Worn out knee cartilage..

Sidelined at moment whilst recovering from knee arthroscopy.Had patellar chondromalacia/patellofemoral joint pain and effusion intermittent, but worsening over last 8 years.Relatively sudden deterioration last October.Stopped running, as pain at lateral patella with every step.Rest,conservative rehab followed,but everything got worse.Op finding on Weds. was a 1cm diameter hole(down to subchondral bone) under lateral facet of patella.....i.e I've managed to wear away 5mm cartilage.Gone forever.:eek:
In my defence, I would say that most of my running has been relatively painfree over the years.I've averaged about 20 miles/week, or equivalent training, over 10 years, and also go rock, ice,Scottish winter and alpine climbing very regularly.Occasional rucsac-humping mountainous backpacking.For work I'm a rural vet surgeon, so constantly on feet(and knees) wrestling with unwilling large patients.
I've no intention of stopping anything! I'm 42, and want to continue for another 15-20 years,minimum.
No hiding from medical fact that if I don't apply my knowledge and common sense to the usual fellrunners' "Carry on regardless...",then I won't be going far for very long:(:(
Just wonder if there's anyone else out there who's either been through the same thing, or is a health professional who runs,whose treated anyone like me?
I'm only interested in what running/climbing has been managed,longterm, and whether patellofemoral arthritis has set in, big time.
Got a superb consultant, so don't need treatment/rehab advice.
This is quite a common runners problem, and I'm sure there's plenty of lunatics like myself that don't want to take it lying down!!:D
Your histories,please,folks?

Ive had three cartlidge trims on right knee and crutiate ligament rupture.also one trim on left knee .I keep going but sometimes think until when.If my knee is hurting tend to do some cycling,as for long term who knows.
There doesnt seem to be many runners that dont have some injury ,but like you say we just run through it.
Im forty and not ready to stop yet,keeps my sanity as well as the weight off.
Not much help but thats my experience ,hope its some help.....

Thanks v. much,Ow! Sounds as if you're doing pretty well in the circumstances.This kind of feedback is invaluable,partly because clinical findings don't always match capabilities- some dogs have awful hip x-rays, but still get round well, others seem to have a mild problem at x-ray, but suffer more severe lameness;also, we fellrunners have somewhat different activity levels and expectations from our joints than the average population-it's great to hear you haven't been forced to give up by your joints.Cheered me up- I was trying to face harsh reality head-on,but really I'm out to get some real perspective on things.Happy running!:)

My dad has had a cartlidge op on each knee since the age of about 50ish. Reality is that having run mostly road since the age of about 16 his knees are shot. He's very mobile, but hasn't run since his mid 50's.

He asked one of his consultants about cartlidge replacements, but was told that they're working on it, but it's a long way off being available. He's 74 now, so I guess things may have moved on in the intervening 20 years.

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Originally Posted by weak-at-knee

Sidelined at moment whilst recovering from knee arthroscopy.Had patellar chondromalacia/patellofemoral joint pain and effusion intermittent, but worsening over last 8 years.Relatively sudden deterioration last October.Stopped running, as pain at lateral patella with every step.Rest,conservative rehab followed,but everything got worse.Op finding on Weds. was a 1cm diameter hole(down to subchondral bone) under lateral facet of patella.....i.e I've managed to wear away 5mm cartilage.Gone forever.:eek:
In my defence, I would say that most of my running has been relatively painfree over the years.I've averaged about 20 miles/week, or equivalent training, over 10 years, and also go rock, ice,Scottish winter and alpine climbing very regularly.Occasional rucsac-humping mountainous backpacking.For work I'm a rural vet surgeon, so constantly on feet(and knees) wrestling with unwilling large patients.
I've no intention of stopping anything! I'm 42, and want to continue for another 15-20 years,minimum.
No hiding from medical fact that if I don't apply my knowledge and common sense to the usual fellrunners' "Carry on regardless...",then I won't be going far for very long:(:(
Just wonder if there's anyone else out there who's either been through the same thing, or is a health professional who runs,whose treated anyone like me?
I'm only interested in what running/climbing has been managed,longterm, and whether patellofemoral arthritis has set in, big time.
Got a superb consultant, so don't need treatment/rehab advice.
This is quite a common runners problem, and I'm sure there's plenty of lunatics like myself that don't want to take it lying down!!:D
Your histories,please,folks?

