Very sad news. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e_iOSApp_Other
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Very sad news. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e_iOSApp_Other
That's awful. 21 people!
A really tragedy, sounds absolutely horrific. Some more (non-hyperbolic, non-judgemental) details here: https://www.irunfar.com/twenty-one-r...A4fPJTbDe0JvEc
A good report, as one might expect from this source. The absence of mandatory kit eg no water proof, no warm layer, no survival kit,..., tells you all you need to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
Twenty one deaths certainly suggests that no proper risk assessment was done - to say the least.
This is interesting:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...80603220302179
It does seem perverse (?- can’t find the right word!) that I carried (rightly so) full waterproofs, head torch and a survival bag, having been through a rigorous kit check for a 2hour evening jaunt around Dovedale a couple of weeks ago, and the other event took place without some of those basic requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
There were experienced competitors in the race who had raced internationally!
Unnecessary and avoidable tragedy.
Indeed, thanks. These 21 deaths due to hypothermia will certainly skew the numbers next time this analysis is run. So here's an evidence-based recommendation from this manuscript:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
There is a charity called CRY (cardiac research in the young) who screen young athletes for cardiac abnormalities, and probably have prevented lots of deaths by doing this. There's not a corresponding charity cardiac research in middle aged and old athletes. Perhaps there should be.Quote:
The relatively high percentage of sudden cardiac deaths stresses the need for preparticipation cardiovascular screenings
The Life Scientific, R4 this morning is going to be about exposure and hypothermia. From the trailer it.might be primarily about cold water immersion but likely to be of interest.
Clearly not much attention was paid to weather forecast?
I'm sure there will be repercussions on the organization and in this case rightly so, but also experienced runners heading out on mountains in possible bad weather not carrying extra kit is not so clever.
Mandatory does not mean you can't chose to be sensible and take a little extra. Space blankets on the mountains for heaven's sake.
Just throwing a comment...
without data at hand, I would say most avoidable tragedies in sport come from not previously known cardiovascular issues. In Italy, where I'm from, before you are allowed to enter any competitive event, in any sport, a cardiologist certificate is required, normally an ECG under effort. Of course not perfect, but a huge step in the right direction. I know of fit young good club runners (not fat old smokers!) that were denied participation, because the cardiologist found something.
I was shocked in Britain this is not bothered.
Speaking with a friend, English in England, who happen to be a great runner and a sport lawyer, he said "because the law is different, here the liability is on the participant themselves rather than on the race organizer, that's why they don't need to bother". From a lawyer, bad answer. Forget who is liable by law, think rather what happens next ...
Complaining about the nanny state anyone?
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark G
Yes it was and yes it was.
I enjoyed that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark G
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by brett
I had been toying with doing an Ironman.
But now I'm not so sure.
While this was extremely tragic and is a salutary reminder of the need for appropriate risk assessments etc. I do worry that vigorous advocates of the nanny state will seize on this as another opportunity to lay the heavy hand of restriction on risky, but appropriate, outdoor activities. We'll see:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambatte
It’s a difficult one to strike the right balance on. Some will prefer assessment of their own risk and want to rely on their own decision-making, others would advocate for more stringent rules around kit, skills, etc.
I do wonder what the FRA’s minimum kit list is designed to do. Anyone immobilised and off route in severe wet and windy weather is not going to survive for very long with only waterproofs, hat and gloves to put on. Of course individuals should make their own judgements and carry additional kit as appropriate, but there’s a risk that a “mandatory” kit list will be viewed as definitive, especially by those with relatively little experience of the hills in bad weather.
I think in the case of this Chinese race, it would have been reasonable for the officials to require some sort of kit that would have mitigated the lethal effects of the weather if a cold/wet snap were to happen. This seems a reasonable step that won't change the nature of these races, and I hope race organisers and official bodies take note - 21 deaths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
You're right Hank, you'll never (and in my view should never) take the risk out of it completely. For me the balance is around what would change the nature of the sport.
