Getting experience

Hello
I have run fell races on holiday in France, winning the youth category in races such as Monte de l'Aubisque, Col de la Madeleine and coming 3rd in a similar night time fell race around the Col d'Ispeguy. I've also competed in the IoW fell races in the past 3 years and enjoyed and done well in them. I am fit, and a capable road and cross country runner too. I have been on my own hiking holidays too, using maps to navigate and I am confident in this.
I would like to enter more fell races this summer, such as in the AS and AM category however a lot of them say I need experience of these races. How am I meant to get experience of these races if I can't enter them?

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Originally Posted by matthieu

Hello
I have run fell races on holiday in France, winning the youth category in races such as Monte de l'Aubisque, Col de la Madeleine and coming 3rd in a similar night time fell race around the Col d'Ispeguy. I've also competed in the IoW fell races in the past 3 years and enjoyed and done well in them. I am fit, and a capable road and cross country runner too. I have been on my own hiking holidays too, using maps to navigate and I am confident in this.
I would like to enter more fell races this summer, such as in the AS and AM category however a lot of them say I need experience of these races. How am I meant to get experience of these races if I can't enter them?

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ER is a recommendation that you are an experienced off-road runner which by the sounds of it, you already are. I would have thought you would be fine with most AS/BM races especially if you recce the course first. Of course, it wouldn't hurt to contact the RO. ALs and AMs may be a different story and I would recommend getting some shorter races under your belt first before entering any of those.

Thanks, I guess I'll have a go at entering some shorter races and see what happens. Good day.

Interesting; what does ER actually mean, for all practical purposes? How to show experience, when you have no specific experience? Everyone must have had a 'first' AL.

This is how I've viewed it, as a slower runner but competent navigator. I've now completed AL races and the OMM(I'm not an RO for fell races, this is entirely my experienceof working my way up):

It probably comes down to two things - from the RO's point of view -
- will you be safe during the event?
(experience of the hills, weather, terrain, time on your feet, including experience with your kit, yourself and your stamina) Critically, do you know what to do when visibility is poor?
- will you finish in a reasonable time?
(as we all know off-road miles take a LOT longer than road miles; nutrition, hydration and hypothermia all become factors)

At the end of the day, you have to be honest with yourself.
Sincerity and explanation of your training, conquests and recce will satisfy most RO's. Particularly if you can show the 'SMJ' (= sound mountain judgement) of knowing where the escape routes are around any particular course, and a FULL kitbag of all the FRA required kit and more, for the event.
RO's will tolerate a newbie with a sincere attitude and a full kitbag, they won't tolerate a naive weekend warrior 'having a go' in road trainers and no kit because they once did a mud run in Surrey.

Show that you won't be on their radar, even if you finish in the last 10%(look at last years results and compare with your recce pace).
If you think you might struggle to demonstrate you could finish in the last 2%, the race is not for you, at the moment.

For the 'L'(and some 'M') category races the game does change, as the field is spread out; navigation becomes an issue; and knowing your weaknesses(fuel, cold, mental strength) as 'time on your feet' increases becomes important.

Proving that you can do 'time on your feet' to yourself and any RO is easier when doing navigationally-light trail races, especially around/ over half-marathon distance. Generally fell race organisers are not impressed by on-road race times unless you are one of the Brownlee brothers.
Proving you can navigate is easier to do safely if you can get to any of the mini-mountain marathon type events(eg the Kong series this year) or entering orienteering events, or have attended a recognised course.

I have had a lot of really good advice on these forums, about routes, hydration choices and pacing. Your presence here will be noted, especially if discussing a particular race in advance. You may even get the offer of a joint recce.

These thoughts are my own entirely and I am happy to be advised if I am off in any way.

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Originally Posted by drmorris

Interesting; what does ER actually mean, for all practical purposes? How to show experience, when you have no specific experience? Everyone must have had a 'first' AL.