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20 miles a week is hardly enough to suggest this has been the reason for the knee problem.
Many many competative and non competative runners log a lot more miles than that and do not have knee problems.
You say you do not require re hab advise i would argue that is just what you do need.
I have undergone cartliage operations on both knees and have recovered well enough to run and race well but it was only when i found out that i had slight pronation problems and changed from a cushioned to a support shoe that i could run with any regularity.

In reply to Dominion: Thanks for telling me about your dad's experience.Glad to hear he's still v. mobile without knee replacements.From what I've researched myself,seems cartilage replacement research has moved on lots,but the surgery and rehab are complex.Results are fair for femoral cartilage defects in young athletes - results deteriorate significantly if you're over 35-45;i.e not much hope for most of us yet.I'm wondering if he wore out or tore his menisci - the c shaped fibrocartilage cushions between femur and tibia.My prob. is a hyaline cartilage defect under patella -prob caused by an abnormal lateral tracking of the patella, tho' I believe the foot on the affected side does pronate a bit under heavy load (20-30kg rucsacs).The knee is amazingly complex.I asked on the forum just to see how many of us fellrunners were running on- or not, with cartilage probs.I'm trying not to fill the website with clinical knee stuff-because I could easily do that single-handedly - and I don't consider that I know that much! Your dad hasn't missed out on any relevant new technology though! Thanks again!

In reply to A P E Knott: Thanks for sharing your knee probs and it's good to hear you're running still! Don't worry, I'm doing rehab! Didn't want advice on this as I know that there's several medical/surgical specialist lifetime's worth of info on human knees! Much of it provides for years of debating between surgeons,physios etc.My previous level of knowledge was as a veterinary surgeon,but it's deepening by the minute!In my reply to Dominion you'll see a bit about what my own prob. is. I could write several pages just on patellofemoral joint probs., but I want to try to spare everyone from that! My other half runs and he's sick of my knee!
I'm particularly interested in the longterm findings of fellrunners with patellofemoral chondral defects.It's actually more common in females - forgot to say I was! -but as we're a smaller population to survey,i'm interested in bloke's knees too - I don't want to be sexist! Thanks again.By the way, I'm not going to get running again until I've had a gait analysis and got a proper pair of orthotics- been using off the shelf ones/support shoes for a while.

This is not great reading for someone who has had Runners Knee/ITB trouble for about 15months now and spends more time stretching and strengthening than he does running.

It quite scary that this thread has appeared at the time that I have decided to just manage it and get on with things. I'm in the mind set now that this is just a niggle that I will carry and may hopefully go away. I was shocked that you have tried to manage this type of thing for about 8 years and now it has led to cartlidge trimmings etc.

Is it worth me going down this road just for the sake of being a middle of the pack runner.

Jamie

Just out of interest Jamie, does the stretching seem to help? I've had conflicting advice on stretching of IT band/glutes area. And I don't seem to have seen any difference by doing it or not doing it. Was talking to a pro athlete a couple of days ago and although he's a road runner, he advised me to only stretches the front and back muscles. I've been hindered by IT trouble for years and doubt i'll do another marathon unless I can rid myself of it.

Hi Lieth,

I find if I can really keep on top of the stretching and strengthening ie everyday few times a day it really helps. It just so difficult to find the time to do it.

Wierd thing is, say I do a bit more running in a week. No long distance just more short runs (3miles) and build up slowly the first few are painful then it seems to improve. If I layoff for a few days things seem to tighten up and it comes back.

Im certainly not planning any long races this year, short and sweet but frequent for me.

It does seem to come and go though.

Cheers

To NotOnUrHelly: Sorry to scare you! Runners Knee and ITB probs are 2 different conditions.Runners knee is pain around kneecap.I've only ever had one twang from my ITB.They're only linked in that the ITB inserts partly on outside of kneecap,so if tight,can contribute to runners knee,i.e kneecap pain.Hope this makes you feel better!
Right now I'd just encourage anyone with knee probs to find a good running physio and try and get to root of any problem that is persistent,rather than living with it.
I've now started with a good physio and am learning loads more about the delicate balance of various quad.,hamstring and hip musculature, and ITB.
Seems that VMO strengthening/balancing/firing exercises are going to be the new sex for me for the next 6-12 months:rolleyes:
No running at all,no hillwalking,no climbing:eek:
Best excuse in world to buy new bike though:)
Determined plan is to return to mountainous terrain in 12-18m symptom free,rather than degenerating into a swollen sore arthritic heap.Seems this is in the balance;but I enjoy a good challenge.I'll be there!;)weak-at-knee.