I get the feeling that there’s an awful lot about the tragedy that’s not known so it’s hard to judge too much one way or the other. I think the weather itself might have been super extreme - heavy rain turning to sleet, snow and ice, really strong winds, up at around 3,000 feet and massively plunging temperatures can still cover a massive range of potential weather outcomes.
I don’t know how many checkpoints there were either but typically in ultra events there are food stops and CPs every 8 to 10 miles, with the route usually following a known trail. I know from pictures I’ve seen from ultra races in the US that a lot of the top runners seem to run with relatively minimal kit and perhaps that is influenced by the general high level of race support available, and frequent CPs.
That said the kit requirements do seem a bit too biased towards the runners being willing to take all the risks
Yeah, agree. From what information is available it seems the required kit was woefully insufficient. Personally I think races generally should require much more kit (if they're going to have kit requirements), but risk will always remain and that's ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
This isn’t just the Chinese being lax by the way - this is plucked from a random U.K. ultra running web page where they were asking a well known and apparently experienced ultra distance runner (the grand union canal 145 mile race mentioned) their top five kit requirements :)
“What would be the 5 ‘must have’ items for every ultra runner?
Chafing cream. Be proactive and apply to all your sensitive areas before the run to help keep a smile on your face all day!
Your favorite energy food. Experiment during training runs to find a selection of foods that you will look forward to eating. If you love Monster Munch, include some extra in your drop bag in case you could stomach nothing else late in the race.
Toilet roll and wet wipes… for the obvious reasons
Capsules that you can swallow or tablets or powder you can add to your water bottle or bladder
Bottle, flask or reservoir. Choose your method to carry liquid based on some experimentation. Ease of drinking, ease of access and getting the bottle back into its pocket, ease of refilling, ease of cleaning, reliability of that device, comfort, weight, cost – all are factors to choose the best method of carrying fluid for you”
Toilet rolls and wet wipes ffs!
Something that hasn't been mentioned is thermal base layers (Helly Hansen Lifa or similar) as useful protection against cold weather.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
I remember one fell race a few years ago, held in October in average temperatures for the time of year, with intermittent rain. For some reason I didn't wear a base layer, just a long-sleeved T-shirt and a waterproof (with taped seams). I was fine all the way round, but as I stood around chatting after the race, I suddenly noticed how cold I was feeling. I had gone over on my ankle during the race; if that had immobilised me, I might have been in serious trouble, whereas with a base layer I would have cooled down much more slowly.
Sometimes we need to revert to the traditional, truly tried and tested. IE Ron Hill (RIP) tracksters, Smelly Helly (the itchy type) and a Buffalo windshirt...oh and wool balaclava of choice. Sorted! Well, at least better than wet wipes :D
For sure, there's a big difference between a club vest with a superlight waterproof and a substantial long-sleeved baselayer and decent weight waterproof. I'm surprised more events don't specify a warm layer in required kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
I suggest what it will do is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
- ensure you stay dryer and warmer than someone running almost naked, assuming you are intelligent enough to put it on
- and so help you stay rationale in the navigational decisions that you may have to make
- and help you run rather than stumble and shuffle along, cold, shivering and depressed and possibly hypothermic.
The most important aspect of surviving in a fell race in extremis is to stay on the route and to do that you need to be calm and thinking rationally, and that is a lot easier if you are warm and dry. The five classic deaths from hypothermia in fell races in England + Wales were all off-route when found dead. (And so was Chris Smith, the international mountain runner, who died last October in Perthshire).
On the spectrum of fell runner attitudes: at one extreme there are the majority who believe that nothing bad will happen to them because it never has; and then there are those who never quibble about carrying kit because they have experienced having to ponder if this was their last day alive.
