Bolts on Broad Stand

I have been asked in my official capacity if BG contenders/support parties are responsible for the recent appearance of bolts on Broad Stand.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Morgan

:confused:Is this a bad or good thing?

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Originally Posted by BGSec

I have been asked in my official capacity if BG contenders/support parties are responsible for the recent appearance of bolts on Broad Stand.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Morgan

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:eek::eek::eek:

they'll be using chalk next

Disgraceful:mad:

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

:confused:Is this a bad or good thing?

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It's a bad thing ToM

I can see no reason for this at all. I can't imagine any climber doing it either.

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Originally Posted by BGSec

I have been asked in my official capacity if BG contenders/support parties are responsible for the recent appearance of bolts on Broad Stand.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Morgan

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I hope it wasn't. :(

Some people really do take the p*** :mad:

Do you know exactly where Morgan?

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

It's a bad thing ToM

I can see no reason for this at all. I can't imagine any climber doing it either.

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What exactly has happened to cause this disgust, can you explain it for a novice

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Do you know exactly where Morgan?

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Here Ian

One below and one above the corner

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Do you know exactly where Morgan?

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I don't Ian.

I was contacted by Stephen Reid at Needle Sports who is one of the FRCC guide book editors who simply asked if I knew if a BG party was responsible.

I'll happily PM you his contract details so you can have a word direct if you want.

I mentioned I was stsrting a thread to see if I could get any info, so he might appear in person.

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

What exactly has happened to cause this disgust, can you explain it for a novice

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Its damage to a natural feature.

You have to drill a hole in the rock to fit the bolt.

It then encourages people who should not be there to attempt, they get scared and then want even better protection, before you know it you have a ladder there instead.

Its a very selfish act.

Thats not a proper way to do things. It should be challenging not deliberately made a doddle. It just encourages inexperience and needless damage to the fells

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Thats not a proper way to do things. It should be challenging not deliberately made a doddle. It just encourages inexperience and needless damage to the fells

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Damage to a particularly famous piece of rock in this case.

Coleridge would be spinning in his grave.

It is inexcusable, be it climber or runner.

Stephen Reid suggested that the position of the bolts does not point to them being placed for rescue purposes. And if they have I assume they would have been chopped afterwards.

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Originally Posted by BGSec

Damage to a particularly famous piece of rock in this case.

Coleridge would be spinning in his grave.

It is inexcusable, be it climber or runner.

Stephen Reid suggested that the position of the bolts does not point to them being placed for rescue purposes. And if they have I assume they would have been chopped afterwards.

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Was it not the first classified grade 3 scramble

On a similar note whilst assisting on a BG only last year a climber friend of mine walked up from Wadale to fix a rope on and assist the runners on Broad stand. He managed under difficult (running water) conditions to fix the rope but when we got to the col he advised us not to use Broad stand and choose another route.(We used the Lords Rake West Wall Traverse route which is probably just as quick)
He was unable to remove the rope the same day because of the conditions despite using the same route as ourselves to the summit and climbing back down to the rope. He had no option but to leave the rope in place and returned early the following day to find the rope had been removed.
There is no place for artificial aids of any kind in our mountains and maybe the rope was removed by someone who shares that view which my friend agrees with although was it simply stolen by someone with no such scruples and wanted the rope for themselves.

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

What exactly has happened to cause this disgust, can you explain it for a novice

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Originally Posted by Baggins

Here Ian

One below and one above the corner

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Originally Posted by Baggins

Its damage to a natural feature.

You have to drill a hole in the rock to fit the bolt.

It then encourages people who should not be there to attempt, they get scared and then want even better protection, before you know it you have a ladder there instead.

Its a very selfish act.

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Thanks Bill for the short answer.:)

Bolting was and is a huge issue all over the country Tom to put a bolt on Broad Stand is the mountain equivalent of bolting Flying Buttress at Stanage. there is absolutly no excuse for it. I can't imagine MR teams using it either although I'm happy to be corrected. We carry spare ropes and Stakes as a last resort. Any lakeland teams want to comment?

This topic will get hot Imagine.:mad:

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Thanks Bill for the short answer.:)

Bolting was and is a huge issue all over the country Tom to put a bolt on Broad Stand is the mountain equivalent of bolting Flying Buttress at Stanage. there is absolutly no excuse for it. I can't imagine MR teams using it either although I'm happy to be corrected. We carry spare ropes and Stakes as a last resort. Any lakeland teams want to comment?