No Hillwalking, Running or Climbing.

Why not have a go at canoeing its great fun, 8 months practise and Im up and paddling doing 5k races etc. Still a bit wobbly like but have managed to survive a full winter of night time paddling with falling into icy waters. I have just got April high winds to contend with now.

I'm now got a race calendar of fell race and canoe races.
:confused:

Last year everything seemed to go belly up. Tore the meniscus in my right knee a couple of days after doing the Howarth Hobble, probably more timing than anything else, it could have gone halfway during the race. Went to physio within a couple of days having done no more running - diagnosis was general wear and tear, i.e. you are a fat old git! Didn't go for arthroscopy but had a cortisone injection followed by a month of doing nothing: "Can I go cycling?" "No!", "Can I go climbing?" "No!", "Can I ...?" "No! Just potter round the house doing as little as possible" Fortunately it coincided with the arrival of the monsoon so it wasn't too bad. It then took a couple of months of very gradually increasing mileage and gradient to get things going again.

Then in November my left knee began to play up. Off to physio again, taking a medical report from when I was run over and hit on the left knee some fifteen years ago. This time it's arthritis but the old injuries make him wonder how I've managed to keep moving (I didn't think they were that bad at the time!).

So now, rather than high mileage I try and train smarter - hill reps and the like along with steady warm up runs and cool downs. It's made a difference and probably should have done it years ago. Definitely don't like running on roads anymore and avoid wherever possible and running downhill is more an exercise in damage limitation. With luck I'll have a few more years of running in me but it's as much a case of managing things rather than just going and doing stuff and hang the consequences.

It took almost eighteen months from my last arthroscopy to be able to train
probably because by "running through the pain barrier" on an already painful knee I had trashed the articular cartilage too.
It went with a pop....***ouch***

I tried several times to start training in the year
after the arthroscopy but nature told me I wasnt ready,
It then took another 18 months, to get fit - and start running
sensible times.

I tempted fate by thinking of trading the name "alwaysinjured" for "nearlyalwaysinjured"

Put my foot down a rabbit hole on blencathra. in Nov 2007
I carried on , my ankle could not. Something had to give
in the middle ***ouch 2***.

Various compensation injuries - calf, achilles caused by
the damage to the ankle. Finally other knee got progressively worse. so stopped training for several months tried to come back several times and failed . Tried to come back in jan 2009
on light training after 9 month layoff when knee went with a "pop"...struggling to walk now, let alone run.

Went through pre-op yesterday for another arthroscopy in the
next couple of months.

May not be back at all this time.

The surgeon tells me I have arthritis in the knee: reckons it has been there some time.


Been out for 6 of the last 10 years.

Think the word "injury" should be reserved for anything that keeps you out for 12 consecutive months. Anything else is just a niggle!!

Sorry folks working away and living in a wifi and dial-up hole(not recommended but peaceful).Tried to post at work one evening but system crashed and remembered had 2 spuds cremating in oven at accommodation!
Not on yer helly:Mmm.Like idea of whitewater but not rolling.Bit of wimp when comes to be being suspended upside down whilst suffocating.Think will improve front crawl breathing first!Like Canadian canoeing and rowing tho', so thanks for idea!
Bob senior:After checking you're not Bob-the-Member(relief):Yes, you and Always injured have got me convinced that quality lower impact training will be only way to go, also being selective about races.Pity,'cos carrying on regardless and hanging consequences so much more fun!Want to get into the mountains without hobbling in 20 years, though,more than need gratuitous descents(she says, somewhat reluctantly).
Always Injured:Firstly I wish you all the best for your next arthroscopy.I admire your perseverence through so many setbacks.Can't help noticing that our strength becomes our weakness when injured!Hope your surgeon can offer you some improvement.Then I guess you'll have to change your perspective.Think there's a pattern developing here!
My knee is recovering well post-op.Have excellent knee surgeon and physio.Want to repay their efforts and give the joint best possible chance to recover as far as it can(which will be limited).Then I'll just be choosey with what I do/how much and savour it.Adapt the rest of my life to overcome the weak knee, so I can still do what I really want.Simple on a computer...if I lose this post before it posts, ther'll be no smilie...:)

