Kit conundrum

Firstly, I apologise if this has already been done to death, but it's something that has been frustrating me for a while.
FRA kit requirement. You'd think it was so simple, after all, there's a download on the site which is pretty in depth. Why then, does it cause such confusion, not just with runners, but seemingly RO's?!
My understanding - and correct me if I'm wrong...
MANDATORY (must be, has to be, got to be) kit applies to all AL, AM, BL races.
BEST PRACTICE (advised, good idea to, not mandatory) kit applies to other categories.
RO MAY (can if they want) enforce other kit rules at their discretion.

So. The last two races I have done. Hope Winter - category BM. Wolf's Pit - category AS.
From the FRA rules, I would have guessed that you could carry kit, but that it would not be compulsory? However...
Hope Winter - On the website for this race, the RO declares that 'full body cover (taped seemed waterproofs, hat and gloves) will need to be either carried or worn'. If this were a RO decision, then I've no issue, but it was stated that this was to comply with FRA rules? Surely the 'rule' doesn't apply to this race as it is category BM?
Wolf's Pit - On the website/Facebook page etc, there is no mention of kit requirements. However, before the start, a kit check was announced. If the RO hasn't previously declared a kit requirement, surely there isn't one? What happens if anyone is found not to be carrying kit? This is a category AS.

Put everything you’re ever likely to need in your car (even full kit ain’t a lot is it?). Go to the race start and pack you bumbag when you’ve confirmed what’s needed (and considered if you need extra for your own peace of mind). Don’t forget to thank any marshals you pass and the organiser before you go home. Fellrunning - the simplest sport ever?

I've carried full kit in both races - I'm a mid-field runner with dodgy limbs, so it makes sense to me on a personal level. The merit of kit isn't the issue though - the issue is why the 'rules' seem to be open to interpretation, and what happens if you contravene them?

When you go to a race where kit is not necessarily mandatory in all conditions (i.e AS, BM, etc)

But you see a sign, or are told "FRA kit regulations"

The decision has (as stated in the rules) still been made by the race organiser... It's just basically a simple and interchangeable way of letting you know what they require you to carry. The premise being that everybody should be well aware what FRA kit is.

I don't think it means that the written rules have changed and you therefore have to carry full kit at every AS, BM, race...

Personally, I always make the assumption that if the race is run under FRA regulations (regardless of category), then it is full mandatory kit unless specifically stated otherwise. That said, I don't recall entering a race recently that wasn't full kit anyway.

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Originally Posted by Travs

When you go to a race where kit is not necessarily mandatory in all conditions (i.e AS, BM, etc)

But you see a sign, or are told "FRA kit regulations"

The decision has (as stated in the rules) still been made by the race organiser... It's just basically a simple and interchangeable way of letting you know what they require you to carry. The premise being that everybody should be well aware what FRA kit is.

I don't think it means that the written rules have changed and you therefore have to carry full kit at every AS, BM, race...

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Ok. So Wolf's Pit - nothing on the website, nothing on Facebook to say that the RO was making any kit requirement. FRA rules don't enforce kit. I travelled over an hour to get to the race - what if I'd not bothered to take kit, and then a sign at registration says 'kit required'? I get that kit is a good idea, I get that taking kit is a good idea 'in case', but surely there shouldn't be this kind of variable right up to the off?

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Originally Posted by PeteS

Personally, I always make the assumption that if the race is run under FRA regulations (regardless of category), then it is full mandatory kit unless specifically stated otherwise.

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And that's ok to make the assumption - you're then covered whatever - but it's not right is it? The rules aren't regardless of category.

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Originally Posted by mountainsloth

Ok. So Wolf's Pit - nothing on the website, nothing on Facebook to say that the RO was making any kit requirement. FRA rules don't enforce kit. I travelled over an hour to get to the race - what if I'd not bothered to take kit, and then a sign at registration says 'kit required'? I get that kit is a good idea, I get that taking kit is a good idea 'in case', but surely there shouldn't be this kind of variable right up to the off?

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My understanding of the rules (i may be wrong) is that for any FRA registered race (outside of those where kit is mandatory), the kit requirement on the day is at the discretion and instruction of the organiser.

Therefore it's safe to assume that at any FRA event there may well be a requirement to carry kit, regardless of race category.

