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Anyone any idea as to how much your normal running pace is affected when fellrunning at night???
A route I often do which takes about 30mins in daylight took me over an hour last night!
C'mon you regular night owls - what's your experience on this subject???
:confused: :confused: :confused:
I guess it depends on how cautious you are, how much light your head torch gives, how clear or rocky the paths are, the weather etc..
I'm very slow anyway even in day light and plod along at my own pace, but i'm probably that bit slower at night on uneven paths or ones that i don't know very well.
depends on the ground, but I find (not unsurprisingly)that I always go slower at night because of the mental siderather than the physical. The night sort of lulls you in to a slower pace however easy it is to see. If its really misty or the ground is broken and you're going downhill or on the flat, its far slower - pretty much walking pace if its really bad. Other than that, I reckon on adding say 25% going down or on the flat.
Definately a lot slower. Up and down the Llanberis path took me almost 2:30 hrs last month, it would normally take under 1:40, nearer 1:30ish I'd guess, we got up in not much over an hour but due to thick fog and rain took almost as long to get back down again.
Depending on the terrain obviously but as much as a 25%-50% as much time again is about right in my experience. Grassy terrain and ascending tends to be about the same, just a slight bit longer. Obviously running over something like Glyder Fawr and Glyder Fach would take far longer.
Holding the torch lower does give you a bit more visibility, but I also find I'm just more careful at night. In the Day I'll let myself maybe get a bit too cold as I can be down pretty quickly but I'm careful at night not to get too cold or cold hands etc.
I'm also stricter on Navigation, just double checking I am where I think I am, just in case.
I think it depends almost entirely on how good your head torch is. We do a lot of night running in our club and the people with really good torches are able to run at almost full pace. We use 20W halogen head torches which give a superb light level.
You do get a certain lack of shading with head torches, as the light source is very close to your eyes, and this is perhaps the main drawback with head torches, because it's harder to make out the shapes on the ground without shadows - tree roots are our biggest problem but I imagine it's the same on rock.
Practice is the other thing, you need to get used to it, but once you're in the groove you can really fly at night and it feels great :)
I do alot of my training at night off road and don't find too much variation in my pace. The only time I struggle is if I'm running through wooded areas as the trees sometimes play tricks with your vision.
I use the Myo XP which is a nice enough Torch, but another runner has one of the Silva ones, which is a lot better, but costs a bit more. It does make a big difference though.
I also use rechargeable batteries just for financial reasons, but I don't think its as bright as with newly bought batteries. On good trails there won't be a massive difference, but even on the llanberis path (mainly to and from Clogwyn Station), I was far slower in the dark.
I also use rechargeable batteries just for financial reasons, but I don't think its as bright as with newly bought batteries.
Iain. How old are your rechargeables. I've bought some 2500 mAh batteries (£16 with charger from Tesco). They are at least as bright as Duracells from the start and stay brighter for longer in my Princeton Apex head torch. The instructions with the torch say that rechargeables have a better discharge curve, giving a higher voltage for longer.
Speed wise, it also depends who you're trying to keep up with! GeoffB, Leo and some of the other Pennine Thursday night darkness crew take no prisoners in the dark.:D I love it!
Bad weather does slow you down more than in daylight though.
I'll agree with that but in general I find very little difference, maybe a couple of minutes over a typical hour's run. I run over roughish Pennine moorland which is probably easier in the dark than the rockier terrain in the Lakes or North Wales.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichT
I tend to move onto the roads in Winter, pace being the very reason. Although I love fell running in summer and winter weekends. I would rather spend my winter evening running on the hilly roads around Darwen. I have a great loop that gets me 1800ft of ascent in 10 miles. I find this is done much faster than on the fells with a head torch. So in my personal opinion, Im getting a better workout.
I think so too, but fells were definitely safer bet tonight because of severe ice on roads and pavements, 3-4 inches of snow on the tops here, but still fell on me arse. Ouch.