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

It took almost eighteen months from my last arthroscopy to be able to train
probably because by "running through the pain barrier" on an already painful knee I had trashed the articular cartilage too.
It went with a pop....***ouch***

I tried several times to start training in the year
after the arthroscopy but nature told me I wasnt ready,
It then took another 18 months, to get fit - and start running
sensible times.

I tempted fate by thinking of trading the name "alwaysinjured" for "nearlyalwaysinjured"

Put my foot down a rabbit hole on blencathra. in Nov 2007
I carried on , my ankle could not. Something had to give
in the middle ***ouch 2***.

Various compensation injuries - calf, achilles caused by
the damage to the ankle. Finally other knee got progressively worse. so stopped training for several months tried to come back several times and failed . Tried to come back in jan 2009
on light training after 9 month layoff when knee went with a "pop"...struggling to walk now, let alone run.

Went through pre-op yesterday for another arthroscopy in the
next couple of months.

May not be back at all this time.

The surgeon tells me I have arthritis in the knee: reckons it has been there some time.


Been out for 6 of the last 10 years.

Think the word "injury" should be reserved for anything that keeps you out for 12 consecutive months. Anything else is just a niggle!!

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Im amazed.

Just 10 days from knee surgery where they discovered a meniscus in tatters arthritic growth and several square inches of missing articular cartilage

I am already stepping over boxes, walking without sticks, I even trotted up stairs..

So maybe back on the fells walking in a month or so...

Yippee....

But how the f+ck did joan benoit, win an olympic marathon 3 weeks after knee arthroscopy?

Nihil Illigetemae Carborundum

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Originally Posted by NotOnUrHelly

This is not great reading for someone who has had Runners Knee/ITB trouble for about 15months now and spends more time stretching and strengthening than he does running.

It quite scary that this thread has appeared at the time that I have decided to just manage it and get on with things. I'm in the mind set now that this is just a niggle that I will carry and may hopefully go away. I was shocked that you have tried to manage this type of thing for about 8 years and now it has led to cartlidge trimmings etc.

Is it worth me going down this road just for the sake of being a middle of the pack runner.

Jamie

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Jamie - your story is my story. :)

Good to hear you're on the mend,Always Injured!
'Tis 13 weeks post arthroscopy for me now- just back from first ever non-climbing trip to Canadian Rockies (booked before injured!).Took road bike and wetsuit and saw it from different viewpoint! Alpine-type road descents were great:)Lakes were a little chilly - couldn't put my head in-GASP!- some still frozen over - I avoided swimming in these!!...worst bit was 2 weeks in an RV with the inlaws...'tho I'm weak-at-knee, apparently I've got arms like a gorilla!!:D_as a girl, I'd add that i'm proud, rather than insulted,as intended, by this- also that they're not so hairy..:o
Would add that I 'accidentally' walked up a couple of 7500' peaks.This of course was as flat walking as possible...hopped down the first, with a bit of odd shuffling with a ski pole on the scree- thus enabling me to have delayed muscle soreness in my good leg quad for the next 2 days!! How blissful to get back to that feeling!! The second involved some decadent post-holing thro' snow on the ascent, so did the decent thing for the knee and caught cable car down.Walked about 40 miles over the 2 weeks. Sat on a-se this week to let knee recover before return to work next, and normal safe rehab for the next 6 weeks - before hopefully a French alpine cycle trip.Now keep up the physio visits as a sort of straight-jacket to stop me overdoing it.
Not bad considering ascended a Corbett last Christmas in good conditions and nearly needed a zimmer! I'd say knee only 60% of what it needs to be for return to alpine and rock climbing, 40% for fellrace descents, and still can't even run across road without pain. Have at least 3 more months of being good...back to bike & pool! Good to test things 'tho.Day-to-day knee is 85% now.Goes to show how much more we demand of our joints than the average punter!
NB Paula Radcliffe says in her book that she had arthroscopy for subtotal thickness patellar cartilage damage at one time, and it doesn't seemed to have slowed her down! It's not the arthroscopy but the damage that makes the biggest difference to recovery times isn't it? Plus the fitness/motivation of the patient? The physio exercises are important.So is not having too long a delay before surgery so you don't waste away! So is having a good surgeon and physio - and you need to like these people too, because it's hard to be motivated if you're depressed/fed up.I've now added a podiatrist to the care team... and I have to really really stretch my hamstrings.Bet I have the tightest hamstrings in fellrunning! Not good.
Good luck with the onward recovery Always Injured! Keep us posted!