This topic will get hot Imagine.:mad:

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Ive been to stanage. I take it that its much easier to climb when bolting

Looks like its been there from at least 04/01/09

I can't imagine WMR would put bolts in and anyways their last call out at Broad Stand was 16/02/08

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Ive been to stanage. I take it that its much easier to climb when bolting

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Ahh the innocence of youth;)

To put a bolt on a route that has been climbed thousands of times with out such aid on such an historic piece of rock is crass vandalism of mind blowing proportions.

To put a bolt in protects the route and alters it's state. some routes may have ground falls from their crux. if it was done this way by the first person then there is really no excuse to put a bolt there. Place a bolt by the crux and you are just top roping a problem:confused:

If you can't do it with out bolting it don't do it.

It is/was exceptable on sport routes on slate/limestone where routes have no natural features but on a classic never.
Some one feel free to correct me if this has changed.

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Ahh the innocence of youth;)

To put a bolt on a route that has been climbed thousands of times with out such aid on such an historic piece of rock is crass vandalism of mind blowing proportions.

To put a bolt in protects the route and alters it's state. some routes may have ground falls from their crux. if it was done this way by the first person then there is really no excuse to put a bolt there. Place a bolt by the crux and you are just top roping a problem:confused:

If you can't do it with out bolting it don't do it.

It is/was exceptable on sport routes on slate/limestone where routes have no natural features but on a classic never.
Some one feel free to correct me if this has changed.

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Believe it or not i actually understand that

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Originally Posted by Norman Bates

There is no place for artificial aids of any kind in our mountains

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Maybe its time that people attempting the BG alow the extra few minutes to go via Foxes Tarn/Lords Rake as every year ropes get left in place.

On my BG I was going to climb it without ropes but it was too wet so went via Lords Rake, no big deal.

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

It is/was exceptable on sport routes on slate/limestone where routes have no natural features but on a classic never.
Some one feel free to correct me if this has changed.

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Lets not go down that route ;)

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

What exactly has happened to cause this disgust, can you explain it for a novice

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Another way of explaining it is to imagine someone tarmacking the route of a fell race because you might sprain an ankle on the uneven ground.

I can't imagine the Wasdale MRT putting them in (or at least putting them in such an obvious place) since Broad Stand is one of their accident black spots and they are unlikely to want to encourage yet more people there. (There are bolts on Lakeland crags for purposes other than climbing but they are placed discretely and generally don't have the hanger (the bit you'd attach ropes or karabiners to) left in place.

The pity is that the real loser in this instance is the rock as in order to remove the bolts more damage will inevitably be done.

I'm supporting a BG attempt on that leg in a couple of weeks so will check to see what's there.

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Originally Posted by Bob

Another way of explaining it is to imagine someone tarmacking the route of a fell race because you might sprain an ankle on the uneven ground.

I can't imagine the Wasdale MRT putting them in (or at least putting them in such an obvious place) since Broad Stand is one of their accident black spots and they are unlikely to want to encourage yet more people there. (There are bolts on Lakeland crags for purposes other than climbing but they are placed discretely and generally don't have the hanger (the bit you'd attach ropes or karabiners to) left in place.

The pity is that the real loser in this instance is the rock as in order to remove the bolts more damage will inevitably be done.

I'm supporting a BG attempt on that leg in a couple of weeks so will check to see what's there.

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Ah ok
So if the rock is going to get damaged should they not just leave the bolts in?

Putting the bolts in damages the rock!

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Originally Posted by Bob

Putting the bolts in damages the rock!

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So if the rock has been damaged already why further damage it

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

So if the rock has been damaged already why further damage it

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I didn't say it would only that it might ( though I didn't word it exactly like that) - with care and done by someone who knows what they are doing you'd end up with a small scar. Leaving the bolts in would only send the message that it (putting bolts into Lakeland rock for convenience) was an acceptable thing to do, which it most certainly is not.

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Originally Posted by Bob

I didn't say it would only that it might ( though I didn't word it exactly like that) - with care and done by someone who knows what they are doing you'd end up with a small scar. Leaving the bolts in would only send the message that it (putting bolts into Lakeland rock for convenience) was an acceptable thing to do, which it most certainly is not.

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agreed. Is there no way of melting them or something minimising any effect on the landscape ;)

Its all round strange:
you would think that anyone with the knowledge and equipment to bolt it would know better.

I Doubt it.

Hammer them out!!! If this is a fell runner/group then it will REALLY piss the climbing community off as this is a BIG no no!!:eek:

There is good info on various Lakeland MR sites on on to rope this rock anyway!!!

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Originally Posted by Baggins

Maybe its time that people attempting the BG alow the extra few minutes to go via Foxes Tarn/Lords Rake as every year ropes get left in place.