I find running at night a bit slower depending on terrain, on my grassier runs not much difference really but on the rockier fells it can be quite a lot, again weather plays a big part in it, mist that would not bother you in the daytime can make even well known runs confusing.
If you want to train for speed the fells at night aren't a good idea but I don't fellrun at night for training :D
Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotOnUrHelly
Totally agree, we get out every thursday night with Eryri, the training is no doubt some help but the hour or 2 training wise could be better spent. But I just love being out at night, it really is a unique experience, it is also getting used to being out in the dark, navigating in the dark for a possible PBR attempt later in the summer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggins
I think one of the best runs I've ever done was over the hills north of the clyde between Erskine Bridge and Dumbarton (Kilpatrick Hills?), full moon, snow on the ground, it was like Daylight, a brilliant evening run.
Sadly this year has been such a bad winter (wind wise more than rain), especially Thursday nights, that although we've always done an off road run, we've only once done the planned route up to a summit.
RichT: Not sure, I think they may be 1300? Really not sure, I'll have a look, it may be worth investing in some better batteries. I just picked these up from B & Q as I passed the check out.
RichT: Just checked my batteries are 800, which explains things then. I'll go out and by some better ones today.
The milli amp hour rating of the batteries is an indication of how long they last, not the voltage they give.
As Rich T says, rechargeable cells like Nickel Metal Hydride have a very flat discharge curve and run out very suddenly, but 1300s, 2500s etc will only be longer lasting, not brighter. Your 800s will be just as bright as Rich T's 2500s - until they run out.
Brand new rechargeable batteries can be brighter because they produce up to 1.4V (compared to 1.2V rating), but the performance falls off to provide 1.2V in the long term.
Cheers, maybe I'll stick then just make sure I recharge after every run.
Well said Bill. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Baggins
I hate road running so much that it's a choice of the fells in the dark or no training at all - so it is a better workout for me!
Speed wise, I'd sum it up by saying the weather/visibility will slow you down more at night but in decent conditions your pace is limited more by experience/confidence than anything else. As you do more night running you can find yourself going virtually as fast at night as during the day.
Your headtorch must make a difference (obviously) but I don't really think a big Silva 480 or something is required. I have a Petzl Duo with 14 LED module and it's quite adequate - even for a fast descent of Coniston Old Man the other night! Come to think of it, Bill's Petzl Myobelt XP must also rank as "adequate" as he was right on my heels all the time! :D
I was thinking about this thread last night during our little jaunt in the Black Mountains.
My headtorch is a cheap and nasty 3 LED 'toolstation special', but even this often adequate for most evening runs. As the batteries run down the LEDs appear to turn more bluish and this affects the amount of light reflected from mud and grass. I have noticed that some torches used by other runners produce a softer white light which is better. I also find that spotting hazards such as rocks, tree roots etc is tricky because of the lack of perspective you get from having the torch on your head - it is often better if you hold the torch in your hand on the uneven bits - this way you can also cast the light around without having to look away from your path!
As for timings, I find that descent times are a lot slower because it is very difficult to run fast on tricky terrain when you can only see a small spot of light (running on well made up paths is different). Ascent times are not all that bad, but still slightly slower than the daylight times - sometimes due to the inability to pick the optimum path due to lack of long visibility.
I compared some times from last night's ascent of Pen Cerrig-calch, we made the trig point in about 33mins compared to 29mins as part of the Black Mountains race, which is about 14% slower (but some of this could be attributed to icy conditions !!). Other routes have proved to be about 20% slower overall, but times improve with practise.
Not always.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyNoMates
I was once coming down off Pillar and had been holding the torch in my hand due to the mist, came out of the mist on the steep descent heading towards blacksail and I slipped, threw my hands down to stop myself and my torch clattered against the rocks and broke off from the strap, its very difficult trying to attach a headtorch to a strap when you can't see what your doing :o
Bill
That reminds me that I should carry a spare headtorch!Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggins
A spare is always a good idea, just a Petzl Tikka or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
It gets interesting running in a group when somebody's torch fails, it's best running alongside them, but this isn't always possible, and then being ahead of them can be more useful than being behind - although the light-less runner can't see the ground immediately under their feet they can see what's coming up. If running behind the light-less one they are in their own shadow a lot, which is worse.
