Permissive Paths not on maps

Is anyone else really frustrated by the number of permissive paths on the ground that are missing from OS maps? Often the only way you find them is when you happen to run past one. I've come up with a short list based on the South-west Peak District, anyone want to add to the list? Anywhere in the UK would do, but I've come up with a couple of restrictions:

Paths entirely within access land aren't listed.
Path isn't marked as Permissive Path on the latest OS 1:25,000. (Use the Get-a-map from http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/)
Path must be in a hilly area.

Shutlingsloe: Access from Macc Forest
976711 - 975699
Permissive Path to Access Land from Macc Forest. Stiles continue through to join ROW near Shutlingsloe.

Macc Forest - Lamaload Missing Link
971733 - 971736
Stiles but no path. Joins the two ROW together.

Macc Forest - Lamaload Missing Link?
965734 - 965737?
I think there's a path here also.

Lamaload Reservoir: Reservior Circuit Link Path
973745 - 974745
Singposted path through trees from ROW to the road.

Goyt Valley: Erwood Hall - misc. paths
00.74.
Several paths shown on map are open, plus a couple not marked:
Zig zag path from ROW on stakeside down into Shooters Clough.
Path from car park up onto StakeSide.
Track to Errwood Hall.
Circuit of hill behind Errwood Hall.
From Errwood Hall up valley to "The Street"
Link from this path up to Foxlow Edge
Shooter's Clough Bridge over Foxlow Edge (2nd half not marked)
Link from Erwood Hall to this path.
Path through the Rhododendrons high up above Erwood Hall on the south side of the valley (not on map)

Goyt Valley: The Street
994766-010760
Footpath beside road from the top car park down almost to the bottom car park.

Lyme Park: Open Access
96-82-
Almost all open, lots of paths not marked on the map.

White Nancy: Access from N
939771 - 940773
Popular but unofficial shortcut straight up the side of the wall.

Kerridge Hill: Ridge Path
943764-945755
ROW round the side is unused - path with stiles is along the ridge

The Roaches: Back Tor - Hanging Stone
989651 - 975653
Path shown on map. Follows ridge, going down past the Hanging Stone.

Danebridge: Link Path
965652 - 968652
Path through the woods joins the river path to the ROW to Hangingstone Farm.

Several reasons, they may be part of an agri-environment scheme, where the access paths and/or areas may are not shown on the OS map, just on the Natural England website.

This is the case in Wales where permissive access done under the Tir Gofal scheme are not marked on OS maps, because they are only open for the duration of the agri-environment scheme.

Perhaps OS maps are too expensive to be re-surveyed every few years? How long is it between OS maps being updated?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silly Big Fella

they may be part of an agri-environment scheme, where the access paths and/or areas may are not shown on the OS map, just on the Natural England website.

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Got a link to a list?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silly Big Fella

Perhaps OS maps are too expensive to be re-surveyed every few years? How long is it between OS maps being updated?

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I've no idea why they don't get marked, many of the ones I listed have been open for 20 years plus! If we each listed a few ones we knew about and then I compiled them into an easily accessible form then hey presto! Problem solved :)

There must be hundreds of them, but only hundreds, not thousands.

I can only tell you what happens in Wales, but try the Natural England website and do some rootin' around.

The Countryside Council for Wales (CCW) website has a map showing permissive access areas in Wales opened up under the Tir Gofal scheme. Look under the 'Interactive Maps section'.

www.ccw.gov.uk

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Originally Posted by Joe

Is anyone else really frustrated by the number of permissive paths on the ground that are missing from OS maps?

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Don't blame Ordnance Survey, it's the Permissive Society that is at fault!;)

Friends of mine have put in a couple of permissive footpaths over their land, linking existing rights of way in a logical way. However, they were done under the Countryside Stewartship Scheme and are therefore only limited to the duration of the scheme, typically 10 years. That is why they do not appear on maps, as far as I am aware...

Thanks SBF.

The Tir Gofal stuff is shown in a scrollable map which is quite good:
http://www.ccw.gov.uk/interactive-ma...ccess-map.aspx
But you have to zoom right in before you see the paths, so they're hard to spot.