On my BG I was going to climb it without ropes but it was too wet so went via Lords Rake, no big deal.

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Agree entirely Bill.
If you need a rope to get up, or its too wet on the day you should go round.

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Originally Posted by Baggins

Maybe its time that people attempting the BG alow the extra few minutes to go via Foxes Tarn/Lords Rake as every year ropes get left in place.

On my BG I was going to climb it without ropes but it was too wet so went via Lords Rake, no big deal.

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Lords Rake for me anyway, I think its just as quick as messing about, i'm not a climber tho'

Think they should be (carefully) taken out by some-one who knows how to,
and possibly a word in the next fellrunner mag.

Here is a set of pictures showing how to bolt up Broad Stand without using any bolts!

Last Tuesday the 26th I noticed a bolt in place with a mailon attached I had heard that some ropes were in situ, although this was not so, although there were two ropes coiled at the bottom that looked as though they had been cut. Definitely a bad show.

On Monday 25th may i could see from the MR rescue box a black line running out left from the top of fat mans agony around the step and then going up into the corner. Two other ropes were hanging down the tricky corner. I decided to go up that way and after leaving fat man's, there was a bolt set back in the corner. A brand new black rope was attached to this bolt and then ran out left and up and over the tricky corner. At various intervals a loop had been made in the rope to assist whoever had passed this way. I made the move up the corner (sans rope) but didn't bother to investigate what it was attached to at the top. Having been a rock climber in another life i was surprised to see a bolt. I'm used to seeing bolts on welsh slate or on the continent, but not on a Lakeland crag where there is an abundance of natural features (cracks, flakes) to attach ones gear to. In my opinion this rope had been in place that weekend and that weekend only. So possibly placed for a BG attempt. The bolt however looked like it had been there for some time. If this is by a BG'er then they must also have some rock climbing credentials to have knowledge of bolts and placing them. They are probably also fully aware of the ethics of British Trad climbing and that it is a big NO! I'm going that way again on saturday so will have another look with my pair of Inov8 bolt cutters.;)

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Originally Posted by Donkarlo

Last Tuesday the 26th I noticed a bolt in place with a mailon attached I had heard that some ropes were in situ, although this was not so, although there were two ropes coiled at the bottom that looked as though they had been cut. Definitely a bad show.

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Interesting as Mailons are not really used by climbers as part of their normal kit but cavers do use them!!

Not casting aspertions but they should also know better and tend to be climbers also. Fat mans agony has a caving feel to it;)

And black abseil rope gets used by the Army, who I've also seen chucking recruits up Broad Stand (although I don't think the instructors like using ropes, as they enjoy seeing their charges quiver)

It would be interesting to see some pictures of the actual bolts to see what has been placed. It is also of use in what kit to take up to remove them. The use of a maillon is probably indicates that the hanger is of a "plate" type ( http://www.rockclimbing.com/gear/Detailed/2270.html) rather than the bolt being held in by resin (http://www.rockclimbing.com/gear/Detailed/2269.html ) and capable of having a rope threaded through the eye.

I climbed a fair bit in my long gone teenage years and you would have been lynched with your own rope for even knowing how to place a bolt; pegs were for washing and Climber and Rambler was full of discussion about mechanical cams.

If the pre-war lads could get up a route with rope and nailed boots, artificial aid should NEVER be used; if you can't crack a route, train until you can.

I have very much lost my head for heights these days and refuse to use a top rope (personal choice, not a dig at anybody) so for a BG attempt I will loose time. Perhaps on another thread to avoid distraction from THAT BOLT, what do we reckon is the least painful/time wasting alternative?

Note on terminology for those less familiar with climbing kit:-

"Bolt" means an expansion bolt for which a hole has been drilled. Very, very bad as explained above. :mad:

A "peg" or "piton" is hammered into a pre-existing crack. Slightly less bad but still unacceptable here.

In this case (I saw them on Saturday morning):-

There are two bolts, one at the exit to easy ground above the corner and one down below, and a peg a few feet lower than the top bolt.

The bolt are typical petzl-style with stainless hangers, and appear to be well placed.

The peg is slightly archaic looking and has two maillons attached, both rusty. It's quite poorly placed (sticks out a lot) and looks more like a "guide" placement than a main anchor (I wouldn't trust it).

There are some lengths of tatty looking rope in the deep crack behind the lower platform, where you emerge from Fat Mans Agony. Didn't look like black static line though, just ordinary climbing rope - probably abandoned by someone else having an epic.