We carry these as a back up.
http://www.basegear.com/petzl-elite-headlamp.html
I use a tikka xp as spare now and myo xp belt as main lamp, slightly overkill but I've been experimenting with a red filter on the tikka.
Bill
I would have loved to be able to accept Luv Shack's invitation to head up onto Kinder tonight. Snow lying, a bit of moonlight - I can imagine how magical it must be. Easier to find that rocky knoll than in daylight on Sunday!
I have great memories from when I lived in Scotland, of a group of us running flat out downhill in snow on Ben Ledi, and of another run up Dumyat and back in the snow. There was so much light about that there was no need for headtorches.
Why the red filter, are you trying to convert the blue Petzl light into white or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggins
It just gives out a red light which doesn't affect your night vision, the light output must be reduced by about 95% though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie
Can be useful when the moon's out when you don't need the main light on but want to see where your putting your feet.
Bill
I've often thought a yellow filter would be a good idea for misty conditions, provided you didn't lose too much light output in the process. It's noticable how much better the yellowish halogen bulb in my Duo penetrates mist.
Remember when French cars all had yellow headlights? That was something to do with performance in fog I think, and fog lamps for cars are often yellow because light at the yellow end of the spectrum performs better in heavy moisture vapour than light at the blue end.
Just a thought.....
Is it not because yellow is less likely to dazzle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF5/593.html
I'll have to check it out.
I think next time I go for a night run I'll have plenty of spare lights :D
Bill
I think it was because they looked chic with a Gitane, a pastis and a bad attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
Oh, is this an excuse for this by the way?
top tune - not heard that for years or maybe not wanted too as she stole my beau!!!;)
Hmmm, interesting, but the final statement (that fog lights "don't exist") is plainly untrue. The main feature of a fog light for a car is its beam pattern. It gives a wide flat beam, to better illuminate the verges without dazzling. They are also best mounted low down (the automotive equivalent of carrying your headtorch in your hand) but yellow has been used for years because it is percieved to give better visibility in fog. That might be to do with peculiarities of the human eye but anyone who has had a Petzl Myo or Duo with LED and halogen (or even an old Zoom) will know that a yellowish light seems better in mist. It may be to do with dazzle though; - reflected yellow light doesn't dazzle as much as reflected white light!Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggins
Some experimentation is obviously required..... wonder if you can still buy that pale amber stuff you used to paint onto your headlights when going to France?
Makes perfect sense TrundlerQuote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
I think it is to do with white light causing more dazzle rather than yellow light cutting through the mist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
Using a filter/paint will reduce the light output maybe not as much as my red filter does but it will be less.
It would be better using a torch with a halogen bulb to test the theory, I just happen to have a torch with said bulb all I need now is a night off work and some mist ;)
Bill
Yellow fog lights? I haven't seen a car with yellow fog lights for about 30 years :confused:.
oops I think we're showing our ages here :DQuote:
Originally Posted by david
Bill
It's true that modern cars don't seem to have them but there are still plenty about, and companies like Cibie still make them (usually yellow bulbs rather than yellow glass though).Quote:
Originally Posted by david
The Pennine group regularly run on the fells at night, but last Thursday saw some serious fog/mist. I run with a myo xp and can run at a quick pace under normal conditions, I was slowed to a shuffle by the fog until some of us decided to carry our torches at waist height, made about a 30% improvement in speed I think. I dont think it matters that much what colour your lense is then. Hope that helps. Looking forward to snow and clear nights again....Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggins
When it's foggy, it's definitely worth holding your headtorch in your hand. Makes a big difference. (Macc were out last Wednesday in the same conditions).
Hey Double Dee are you that one who used to be in Legs and Co? Phwooaaarr!
I had to carry my headtorch in my hand the other day cos I was getting a bit light-headed.