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Originally Posted by weak-at-knee

.Goes to show how much more we demand of our joints than the average punter!

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Oh no, I've been rumbled :eek:

Apologies for reviving this long thread- but there's loads of knee injuries listed at present,so this history may interest a few people and act as a cautionary tale!

4.5mths post surgery did 10 days cycling in Alps,about 600miles over 9 tour de france cols, both ways.Pain-free (& fun!).At 5 and 7m did a couple of cyclosportives.

At 6m I was allowed to try to run, so did 4 miles- but 70% pain still there.

Revisit to surgeon led to fresh MRI scans of injured and also uninjured(but slightly symptomatic in past under heavy load) knee.Bad news- injured knee has hardly regenerated any cartilage, and other knee is nearly as bad.This was the worst case scenario come true. Full thickness chondral defects under kneecap have a poor prognosis, but we were all acting/thinking positive, post-surgery.

Options now:
1. Curtail activities to level of so-called normal person, get a more sedentary career, and wait for the inevitable arthritis and partial then full knee replacements in 10 years or so.(I'm 42 now). As far as I,and I'm pretty sure most of you,go, this appeals as much as a coffin!:eek:
2.Have multiple surgeries to both knees, involving cartilage grafts. Total rehab. time to what I'D regard as normal activities.is 3.5yrs, with about 65% success rate for each knee.For a year, on/off, I'd be on crutches. This could give me 10+ years of further sport before I face the arthritis issue again, by which time stem cell therapy might be more reliable.

My surgeon is referring me to one of the best UK centres for option 2, to see what they think.This is my favoured option.I'll keep you posted!

I've kept fit cycling and am going to upgrade to a racy Italian custom-build to help me keep off the half stone I've managed to lose despite no running.Going to rethink career options to challenge myself mentally, saving my knees for alpinism, competitive road cycling, and, I hope, the occasional run.Can still do it! Did 4 miles on flat soft trail this week -last 3 of which were superb- but doing this regularly would quickly leave me with a permanently swollen painful knee and no work.

My knees are not deformed.I sought help 8 years ago, but patellofemoral pain syndrome/chondromalacia was diagnosed with a good prognosis, instead of cartilage thinning leading to eventual chondral defect- bad prognosis.Physio, rest and orthotics might have helped back then (I overpronate), but were not suggested.This is a difficult area- symptoms are similar and articular cartilage surgery is in its infancy.This time around I went to a different surgeon.

As a warning, if you have symptoms of patellofemoral pain, seek professional help.Follow recommendations.If you get recurrent swelling/aching- mine was very intermittent and only occurred under heavy loads, and wasn't a big deal, to be honest- take it v. seriously and seek more help from another professional source, until you get to the bottom of the problem- hopefully before you get to the base of your cartilage!

I'm going to follow Dean Karnazes- "Run if you can, walk if you must, even crawl if you have to (though that might be sorer for me!)- but never ever give up!":)- Well, not permanently, anyway!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by weak-at-knee

As a warning, if you have symptoms of patellofemoral pain, seek professional help.Follow recommendations.If you get recurrent swelling/aching- mine was very intermittent and only occurred under heavy loads, and wasn't a big deal, to be honest- take it v. seriously and seek more help from another professional source, until you get to the bottom of the problem- hopefully before you get to the base of your cartilage!

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After 2 years of knee pain, a stop/start comeback to fell running and lots of phyio, stretching and strengthening. Im now going to arrange for a scan i think.

Not good reading and it sounds like what you felt 8 years ago is how I feel now.

Jamie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NotOnUrHelly

After 2 years of knee pain, a stop/start comeback to fell running and lots of phyio, stretching and strengthening. Im now going to arrange for a scan i think.