Derby Tup and PeteS have got it bang on... anticipate the fact that kit might be required, and you're covered.

I think it's also worth remembering (and again i might not have this 100% correct) that i'm pretty sure that the RO can stipulate additional kit over and above FRA requirements (i.e extra layers, survival bag, etc) if they see fit.

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Originally Posted by Travs

My understanding of the rules (i may be wrong) is that for any FRA registered race (outside of those where kit is mandatory), the kit requirement on the day is at the discretion and instruction of the organiser.

Therefore it's safe to assume that at any FRA event there may well be a requirement to carry kit, regardless of race category.

Derby Tup and PeteS have got it bang on... anticipate the fact that kit might be required, and you're covered.

I think it's also worth remembering (and again i might not have this 100% correct) that i'm pretty sure that the RO can stipulate additional kit over and above FRA requirements (i.e extra layers, survival bag, etc) if they see fit.

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It just seems a little vague and ambiguous to me. Surely if this is the way we're thinking, the better wording would be that kit was mandatory for all races, but could be waived at the ROs discretion (for applicable categories)? Like I say, I do take kit, and sometimes carry it even if not enforced. However, there must be newcomers who would interpret this as I have, and just roll up in their kit?

Personally think it's a bit of a non-issue.

With all respect to other forms of racing, it's not like a parkrun or local charity 10km where any old joker could potentially turn up.

To get yourself involved in a fell-race generally takes a little resourcefulness, dedication, and arguably fitness... seems to me that most people who make the effort to race on the fells, seem to make the effort to clarify the kit requirements... (the endless kit/shoe/gps debates on facebook appear to be testament to this!)

I've only been racing on the fells for less than 4 years, so a relative newcomer, and have never had an issue... How many people have you actually seen turned away for not realising they might need their kit but they left it at home? (as opposed to people who just rock up to Peris Horseshoe without any experience nor kit whatsoever when it's pissing down and blowing a gale, which i have seen!)

But the RO can't waive the kit requirements for AL, AM, BL races however he can stipulate any extra requirements that he sees fit.

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Originally Posted by Travs

Personally think it's a bit of a non-issue.

With all respect to other forms of racing, it's not like a parkrun or local charity 10km where any old joker could potentially turn up.

To get yourself involved in a fell-race generally takes a little resourcefulness, dedication, and arguably fitness... seems to me that most people who make the effort to race on the fells, seem to make the effort to clarify the kit requirements... (the endless kit/shoe/gps debates on facebook appear to be testament to this!)

I've only been racing on the fells for less than 4 years, so a relative newcomer, and have never had an issue... How many people have you actually seen turned away for not realising they might need their kit but they left it at home? (as opposed to people who just rock up to Peris Horseshoe without any experience nor kit whatsoever when it's pissing down and blowing a gale, which i have seen!)

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Put it this way, there were a few squeaky bums yesterday in the starting pen when the starter called out three random race numbers...

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Originally Posted by mountainsloth

And that's ok to make the assumption - you're then covered whatever - but it's not right is it? The rules aren't regardless of category.

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A RO always can exercise the right to stipulate extra kit depending on the conditions on the day (and this could be a relatively last minute decision.) So regardless of what the rules say, I would always turn up with full mandatory kit anyway.

Sorry, this was a reply to Bigfella
Which is why I said, the better wording would be - FRA full kit is mandatory for all races, but can be waived at the RO's discretion for certain categories, i.e. anything other than AL/AM/BL. That way, every one turns up with everything and the RO can even make a decision five minutes before the start. The other option is, like yesterday, the RO making no mention of kit requirements until the registration tent, which for some people was a twenty minute+ walk from their car.

1: Kit requirements for FRA fell races

Long A, Medium A, Long B
FRA Mandatory Minimum Kit plus any additional kit specified by Race Organiser
FRA Mandatory Minimum Kit is listed below. Additional Race Organiser requirements may include, for example, a thermal layer, a bivi bag, a torch, water etc.

Short A, Medium B, Short B, all category C races
As Race Organiser specifies
Best practice is to carry FRA Mandatory Minimum Kit, but specific requirements are at the Race Organiser’s discretion.


The above taken from FRA rules/runner's requirements...

