How much road is tolerable?

I have often mentioned my dislike of tarmac and other hard surfaces. But living in Leicestershire, I can't always get to real fell terrain, and so I do peruse various trail-running websites to see if there is anything suitable for my preferences. Just occasionally, I do find something that looks good.

The Ambles Revenge at Oxspring (near Penistone) looked quite good https://racebest.com/races/46u75: but the more I study the route, the less good it looks. There is not too much on public roads, but the Trans-Pennine Trail is a hard surface, and there are also substantial sections on farm tracks that look like they may be too well surfaced for my liking.

Then there are the trail races at Staunton Harold https://www.endorphinsport.com/10km-...-run-canicross. I could cycle to this place within an hour from home, and it has great potential for a varied race across rough grass and woodland paths, and there's that lovely steep slope on the east side of the estate. The course does go through the woodland, but as far as I can see from the satellite view on Google Maps, the route is mostly on hard-packed vehicle tracks and road (most of it is not public rights of way, so I haven't recce'd it, although I may go for a little trespass some time); and it keeps off that steep slope. I don't think I am going to be paying £24 for the privilege of running a rather uninspiring 10km.

I suppose, if I was desperate for some off-road racing at this time of year, I could re-join Charnwood AC and run in the North Midlands Cross-Country League, but somehow the idea of running laps round Berry Hill Park (Mansfield) or Markeaton Park (Derby) just doesn't appeal to me any more. The best non-fell races that I have found seem mostly to be little events organised by someone in a village who wants to raise money for a local charity, and which I only find out about when I happen to see a link on Facebook (because that's the only place they are advertised): Gaddesby Gallop, Hoby Hop, Higham Hill Race.

To me, trail or "hilly road races" just don't serve a purpose...

Obviously fell is my priority, but if i'm doing a standard distance, 5km/10km/10mile/etc, then i'm looking for a time and prefer to do it on the fastest circuit possible, so either a known quick road course, or the track.

Obviously that is quite irrelevant to your original issue of disliking roads in general!!

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Originally Posted by Travs

To me, trail or "hilly road races" just don't serve a purpose...

Obviously fell is my priority, but if i'm doing a standard distance, 5km/10km/10mile/etc, then i'm looking for a time and prefer to do it on the fastest circuit possible, so either a known quick road course, or the track.

Obviously that is quite irrelevant to your original issue of disliking roads in general!!

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We clearly have very different objectives in our running. Standard distances mean nothing to me; I just want to run over interesting terrain in pleasant surroundings. So I might compare my times in the same race over different years, but not in races of a particular distance.

Well I tend to steer clear of the tarmac or hard pack races purely because I just don't like running on the surface - I have enough injuries already, thank you!
However, I always used to do the Kinver 10k which for a road race, had an absolute wall (10-15%?) after about 3k in and had about 250m ascent in all. I loved it as a seasoned fell runner as the road guys would be walking and I'd sail past them. At my peak, I think my best result was 16th overall.
Thankfully, there are a few trail races around these parts that fill the gap between fell races. Probably next up for me is the Stourbridge Stagger which is truly multi-terrain - grass, mud, gravel,road, sand and more mud. In its 10 miles, probably 1.5 is on tarmac but a great race nonetheless.

I've always found tarmac useful for knocking a notch on and getting rid of persuers. Most people in my section of a field aren't too quick on the flat. What does irritate me is the way it ruins your studs.

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

I've always found tarmac useful for knocking a notch on and getting rid of persuers. Most people in my section of a field aren't too quick on the flat. What does irritate me is the way it ruins your studs.

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I do actually remember one Leics & Rutland County Cross-Country Champs which included a section along a farm track. The track itself was tarmac, but with broad grass verges on both sides, and the grass was quite rough. Most runners were wearing spikes, and ran along the grass; I was in Walshes, and could run along the tarmac, which was definitely faster.

But yes, tarmac isn't good for studs, although I often wonder if gravelly or sandy surfaces may wear studs down even faster than flat tarmac.