For England there's a list of some permissive paths and open areas here:
http://countrywalks.defra.gov.uk/
but you have to choose County and then look at each path separately, so it's a bit of a nightmare to trawl through.

in Bronteland there are a few

Theres a path along the ridge between Oxenhope Stoop and the Pennine Way thay has yellow arrows but is not shown on the OS Map.

Plus, there's a cracking path all the way up to Crow Hill from Ponden near Haworth that goes to the old quarries up there (just below the famous 'lad stone'). The OS took the path off their maps when the quarries closed yet you wouldnt even need a 4x4 to go up it (probably !)

Those ones in Bronteland are open access land now.

I'll content myself for now with trying to complete the permissive paths local to me. First step is checking that defra site.

Well, a couple of hours later I've checked http://countrywalks.defra.gov.uk/ for the South West Peak and found 5 paths, 2 of which are completely useless. Two of the others I've used before but forgot yesterday (having found them by accident), but I have found one new path :-)

Wildboarclough: Cessbank Common Link Path
SJ963686 - SJ959684
Path from Greenway Bridge SW of Shutlingslow SW to the Access Lank at Cessbank Common. Joins together two sets of ROWs.
http://countrywalks.defra.gov.uk/Dis...AG00253841.pdf

Wincle - River Dane path
SJ969663 - SJ967661
Path variation - loops down to visit the stream and back. Did this as a walk with the children
http://countrywalks.defra.gov.uk/Dis...AG00059853.pdf

White Nancy - Alternate Path
SJ941772 - SJ940774
Alternative path to the ROW 100 yards west. Ran this on Monday!
http://countrywalks.defra.gov.uk/Dis...AG00164862.pdf

Lima Farm - Small open access area
948 774
A small field that the ROW passes through is open access, but you can't get anywhere from it!
http://countrywalks.defra.gov.uk/Dis...N=06360017.pdf

Wildboarclough: Blaze Farm
SJ975675
Small closed loop for people to walk off their Ice Creams bought in the tea shop.
It also goes N down to the ROW, but that's of little use either.
http://countrywalks.defra.gov.uk/Dis...AG00178442.pdf

More paths I'd forgotten about - making 25 so far for SW peak:

Goyt Valley: Fernilee Reservoir Path
SK017758 - SK014777
Disused railway all along east side of reservoir, up to the car park at the S end.

Goyt Valley: Below Errwood Reservoir Dam
SK014759 - SK016759
Path under the dam, joining the ROW to the Fernilee Reservoir Path.

Goyt Valley: Pym Chair - Windgather Rocks
SJ995771 - SJ995780
Path alongside the road, joining together the two ROWs.

Another eight:

Gradbach Hill
SK004649 - SJ994655
Waymarked Path through Access Land, then drops to join ROW (access land doesn't quite join up with ROW)

Lyme Park - Entrance at Moorside
SJ956807 - SJ954806
You can carry on along the track past the end of the ROW and get into the park.
There also used to be a path up the side of the park from here to SJ961804 but it's no longer officially open.

Dale Top
SJ961804 - SJ956799
Path up through the quarry, climbs over a stile and along Dale Top to the ROW. Appears to be unofficially allowed.

Macc Forest - Roadside Path
SJ977714 - SJ971713 then SJ972714 - SJ963710
Down S side of road, cross over to join ROW short way, then follow track on map down to road, cross over again for final section.

Macc Forest - North Forest Path
SJ962726 - SJ958717
Follows track on map to join ROW to the road.

Macc Forest
There is an old muddy forest road and a very new forest road below Nessit Hill. There was some signs about them being only for Mountain Bikes though.

Hollins Hill - Access from the south
SK063668? - SK058679?
A waymarked path. Not done this yet, just read about it online (so not 100% sure where it goes)

Wildboarclough - Chest Hollow Access Point
SJ991720
The permissive path runs near the access land but never that close, but they've put in an access gate :-)

The problem I find is that I see a path that I think I should be on - because there is only one shown on the map... Off I trundle and then find myself in the wrong place :o

Maybe I need to go on an FRA navigation course

You have been a busy boy. Maybe you should ask the FRA for a grant for doing all this good work you're doing....:D

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Originally Posted by OneHillWonder

The problem I find is that I see a path that I think I should be on - because there is only one shown on the map... Off I trundle and then find myself in the wrong place :o