This is how I've viewed it, as a slower runner but competent navigator. I've now completed AL races and the OMM(I'm not an RO for fell races, this is entirely my experienceof working my way up):

It probably comes down to two things - from the RO's point of view -
- will you be safe during the event?
(experience of the hills, weather, terrain, time on your feet, including experience with your kit, yourself and your stamina) Critically, do you know what to do when visibility is poor?
- will you finish in a reasonable time?
(as we all know off-road miles take a LOT longer than road miles; nutrition, hydration and hypothermia all become factors)

At the end of the day, you have to be honest with yourself.
Sincerity and explanation of your training, conquests and recce will satisfy most RO's. Particularly if you can show the 'SMJ' (= sound mountain judgement) of knowing where the escape routes are around any particular course, and a FULL kitbag of all the FRA required kit and more, for the event.
RO's will tolerate a newbie with a sincere attitude and a full kitbag, they won't tolerate a naive weekend warrior 'having a go' in road trainers and no kit because they once did a mud run in Surrey.

Show that you won't be on their radar, even if you finish in the last 10%(look at last years results and compare with your recce pace).
If you think you might struggle to demonstrate you could finish in the last 2%, the race is not for you, at the moment.

For the 'L'(and some 'M') category races the game does change, as the field is spread out; navigation becomes an issue; and knowing your weaknesses(fuel, cold, mental strength) as 'time on your feet' increases becomes important.

Proving that you can do 'time on your feet' to yourself and any RO is easier when doing navigationally-light trail races, especially around/ over half-marathon distance. Generally fell race organisers are not impressed by on-road race times unless you are one of the Brownlee brothers.
Proving you can navigate is easier to do safely if you can get to any of the mini-mountain marathon type events(eg the Kong series this year) or entering orienteering events, or have attended a recognised course.

I have had a lot of really good advice on these forums, about routes, hydration choices and pacing. Your presence here will be noted, especially if discussing a particular race in advance. You may even get the offer of a joint recce.

These thoughts are my own entirely and I am happy to be advised if I am off in any way.

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'ER' (experience required) usually means nothing when it comes to allowing you to enter. Most races don't check for experience, even Ennerdale and Wasdale. Three Peaks and Edale ask for details of experience when entering but not many other races do.

Theoretically you could turn up to Ennerdale or Wasdale having never set foot on the fells as long as you have full kit. My first Ennerdale race in 2012 was the first time I had ever ran in the Lake District! Although I did have (some) experience of walking on the Lakeland fells. Great Lakes 2012 was my second Lake District race!

'ER' usually means that experience will be required to get you round the course rather than allowing you to enter.

Hope this helps OP.

Talk about in at the deep end!! :-) ^^

I have always wanted to run The Three Peaks Race. Annoying I didn't have the experience, so couldn't they couldn't accept my entry - I'm one race from being able to entering the UTMB ballot, I think it's my nav experience that let me down. I have a few 8 Ultras under my belt - just annoying I do not have enough Fell experience.

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Originally Posted by granty

Talk about in at the deep end!! :-) ^^

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If you are referring to Great Lakes 2012 then yes it was literally in at the deep end! Nearly got swept away in a river!

You've got roughly 52 weeks to get some suitable experience for the 2018 Three Peaks Race then!

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Originally Posted by rileforce

I have always wanted to run The Three Peaks Race. Annoying I didn't have the experience, so couldn't they couldn't accept my entry - I'm one race from being able to entering the UTMB ballot, I think it's my nav experience that let me down. I have a few 8 Ultras under my belt - just annoying I do not have enough Fell experience.

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Originally Posted by rileforce

I have always wanted to run The Three Peaks Race. Annoying I didn't have the experience, so couldn't they couldn't accept my entry - I'm one race from being able to entering the UTMB ballot, I think it's my nav experience that let me down. I have a few 8 Ultras under my belt - just annoying I do not have enough Fell experience.

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Did you tell the Three Peaks organisers about your ultra experience? The 3ps website says if you don't meet the entry requirements you can submit details of other endurance running experience. They don't ask for details of navigation experience.

As Ben says you've got a year to get your two qualifying races in for the 2018 3 peaks.

WJB, I did follow it up...but still did not meet the requirements.