Well I'm definitely in the second group but have to agree that the mandatory kit would not be sufficient in extreme cases so I also carry an emergency bivvy bag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
I agree and in the overwhelming majority of cases that will be sufficient to avoid the immobile, off-route worst case scenarios. Nonetheless, personally I think it's not quite right that the minimum necessary kit evidently would be not be enough to protect someone who got in to serious difficulty. Not a criticism of the FRA as they're trying to find a balance and my sense (possibly incorrectly) is that there's a desire among at least some members to keep kit to a minimum, and we're all encouraged to make our own choices in terms of additional kit. I'd be happy to see survival bag and warm layer added to the "minimum" list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
I think part of the problem is a lack of understanding about how much (or in reality how little) protection the minimum mandatory kit would provide in an emergency - this is then compounded by decisions made on that basis - ie to carry on or even to start in the false belief that the kit will keep them safe and, if not exactly warm,at least alive and functioning.
I have to disagree to a certain extent with the suggestion to stay on the route - I don't think leaving the route in and of itself is the problem. It might be very appropriate and sensible to drop down to a lower level and return via the valley (or by taxi!) than to carry on. The problem as I see it is leaving that decision until it's too late and the runner, probably compromised by hypothermia and exhaustion no longer has the endurance to make it safely down and perhaps making it between checkpoints so others are possibly unaware of your intentions.
Well I've written about this before but when fell racing "started" there was no FRA kit requirement and what has developed has usually been in reaction to the deaths I mentioned above. A death makes it easier to bring about change. Not least because a Coroner's words carry legal weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
Any prior-Inquest inertia has not necessarily been because of a reactionary FRA Committee (who are mostly fell runners) but because the FRA cannot impose rules that Race Organisers (who are mostly fell runners or ex-fell runners) or competitors will not accept.
I own and may have carried a survival bag but if ROs will not accept that, say, survival bags are "compulsory" and will not support kit checks, and implement remedial action for runners,... etc it doesn't matter what the FRA Committee thinks or says.
The members of the FRA Committee are elected every year and if they lose touch with what ROs and competitors feel is "right" then they will be replaced by others who claim to better represent fell runners.
A friend who is a keen cold water swimmer recently had an episode of AF, and, looking online to see if there was any connection between the two, I stumbled across and was reading an interesting article in the Guardian featuring Mike Tipton - and who was on BBC R4 - The Life Scientific - at the same time? Mike Tipton!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark G
https://www.theguardian.com/news/202...y-broken-heart
I'm pondering (and it has no practical purpose whatsoever regarding solutions, just idle curiosity) on whether those who take up fellrunning through the fellwalking,climbing, cycling and other outdoor activities route, are more inclined to carry a better level of survival kit than those who have become fell runners primarily as an upgraded from their previous road running.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Poor naked wretches, ....
That bide the pelting of this pitiless storm,
How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides,
Your loop'd and window'd raggedness, defend you
From seasons such as these?
Well the Forum is not really suitable for subtle debate but I accept your points and I have twice (in 1300 fell races!) dropped down out of foul weather to a road valley having decided that was the safest thing to do, and once retraced my steps along the race route to the start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark G
But it is valid to say that if you go missing rescuers will start looking along the race route and true that none of the five classic fatalities were found on the race route.
Your first point is quite profound. You could plot the sequence of events leading to a death from decisions made before one even leaves home - what kit one puts in the car, then take to the line, then the decision to start, when to put the "full" kit on, if to turn back or continue etc. Single, small decisions that compound and can result in a tragedy.
I’m definitely in the ‘a damn close run thing’ gang, in my early years of fell running, doing a High Peak Marathon recce around the always god foresaken Howden Edge and Bleaklow and getting caught out in the mother of all snow storms. Ian Winterburn, Emmilou and Southernsoftie of this forum (once in a time) were with me and others and we managed to lose the Pennine Way after Bleaklow under three feet of snow 😊
I had frost nip in my toes for a few months after and it’s safe to say I’m a bit more careful of kit I carry because of it. And more liable to take the long view, it’s better to fight on another day, than roll the dice and think myself invincible