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It's so irritating when ROWs are marked in the wrong place or hedges have been cut down. It gets really quite hard to follow them sometimes!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silly Big Fella

You have been a busy boy. Maybe you should ask the FRA for a grant for doing all this good work you're doing....:D

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I can't run at the moment as I've got a cold, so thinking about running is the next best thing :)

I'm still hanging on, hoping that someone'll join in and point out another one I don't know about! If there was some enthusiasm shown I'd mark them on a map or something on a website.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe

It's so irritating when ROWs are marked in the wrong place or hedges have been cut down. It gets really quite hard to follow them sometimes!

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The green dashed lines (or red on 1:50000) show the right of way, the black dashed lines show where a path (not necessarily a right of way) is on the ground. Sometimes these coincide, sometimes they don't.

A path doesn't imply a right of way, and a right of way doesn't imply a path.

It was ever thus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rudolph Hooker

A path doesn't imply a right of way, and a right of way doesn't imply a path.

It was ever thus.

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On the fells that's accepted, but through farmer's fields it's a complete farce when the Right of Way on the map doesn't match up to the stiles and footpath signs. (There's rarely a path on the ground, or black dotted lines on the map).

At the start of the Roaches race the ROW is shown on the wrong side of the hedge, which confused me when I did a recee! There's one SE of Kettleshulme that goes on the wrong side of a stream which had me completely flumoxed for a while, as the ROW as shown went over a barbed wire fence into someone's garden.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silly Big Fella

Perhaps OS maps are too expensive to be re-surveyed every few years? How long is it between OS maps being updated?

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I heard that the last time the OS 1:25s were updated was in the 70s or something?! And that the only maps that are relatively up to date were drawn for races and the like.

Surely it's up to the local authority to put the ROWs on the map, not the OS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A.G

I heard that the last time the OS 1:25s were updated was in the 70s or something?! And that the only maps that are relatively up to date were drawn for races and the like.

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Some of it is being updated because the road I live on is on it, which was only built 8 years ago.

The website shows a bit by me that's never made sense comparing the OS map to the actual ground.

Quote:

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph Hooker
A path doesn't imply a right of way, and a right of way doesn't imply a path.

It was ever thus.

On the fells that's accepted, but through farmer's fields it's a complete farce when the Right of Way on the map doesn't match up to the stiles and footpath signs. (There's rarely a path on the ground, or black dotted lines on the map).

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Around here even the signed footpaths are regularly ploughed up where they go across fields or around the edges. I think the farmer has 2 weeks to re-instate them, but it rarely happens and so the route gets altered.

If a ROW is blocked, ploughed, locked or even overgrown ... report it ... Here :)

Cheers Rudolph.

Reported it last time to council's rights of way chap. He didn't seem much bothered about it, so I'll use that link next time it gets ploughed up.

The local council seem more bothered with closing some footpaths (for our safety :eek:) and opening new wide tracks to allow disabled access (not much fun for running on) than maintaining the existing ones.

A year ago I encountered a footpath blocked off with an arrow pointing right
and that was the only marker anywhere - managed to find a way round.
Contacted Wakefield MDC footpath officer, got a reply he would investigate,
month later footpath was re-opened.

Five more paths I've remembered, so that's 38 I think! I'm not sure about the Taxal Edge one - I'd have gone that way on a training run to check but I'm still down with a cold after two weeks.

Roaches - Forest Wood Alternate Track
SJ985657 - SJ988657
A popular (but not signposted) track descends below the rocky outcrop W of Lud's Church down to the ROW by the river.

Taxal Edge
SJ997788 - SJ997792
Path used on the Whaley Waltz race and I think it's a permissive path.

Chrome Hill
SK076670 - SK064682
Signposted permissive path from road over Chrome Hill, links through to ROW.

Parkhouse Hill Access
SK082669
Short path from ROW to gate onto Access Land

Lyme Park - West Parkgate
SJ949815
Entrance into the park. Open only 8-dusk.

Question about Permissive Foothpaths. Can they be limited to time of day?
According to the OS 25,000 legend the orange dotted line in the image is a permissive path, but is it legal to use that when the park is closed?

