I guess, I'm a runner and walker and occasional cyclist. If I'm running out in the fells or 'wilds' on a regular basis, and in all weathers/conditions I'm happy to but otherwise I slip into saying I'm generally a trail or off-road runner. Being a full on fellrunner is, to me, a very specific thing on the one hand but wide ranging on the other. Possibly someone already alluded to this in the runner/racer aspect. Also I have massive respect for genuine, proper fell runners that I get embarrassed slightly to put myself into that catagory.

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Originally Posted by Travs

I've been running on the fells for coming up to two years now. Probably done 30-35 races, well over 20 of them will be either 'A longs' or if not, considered as tough routes like Haworth Hobble, Long Mynd Valleys, Roaches, etc.

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If race tally is a factor then those living in or near the Lakes are at a tremendous advantage. My first race was the Pentland Skyline in 2010 and you've comfortably done more races than me since then. That's partly inclination, but if I wanted to race once a fortnight I'd be putting serious mileage on the car.

I think there needs to be some consideration of quality as well as quantity. Loads of fair weather racing where there are plenty people to follow, plus a BG with a full cohort of pacers, navigators and road crew is likely to teach you less than a day out alone in winter getting the crap kicked out of you by the weather. That probably speaks to the multifaceted nature of the sport, I'd think of an experienced runner as having breadth as well as depth of experience.

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Originally Posted by Ally

If race tally is a factor then those living in or near the Lakes are at a tremendous advantage. My first race was the Pentland Skyline in 2010 and you've comfortably done more races than me since then. That's partly inclination, but if I wanted to race once a fortnight I'd be putting serious mileage on the car.

I think there needs to be some consideration of quality as well as quantity. Loads of fair weather racing where there are plenty people to follow, plus a BG with a full cohort of pacers, navigators and road crew is likely to teach you less than a day out alone in winter getting the crap kicked out of you by the weather. That probably speaks to the multifaceted nature of the sport, I'd think of an experienced runner as having breadth as well as depth of experience.

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Ally I'm in a similar situation to yourself. Any race in the Lakes, Scotland, Snowdonia, Yorkshire, generally entails at least a night away. Two nights if I can't face the thought of driving back after racing the same day. If it's in the Peaks, Shropshire or mid/South Wales then generally doable in a day.