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Originally Posted by anthonykay

I do actually remember one Leics & Rutland County Cross-Country Champs which included a section along a farm track. The track itself was tarmac, but with broad grass verges on both sides, and the grass was quite rough. Most runners were wearing spikes, and ran along the grass; I was in Walshes, and could run along the tarmac, which was definitely faster.

But yes, tarmac isn't good for studs, although I often wonder if gravelly or sandy surfaces may wear studs down even faster than flat tarmac.

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I'm known for using sections of grass at bramley parkrun that others avoid; you can actually avoid most of the tarmac if you want.

In my part of the world we have effectively lost our best off-road running area. The New Forest authority has refused permits to some races and only allowed others if they stick to the gravel tracks.

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Originally Posted by gej

In my part of the world we have effectively lost our best off-road running area. The New Forest authority has refused permits to some races and only allowed others if they stick to the gravel tracks.

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So what has happened to orienteering in the New Forest? Back in the days when I was orienteering, the New Forest was regarded as one of the best areas for orienteering in the South. Course planners would need to keep away from ecologically sensitive locations, which was manageable; but a total ban on off-track running would obviously make orienteering impossible.

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Originally Posted by anthonykay

So what has happened to orienteering in the New Forest? Back in the days when I was orienteering, the New Forest was regarded as one of the best areas for orienteering in the South. Course planners would need to keep away from ecologically sensitive locations, which was manageable; but a total ban on off-track running would obviously make orienteering impossible.

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A limited number of events are allowed, but with ever increasing limits on competitor numbers, location, timing, etc.
LDWA have recently abandoned their long running New Forest Marathon - this used to be a rarity among LDWA events in not issuing a detailed route description - only checkpoint locations and a suggested (but not compulsory) route.

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Originally Posted by anthonykay

I do actually remember one Leics & Rutland County Cross-Country Champs which included a section along a farm track. The track itself was tarmac, but with broad grass verges on both sides, and the grass was quite rough. Most runners were wearing spikes, and ran along the grass; I was in Walshes, and could run along the tarmac, which was definitely faster.

But yes, tarmac isn't good for studs, although I often wonder if gravelly or sandy surfaces may wear studs down even faster than flat tarmac.

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Fitz Park Keswick used to be good for that. The long stretch up the riverside track must have been over 400m and I could just pick off folk in spikes in my New Balance Walsh lookalikes.
It was a great course as well with some super views of Skiddaw from the far field.

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Originally Posted by anthonykay

We clearly have very different objectives in our running. Standard distances mean nothing to me; I just want to run over interesting terrain in pleasant surroundings. So I might compare my times in the same race over different years, but not in races of a particular distance.

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Maybe we are spoilt around here, but we have some races that are over interesting terrain, and through pleasant surroundings and I also find I enjoy the company of running in a group, even if I'm getting closer to the back with every race :D
Through the Villages is one of the favourites just round the corner from me. I also used to like the Calder Vale 10 on the flanks of the Bowland Fells.

At my level of running currently, any amount of tarmac is fine - just getting out 2-3 times a week and running 3-4 miles, so tarmac, gravel towpath, or grass of Witton, I'll just take it and hopefully have some fitness to do some local fell runs and races come March/April.

Just off out now for about 40 minutes in my road shoes :D

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Fitz Park Keswick used to be good for that. The long stretch up the riverside track must have been over 400m and I could just pick off folk in spikes in my New Balance Walsh lookalikes.
It was a great course as well with some super views of Skiddaw from the far field.

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I'm pretty sure that Fitz Park is the venue for one of the Cumbrian races this season (either the county champs or one of the league races). I must say it isn't a very challenging course for XC.

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Originally Posted by Travs

I'm pretty sure that Fitz Park is the venue for one of the Cumbrian races this season (either the county champs or one of the league races). I must say it isn't a very challenging course for XC.

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We used to do in the Mid Lancs. I only remember the one climb up behind the pavilion so no not the toughest, but enjoyed it as it was a change for us.
Haven't run there for probably 12 years as I think Keswick withdrew from the ML league so now only used in Cumbrian League and County Champs.