Attachment 8743

Anything that still exists as a permissive path, implies its is on private land not included as open access, if that land is closed there is no permissive path.

I find it frustrating that access to a local hill is denied for a race.


SD 672 199 Cartridge Hill on Darwen Moor.


I came up with a great race route but to connect it I needed to cross Cartridge Hill from north to south. It is an established path, even with stiles linking it to the rights of way, but none of the routes on and off the summit cairn are official paths.


I did put it to United Utilities who said no. Only other way is to have runners crossing a road early on.

Part of West Pennines SSSI ''severly disadvantaged area, unfavourable, recovering''. Even if UU had said yes, NE would be required to say no because of the state of the SSSI. Comes back to organised events, we are an easy target to stop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I find it frustrating that access to a local hill is denied for a race.


SD 672 199 Cartridge Hill on Darwen Moor.


I came up with a great race route but to connect it I needed to cross Cartridge Hill from north to south. It is an established path, even with stiles linking it to the rights of way, but none of the routes on and off the summit cairn are official paths.


I did put it to United Utilities who said no. Only other way is to have runners crossing a road early on.

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I really don't understand this, I would have have thought the fact that it is a right of way or not would be irrelevant to the decision to allow a race over the top of the hill. Environmental considerations would be of much highter importance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry

I really don't understand this, I would have have thought the fact that it is a right of way or not would be irrelevant to the decision to allow a race over the top of the hill. Environmental considerations would be of much highter importance

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Absolutely Pat. I'm not sure if you are familiar with Darwen Moor but there aren't any issues involved in a small race passing over once a year when there are currently walkers, runners, mountain bikers and even quad bikes at times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

not sure if you are familiar with Darwen Moor .

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Darwen Tower area? If so, I went over it on the Red Rose 50 back in September, by far the most enjoyable part of the event.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry

Darwen Tower area? If so, I went over it on the Red Rose 50 back in September, by far the most enjoyable part of the event.

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yes, the area from Tower to Cadshaws would form part of the return section of my route but the other way to which you went in the RR50.

The moor has a lot of clear, established tracks and the races up there take place mostly on them. I'm not sure if they all apply for a UU permit but the process certainly got more onerous in the few years I was hosting up there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

yes, the area from Tower to Cadshaws would form part of the return section of my route but the other way to which you went in the RR50.

The moor has a lot of clear, established tracks and the races up there take place mostly on them. I'm not sure if they all apply for a UU permit but the process certainly got more onerous in the few years I was hosting up there.

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Advice on Government Website
THE 20 YEAR RULE WOULD PROBABLY GIVE SOME REASSURANCE
You have the right to access some land for walking or certain other leisure activities.
You can:
use public roads and pavements or public rights of way, for example footpaths or bridleways
use your right to roam on open access land including mountains, moors, heaths, downs, common land and some land around the England Coast Path
If neither of these apply, you may still be able to access private land if:
the land was used as a public right of way in the past - check old maps and documents
the land was accessed by the public for at least 20 years and nobody has asked them to stop
the landowner has given permission (‘permissive access’)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris K

Part of West Pennines SSSI ''severly disadvantaged area, unfavourable, recovering''. Even if UU had said yes, NE would be required to say no because of the state of the SSSI. Comes back to organised events, we are an easy target to stop.

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Still comes back to 'organised events'being an easy target to stop using the CRoW Act. Events may have taken place without the landowner knowing, until afterwards, making it even harder to get permissions in the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe

It's so irritating when ROWs are marked in the wrong place or hedges have been cut down. It gets really quite hard to follow them sometimes!



I can't run at the moment as I've got a cold, so thinking about running is the next best thing :)

I'm still hanging on, hoping that someone'll join in and point out another one I don't know about! If there was some enthusiasm shown I'd mark them on a map or something on a website.

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Hi Joe,
Would be great to have them marked up on a map. Did you get around to it or put them on the open street maps?
cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asutton709

Hi Joe,
Would be great to have them marked up on a map. Did you get around to it or put them on the open street maps?
cheers

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I didn't - but I accidentally stumbled on this thread when searching for concession paths as I've just found a new local one I never knew existed! It goes along the ridge between Sponds Hill and Shining Tor - from Charles Head south. That path *is* on Open Street Map.