Seems fairly straight-forward to me

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Originally Posted by Travs

1: Kit requirements for FRA fell races

Long A, Medium A, Long B
FRA Mandatory Minimum Kit plus any additional kit specified by Race Organiser
FRA Mandatory Minimum Kit is listed below. Additional Race Organiser requirements may include, for example, a thermal layer, a bivi bag, a torch, water etc. This is all self explanatory

Short A, Medium B, Short B, all category C races
As Race Organiser specifies When and where? On their website? On Facebook? Two minutes before the race starts on a piece of A4 paper?
Best practice So not mandatoryis to carry FRA Mandatory Minimum Kit, but specific requirements are at the Race Organiser’s discretion.So it could become mandatory at some unspecified point


The above taken from FRA rules/runner's requirements...

Seems fairly straight-forward to me

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That's what I was working from.

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Originally Posted by mountainsloth

It just seems a little vague and ambiguous to me. Surely if this is the way we're thinking, the better wording would be that kit was mandatory for all races, but could be waived at the ROs discretion (for applicable categories)? Like I say, I do take kit, and sometimes carry it even if not enforced. However, there must be newcomers who would interpret this as I have, and just roll up in their kit?

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I do not agree with your "better wording". Philosophically it is not the way fellrunning works.

Races are organised by race organisers ie not the FRA. Fell races existed before the FRA did.

RO are the beating heart of the sport, the FRA is the governing body and the two have different but complementary roles.

For a RO to get their race registered and INSURED they have to agree to comply with FRA rules which include, inter alia, mandatory kit for some categories of races.

Many FRA rules/procedures can be traced back to Coroners' comments after a fell race death which the FRA, as a governing body, had to respond to .

The FRA has a view on "best practice" which it does not seek to impose unnecessarily on RO.

A RO at their race can demand anything they want above FRA mandatory requirements. I recall many years ago when Dark Peak insisted that everybody in the Edale Skyline carry a mobile, when not everybody owned one, and the FRA accepted "their race - their rules". Aka "even if you think the RO is wrong he will still be enough right to refuse you entry to his race". :)

What if the race organiser is not on facebook? what if the organiser specifies 'no kit required' the day before the race, and then in the final couple of hours before the start, it absolutely hoofs it down and the temperature drops? 'Race Organiser specifies' has always seemed to me to be what he tells you when you arrive at the race. If I've ever been in any doubt i just ask at registration, although it's usually pretty clearly indicated.


The rules above give an indication that there can be potential for 'mandatory kit' to be carried. And to be honest, my view is if you read that and then decide that there is no chance of needing kit so you'll leave it at home, then you're making a massive mis-interpretation.

edit: Graham Breeze has put it a lot more eloquently than i can manage...

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

I do not agree with your "better wording". Philosophically it is not the way fellrunning works.

Races are organised by race organisers ie not the FRA. Fell races existed before the FRA did.

RO are the beating heart of the sport, the FRA is the governing body and the two have different but complementary roles.

For a RO to get their race registered and INSURED they have to agree to comply with FRA rules which include, inter alia, mandatory kit for some categories of races.

Many FRA rules/procedures can be traced back to Coroners' comments after a fell race death which the FRA, as a governing body, had to respond to .

The FRA has a view on "best practice" which it does not seek to impose unnecessarily on RO.

A RO at their race can demand anything they want above FRA mandatory requirements. I recall many years ago when Dark Peak insisted that everybody in the Edale Skyline carry a mobile, when not everybody owned one, and the FRA accepted "their race - their rules". Aka "even if you think the RO is wrong he will still be enough right to refuse you entry to his race". :)

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I understand this, and have no problem with the authority of ROs. Let me be clear - they do a fantastic, difficult job. If they said you had to run in a green mankini, I'd be off to the Poundshop forthwith. Furthermore, I don't want to come across as being difficult here, because I'm proud to be a member of the fellrunning community.
That said, it's this interaction between the FRA and ROs which seems sketchy. Hope said full kit was required because its FRA rules. It clearly isn't. However, this wasn't a problem because it was advertised in advance. Wolf's Pit made no mention of kit requirement until the starting paddock, again seeming to say 'hey, it's the FRA, not us'.
This is why I say, surely it would remove the confusion if kit was mandatory, but with the potential to be waived.
As per your mobile phone example - I'm sure that was notified well in advance. What if it had been declared at the start line?