Oh well... 2018 see you there! [he says ironing his short Alan Partridge style shorts in readiness] :)

That's a shame it sounds like you are more than experienced enough for the Three Peaks but it wasn't meant to be this time.

There are plenty of AL and AM events through the summer in the Lakes that don't ask for details of experience so as long as you are confident you can get round you could use these as qualifiers for next year's 3ps. Tour of Pendle in November is also a good one to use as a qualifying event.

Good luck!

Great advice...I'll have a look at the old handbook.

Dont take it personally. Three peaks is oversubscribed so any slight issue will put you out of the running. At less subscribed races, you should be OK.
But its a great point. We should all confess how we 'broke our duck' with our first 'illegal' AL.
Here's mine. It would have been the 1988 Welsh 1000 metres. Just entered and winged it. Looking back I was woefully equipped with a pair of puma road shoes that I had resoled with cross country studs and a two piece rainsuit from Marks and Sparks. Worse than that, my warm leggings were a pair of cotton tracksters that, when wet, literally slipped down my legs in a heavy soggy mass. Worse than useless! But I could navigate OK. And I was young, fit and confident in an Alf Tupperish way. We had no money so it was make do and mend!

My first "Illegal" AL was Black Mountains in Wales, although they didn't ask for experience. I'm eternally thankful that it was clear weather, as it is a course which could be very serious in poor weather.

I had read and digested the dire warnings to research the route through the forest, and got there early and reccied the final couple of miles back to Llanbedr. Unfortunately I went astray on the very first long ridge, when I looked down into the valley, most of the race was taking place about 200 metres below to my right, resulting in a sharp descent to be back on track.

But what really hit me on my first AL was that there are very few easy climbs. Even the first climb, which looks on the map to be a bit of a stroll, was quite punishing, and the succession of hard climbs which followed were brutal.

Like Travs, my first AL was in Wheeze-land (SE Wales): Llanbedr-Blaenavon. Unlike Travs, the weather conditions were among the worst I have encountered in a fell race. I dressed no differently from if I had been going for a ramble in the same conditions, but managed to get round despite the weight of clothing.

I don't think there was anything "illegal" about it. Even if they had asked about previous experience, I could have mentioned several long-distance orienteering events that I had done, as well as two completions of the Kentmere Horseshoe (which is towards the long end of AM).

Two weeks after that first AL, I did Edale Skyline, and suffered far more despite the better weather.

Some great reads :) I have hiked the Three Peaks twice before so I know the route pretty well. One of those days was when the 3 Peaks race was on! Which is why I'm so passionate about doing it. Forget the London Marathon, give me views and a hard slog.

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Originally Posted by rileforce

Some great reads :) I have hiked the Three Peaks twice before so I know the route pretty well. One of those days was when the 3 Peaks race was on! Which is why I'm so passionate about doing it. Forget the London Marathon, give me views and a hard slog.

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Whatever anyone says about the route changes the Three Peaks is still a special race. I only started running because I hiked the Three Peaks and then someone told me about the fell race and I wanted to do it. Started racing in September 2011, did a BL and an AL to qualify and in April 2012 I ran in the Three Peaks race! Done it 4 times now and hope to be back next year racing against rileforce!

wjb > Brilliant! :-)

I think my first 'proper' fell race may have been Langdale HS!? Experience being North York Moors Mid Week Series and Gisborough Moors Race. I was overdressed on the day...Ron Hills and a Buffalo Shirt, though the weather wasn't great. I was amazed guys were setting off in vest and shorts!? I over-heated a little bit. That must have been '89/'90 or something!? Then I did 'Cafod' Grisedale and the Helvellyn off basically the same sort of running experience.

My first event called a fell race was Box Hill in Surrey (!) basically a 7m hilly cross country and virtually zero chance of getting lost but a fair test in its way. First proper fell race was Ras Y Aran in Wales, an up-and-back so again nav very easy. I have lots of walking experience in the hills and quickly pushed myself into events with navigation challenges and no single path, so classic fell stuff. I remember the 'ER' issue but you just have to start lower down the difficulty ladder and (except races requiring evidence of specific experience) you progress as you feel able

So, Matthieu, how have you got over the summer?