Not good reading and it sounds like what you felt 8 years ago is how I feel now.

Jamie

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Grim reading Jamie. Very best of luck mate

how are yours knees these days pal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NotOnUrHelly

how are yours knees these days pal

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They're not perfect but are a million times better than they were summer of 2008. It's a bit random. Sometimes after a long hilly run they're fine but they were sore after Burnsall. I'll be intersted to see how they cope in New Year with increased time on feet but more importantly ascent and descent. In fairness I've spent a lot of time doing squats etc to build up my quads in the last eighteen months or so and will continue on ongoing basis

4 knee ops (3 left,1 right) all before the age of 22.All cartilage trims.
iirc you have 4 knuckles of cartilage on each knee,so if one has worn down doesn't mean you have none left.
I have a friend who was part of an NHS team developing a way of growing cartilage and attaching it to the trimmed cartilage you have had operated on.This was state of the art stuff that would have been a first in this field.However he had to leave as his 9k a year wage was not paying the bills.Despite good progress the funding was pulled and it longer exists.:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NotOnUrHelly

After 2 years of knee pain, a stop/start comeback to fell running and lots of phyio, stretching and strengthening. Im now going to arrange for a scan i think.

Not good reading and it sounds like what you felt 8 years ago is how I feel now.

Jamie

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Any news Jamie?

Not enquired yet pal,

I have no leave at work and dont want to take numerous appointments off as sick. Ill hang fire and keep going with physio.

Had a big week of doing my physio exercises 25mins twice a day everyday and knee is quiet sore. Am I doing something wrong folks.

Im good though pal, getting plenty of exercise in the pool and in my canoe. I have decided cycling is not working for me, it was fine whilst out riding but very painful for a few days after. I only did an hour Uhm :mad:

Im taking heed of Weak-at-knees advice and I'm going to keep cracking on with exercises. Even it it takes till april when the short evening road races start. Is something to aim for eh.

Are you at David Staff this weekend matey?

Speak soon

Jamie

Have only just seen this thread, but it may be of some comfort to those who have been suffering that I had an arthroscopy 20years ago after 30 years of running up to 180 miles a week which revealed a hole in the patella and femoral cartilege worn to the bone. Knee replacement was discussed, but I decide against it, started taking Glucosamine (before it was freely available to the general public) and started running again. As long as I didn't do more than an hour about three times a week the level of pain was well worth the pleasure I got from running. And now, 20 years later, I'm still taking the Glucosamine ( now with Chondroitin) and the level of pain is no worse. I've also managed to race sparingly - and I'm sure my age group rivals would admit - fairly successfully.

I'm 53 and have been running between 25 to 35 miles a week for the last 25 years - and for the last 15 years most of it off road/fells. It has been a massive part of my life.
I had two cartilage operations on my left knee about 18 years ago and one on my right 11 years ago, but my knees were reasonably OK until around three years ago when I started to have intermittent problems with my left knee. I had a scan which was inconclusive and decided against an athroscopy at the time.
I had a good first 9 months last year - including the Three Peaks Race but in September started to get more pain in the knee and went back to see the consultant. I went in hoping that it was more cartilage trouble that he could sort out or that I would need some general 'clean-up', but he is X-Rayed and said I needed to stop running straightaway as I had worn out the cartilage completely.
I was absolutely gutted by this and still am ! I haven't stopped running but have cut down to twice a week and started mountain biking. I have some pain when I run but its not that bad but I really don't know what to do next. I desperately don't want to give it up - I'm not even sure I can, it has been such a huge part of my life, but I don't want to end up not being able to do anything.
I'm not sure what response I'm seeking to this post - it's the first one I've ever done but I'd be interested in any suggestions.

Not great reading Grandad, especially for someone who has knee aches.

Have you ever thought of other sports, I have started Canoeing, its okay but not fell running. I do race and there is a definate crossover of Fell runners as I have met lots of active or ex runners at canoe races.

Think what i am trying to say is there are other sports, I certainly wont be the medium-high mileage runner I once was, twice a week for me its enough.