Probably everyone on this Forum, including myself, turns up at a Fell Race with enough kit to cover all eventualities. However I am with Mountainsloth on this one. I have a flyer for Wolfs Pit beside me, which was stuck under my wiper a few weeks ago whilst parked in Hathersage.
It has not got any mention of the FRA or any kit requirements on it.
Looking at the results from yesterdays race 394 runners finished. Were they all FRA members? I doubt it. This and similar flyers can be found in shops, cafes, pubs and various other places and as most Peak District races are only 45mins from Sheffield and Manchester the potential for unprepared and inexperienced runners to enter, or try to, on the day is high.
I think a little clarity would not go amiss which I think was the thrust of Mountainsloth's post and it would probably stop any argy bargy at registration.

[QUOTE=mountainsloth;647609]Hope said full kit was required because its FRA rules. It clearly isn't. However, this wasn't a problem because it was advertised in advance. Wolf's Pit made no mention of kit requirement until the starting paddock, again seeming to say 'hey, it's the FRA, not us'.

I am not commenting on hearsay but people are people, including ROs who sometimes prefer to blame the FRA for kit requirements, and much else, rather than have endless arguments with individual runners - and that is OK and understandable.

And, whisper the thought, some ROs don't actually understand the FRA rules very well.

I have been on many start lines and heard the FRA blamed for many things which, not least because I was Chairman for three years, I know were just not true but I didn't stand on a soap box and say "lies, all lies" but instead I just smiled and got on with my race - hopefully carrying the right kit.

I don't think you're difficult but just accept the way things are - there is a reason.

I can't comment on the specific race in question but if it is not advertised as being run under FRA rules, then I can understand the confusion.

However if it is, then the onus is surely on all runners to turn up with full kit regardless of the category. Simples! No?

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Originally Posted by PeteS

I can't comment on the specific race in question but if it is not advertised as being run under FRA rules, then I can understand the confusion.

However if it is, then the onus is surely on all runners to turn up with full kit regardless of the category. Simples! No?

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Why? If there's an analogy to use here, it would probably be the Highway Code. Must vs should. Don't comply with a must and you risk prosecution, don't comply with a should and you don't. For AL, AM, BL you must carry kit. There's no requirement to carry kit for other categories unless the RO expressly specifies. If you know that, have checked the promotional literature, website, Facebook etc and there is no mention of requirements, why would the onus be on you to turn up with kit?
I'm not arguing against the merit of kit, the need for kit or the decision of ROs to enforce kit, I'm just trying to understand why there's this grey area that can cause confusion.

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Originally Posted by mountainsloth

If you know that, have checked the promotional literature, website, Facebook etc and there is no mention of requirements, why would the onus be on you to turn up with kit?.

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Because the RO decision is final (as the rules clearly state), and they may specify that full kit is required...

So why not mention that "they may specify that full kit is required" prior to registration.

The rules cover the whole year.
But
The RO covers that race on that day.

Best practice is have everything in your car, and pack at least minimum.

I've done knee ligaments in a race and been stuck on the moors for 2 hours in freezing hail. Bloody scary.

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Originally Posted by mountainsloth

Why? If there's an analogy to use here, it would probably be the Highway Code. Must vs should. Don't comply with a must and you risk prosecution, don't comply with a should and you don't. For AL, AM, BL you must carry kit. There's no requirement to carry kit for other categories unless the RO expressly specifies. If you know that, have checked the promotional literature, website, Facebook etc and there is no mention of requirements, why would the onus be on you to turn up with kit?
I'm not arguing against the merit of kit, the need for kit or the decision of ROs to enforce kit, I'm just trying to understand why there's this grey area that can cause confusion.

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I'm not disagreeing with you. If you know in advance that the highway code is what you need to adhere to then fine and if the RO stipulates that in advance then alls well and good.
However, if the race is under FRA regs, they can and should issue instructions to carry any other kit on the day depending on the conditions. Therefore you should turn up with it even if it you don't need it.

Mountainsloths views as a relative newcomer are very valuable and do point out a continuing question which some people never seem to be able to grasp. Derby Tup puts it clearly and sensibly but unfortunately dingbats abound and clarity and sensibility are alien to them. And the point about where harsher fell races are bagged up together with slightly challenging trail races near urban centres is also important.
Perhaps its time to re-think the definition of a fell race and direct some races towards the trail racing fraternity? Then make the carrying of full kit mandatory at all fell races with reduction at RO discretion?

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Perhaps its time to re-think the definition of a fell race and direct some races towards the trail racing fraternity? Then make the carrying of full kit mandatory at all fell races with reduction at RO discretion?

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Some of the"trail" races near me venture onto ground that is really fell. One recent event had 2 competitors evacuated by mountain rescue. Some fell running friends on a training run assisted with one until the MRT arrived. I understand there were no kit requirements.

Well, thats a good point. The underlying issue is that, on a good day everything will be fine and a race will pass without mishap. BUT the races are happening outside of an urban support network so any mishap can suddenly become quite major. There was that brilliant article in the Fell Runner a couple of years back where, on a lovely sunny day, a poor chap stumbled and gashed his knee very badly. It could have ended up more serious had not a fellow competitor arrived carrying full kit on a fine, sunny day. His wet weather gear was put to use an emergency tourniquet and dressing.
Moral of story. ALWAYS carry full kit. Its not just for you but for your fellow competitor who might suffer an unexpected misfortune away from the usual first aid facilities of an urban environment.

Whether you agree with the specifics or not (and I personally think ROs should have more discretion, but that's another issue) it's the case that the rules as they currently stand have made things clearer. I remember in the past one race with three different notices in and around registration, each specifying different kit and another with one at the car park which was different to the one at registration, a mile away. That no longer seems to happen.

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Originally Posted by mountainsloth

Why? If there's an analogy to use here, it would probably be the Highway Code. Must vs should. Don't comply with a must and you risk prosecution, don't comply with a should and you don't. For AL, AM, BL you must carry kit. There's no requirement to carry kit for other categories unless the RO expressly specifies. If you know that, have checked the promotional literature, website, Facebook etc and there is no mention of requirements, why would the onus be on you to turn up with kit?
I'm not arguing against the merit of kit, the need for kit or the decision of ROs to enforce kit, I'm just trying to understand why there's this grey area that can cause confusion.

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True, but if you are involved in an accident on the Highway then the "should" becomes a material factor in deciding blame.....

Personally I don't see a grey area - in the absence of the RO specifying anything in advance, then assume you should take minimum kit PLUS whatever you think you might need in addition, and then see what the RO thinks on the day. I do agree that this should be made clearer in any pre-race publicity etc for the benefit of non FRA members and those who aren't familiar with the minimum kit requirements.

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Originally Posted by stumpy

True, but if you are involved in an accident on the Highway then the "should" becomes a material factor in deciding blame.....

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My point is, you're not going to get arrested for a 'should' - you might get tutted at or thought inconsiderate, but that's about it unless, as you say, it leads to something else. Likewise, my interpretation of 'best practice', in the absence of specific RO direction, is like an advisory - something where if you didn't take it and ultimately needed it, it would result in an 'I told you so' rather than being barred entry or disqualified; an attempt to shift liability should an insurance claim arise.
I think if I'm going to take anything from this, it's that I shouldn't have felt quite so intimidated/like a novice in my early experiences of fell racing. For something which should have quite a straightforward, explicit explanation, there's a lot of talk of 'assumption' and 'just in case'. It seems that the way people treat the kit issue comes down to their ongoing experience of fell racing rather than them being able to actually reference a definitive answer.
As Wheeze said, I am still a relative newcomer with probably 20 races under my belt. Easing myself in, the majority of these have been the 'country fair' type races - 7km, summer nights, local pub just out of view. In addition, many of the routes are over ground that I used to roam as a kid, when 'kit requirement' was your Bowie knife with matches and fishing wire in the handle, and an army surplus flask from Yeomans ;) That probably brings with it a naivety that those who have already experienced an AL in December have left well behind.

Love that description of your younger self sloth! You have clearly always been ready for the outdoor life. Bowie knife should be added to FRA minimum kit list 😂.
You have also realised the rather major range of events that huddle under the FRA umbrella. You can't easily legislate for all with a simple set of rules although we have cobbled along pretty well for the last 40 years.
Anyway, if you respect the outdoors more than treasure a selfish desire not to carry the piffling regulation kit (for why....to go faster?🙄) then you will always do the right thing😉