Jamie

Im 14 years old , ive had this knee problem for 6 years. Im on co-codamol, and have had an MRI scan but there is nothing they can do. Ive had two lots of PT and all that has done is have me in tears because of the pain. Ive been refarred back to the hos now becuase they think its more than just this knee pain. Ive got a family history of back and knee problems , and they think i may have something wrong with my back now becuase i get pain in my back , which goes into my knees and into my feet and end up wiv pins and needles :(. I can just about manage to get up a flight of stairs without being in pain, its horrible!

Sounds like sciatica. Hope you get it fixed.

I had a case of Osteochondritis dessicans - which means a lump of the joint surface in my knee (left) flaked away. this was in Jan 1993 ( I think)
Arthroscopy to remove the loose lump in April that year.
I then ran some of the best races of my life in the next couple of years
In 1996 my left knee became painful and I had a second arthroscopy to remove scar tissue that had developed after the first problem.
I then had 13 years of trouble free running (knee wise anyway)
Last December the cartlidge in my right knee tore ( for no specific reason I can think of)
I had an arthroscopic repair job.
I've built up gradually and am doing as much as ever, I get the odd twinge in the right knee but I think it will be good long term
Left knee (thats the old injury) has suffered in the process, having taken alot of strain during the acute phase of the right knee tear. I'm a bit more concerned about the left.
But
the thing that makes a big difference to my knees is stretching my back
when I keep it stretched an mobile my knees are good
when I don't they are not so good

I do lots of rotational stretches of the lower back - lie on back knees up to 90' and rotate to the side.
Lie on back, knees up to 90' cross legs, rotate to one side then the other, repeat with legs crossed the other way.
And I do lots of standing stretches - knees very slightly bent, keep spine straight, hands on small of back, rotate forward from hip - do not bend spine.
hold all stretches for 30 seconds
repeat at least twice.

So
yes you can run long term
but look after yourself
keeping you r back loose is important.

Hello all

I ran my first fell race last year and was hoping to do some more this year. Unfortunately I tore some of my articular cartilage a few weeks ago, had an ACL graft on the same knee four years ago. Had the arthscropy to remove the loose bit but this went down to the bone. My consultant drilled some holes in the femur to encorage scar tissue with the hope of some hayline cartilage forming.

First session with the physio last week and she did not rate my chances of any decent running again. Has anyone been affected by a similar injury and been able to race again? I know there is an earlier post about a more chronic problem but the whole area is not affected, just about 2cm squared. It would be great to hear some positive stories but useful also to know about how anyone has reduced their running to cope.

Thanks.

there is me
see post above - when I say some of my best races I mean wins and records.
then there is Angela Mudge, she had the exact same op as you several years ago ( 6 years since I think).
So don't believe your physio - find one who is willing to work with you and help you do what you want, rather than one who can't be bothered and just says forget it.

what can you do ?
You can think about running technique - focus on using your bum muscles more when running up hill, rather than driving with your quads, which puts alot of preasure on your knees.

I know this is an old thread but I have just discovered, after over 25 years as an on and off road runner (40+ miles per week) that I have worn the cartilage on the inside of my right knee away almost to the bone. I have only had intermittent knee problems and usually linked to something specific (like a change in shoes or cycling probelms) although I have had a bit of 'aching' after long runs for years.
I don't know what to do now. The knee specialist I saw said I should just carry on as I am but talked about cartilage replacement in 10 or 15 years. I know I over pronate although the shoes I wear seem to allow me to run pain free. Should I get an assessment for orthotics and carry on running? Should I cut right back? Should I stop running altogether and if so will this mean that I can carry on doing other things?
I am really keen to know what has happened to weak at knee and others since 2009 and grateful for any advice or thoughts

Hello all,

Just read the discussions in this thread and noticed no one has mentioned the use of Knee Supports or Bracers.
Any idea if such supports are indeed useful against pain/further damage to the knee cartilage ?

I had a knee injury more than 20 years ago and in the arthroscopy the doctors found that my cartilage was slightly damaged. Since then, my knee never recovered. I experience bearable pain when running , some post running pain, sensitivity to temp changes etc.

I am now starting to practice for my first Marathon and the pain is there. My concern is not the pain, but the possible damage I might cause to myself. I started reading more about knees and while I can easily find ads for knee supports and braces, I did not find much discussion about the same.

Any thoughts? experience using them? any specific recommendations about what is important to consider?

Thanks,
Ben