Beginner - No Ups & Downs

Hi!

First of all, i'd like to say hi to everyone and appologise for this post as i'm sure these questions have been asked may times before.

I, like a few people it would appear (having read their similar posts) would love to fell run but are crippled by their unfortunate geographic location.

I live north of london (near luton) and therefore dont have the "ups and downs" available to make for good training.

My questions are:

1) What do people do for training? (is it as simple as lots of road running and excersing the quads in the gym, or running with weights etc?)

2) Whats the best way to get started?
(My running experiences are currently a few 1/2 marathons and marathons, I also love hiking (Wales and the Lakes), My navigational skills however will need working on)

3) Any general tips would be greatly received and appreciated.

Thanks for your time!

P.S I was in the Lakes over the weekend and saw a good number of fell runnings coming down RedPike at a fair old pace. Well done to all of you, as the weather was awefull.

P.P.S sorry for any typos, gramatical errors,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thof

Hi!

First of all, i'd like to say hi to everyone and appologise for this post as i'm sure these questions have been asked may times before.

I, like a few people it would appear (having read their similar posts) would love to fell run but are crippled by their unfortunate geographic location.

I live north of london (near luton) and therefore dont have the "ups and downs" available to make for good training.

My questions are:

1) What do people do for training? (is it as simple as lots of road running and excersing the quads in the gym, or running with weights etc?)

2) Whats the best way to get started?
(My running experiences are currently a few 1/2 marathons and marathons, I also love hiking (Wales and the Lakes), My navigational skills however will need working on)

3) Any general tips would be greatly received and appreciated.

Thanks for your time!

P.S I was in the Lakes over the weekend and saw a good number of fell runnings coming down RedPike at a fair old pace. Well done to all of you, as the weather was awefull.

P.P.S sorry for any typos, gramatical errors,

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Ive only been doing this for 18 months but il try to help
1) Road running for short speed work, long runs out on the fell
2) Do trail races and short fell races and move up the distance and ascent as you get more experienced
3) Hill reps build up leg strength and make sure you are always enjoying yourself :D

Hi TurboTom!

Thanks for the post and very useful info, so thanks once again and thanks for taking the time to reply.

My general thinking at the moment is to joing a local running club for general excerise (its finely got too lonley running on my own), and then join a fell running club in probably the Peaks (as its only about a 2 hour drive from where i live) and travel up there when i can.

And as you pointed out, start with some small fell runs and build up. I've been thinking of starting for quite a while now, and having seen the people coming down Red Pike (Buttermere, The Lakes) i'm now going to get started.

The only issue at the moment (ignoring the obvious issues surround me living nowhere near a hill / mountain) is finding some fell running footwear available in a UK14. As my road running shoes will obviously not be fit for purpose :)

What training do you undertake yourself?


Tom

Ah your onto my training.
I have done very little since i stopped track running.
A decent summer week last year was

Monday: 1 or 2 mile swim
Tuesday; Club Run
Wednesday; Race
Thursday: Hill reps
Friday: Rest
Saturday; Race or long run
Sunday: Race or long run

That was only maybe 2 months of last year but im getting back upto that level the day i officially leave school. Thursday

thof, I am in a similar position, living in sw London

I got pretty fit last year by taking up british military fitness training - the advantage of that is that as well as raising CV fitness, there's a lot of squats, lunges, tuck jumps, burpees, etc, which really strengthens leg and core muscles. (I reckon good core strength is useful for fell-running.)

Then I take myself off on the train to the North Downs every Saturday morning to get a long hill run in. There are surely hills not far from Luton - it doesn't have to be mountains!

I also do a couple of speed sessions / interval runs in the week to raise the CV fitness.

I find fitness isn't a problem, but there are two areas where lack of fell-time does cost me in races:
a) ankle strength - I've rolled my ankles a couple of times in both races I've entered and that slows you right up, particularly on ....
b) descents, which I have yet to gain confidence and speed on - I reckon I was passed by 40 people on descents towards the end of the Duddon race.

Hope this helps.

hi ZootHornRollo,

thanks for the info, I'm currently running about 10k every other day (with weights) and then a gym swim on saturdays, sundays.

I'm currently missing out on my longer run, but i run for 2 hours at the gym to try and compensate. My main area for improvement will be the navigation side of things i recon.

my 10k (ish) run is usually from work to Finsbury Park station, so its a not flat. But its not providing the incline required to prepare for a large hill.

Are there any fell running clubs in your area?

Thanks for the info once again.

Although I live in Lancashire, I come from Portsmouth and I would love to see people from the South compete well in our sport. Getting to races is the drawback but I don't think training ought to be.

I am absolutely convinced that you don't need a big hill in order to train for fell running; a little hill will do - maybe a hundred and fifty feet climb with a run in, and you run up and down it lots of times. Sometimes put the efforts on the downhill.

My own favorite hill is at Kingley Vale in the South Downs near Chichester.

Chris Smale

As another southerner up north I always find it good to see folk/clubs from down south competing on the fells.

Although not your nearest club but not too far away, Tring running club have an active fell running section while I'm sure I've seen someone from Saffron Striders in recent results.

As for local hills you can't be too far from Ivinghoe beacon area which while obviously not offering the ascents of the peaks northwards its a start!! I also remember stopping off at Therfield Heath near Royston for a surprisingly hilly run en-route to Sussex 3 or 4 years back.

Hi all!

I would just like to say a huge thank you to the people who have replied to my posts and provided their thouughts / views. Working in the IT industry people are usually less forthcoming with useful replies, its appears however that fell runners are happy to provide useful comments.

Its amussing that Portsmouth has been mentioned, I originally grew up in the midlands and moved to Portsmouth to attend uni. Now i find myself working in London so i'm quite restricted on where i can live.

What i'm not restricted is how far i travel at the weekends to race. So my plan of attack is to get some trail running and cross country experience which i can do locally and join a fell running club in the peak district (the closest "ups and downs" available) and get cracking.

How do you all find the navigational aspect of fell running? I've read that you cant use GPS (which makes sense), how have you all found this part of the sport?

Finally found some fell running trainers which will fit (issues with big feet) so waiting for them to come back into stock. Once they arrive I'm going to find a nice gental fell run to break myself in!

Are you guys in the south associated with a fell running club? or do you just enter yourself into races?

I dont intend this to be a one way question / answer post, so if you have any questions for me, please feel free to ask.


Thanks Multiterrainer & Pacifier for your advice on local hills, they are all actually quite close, which is very encouraging.

T

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Originally Posted by thof

My main area for improvement will be the navigation side of things i recon.

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Have you tried orienteering? I got involved with a club when I was at school. It certainly improved my navigational skills and running fitness to boot.

I also don't live near any big hills and never have done. I've found that devising the roughest/toughest cross country courses I can find in my local area has worked as well as anything else.
Running over ploughed fields and chewed up bridlepaths works wonders for strenghthening the ankles in preparation for the rough grass tussocks you'll meet on the fells.

thof - no, not a member of any club at the moment

I have thought about entering one up north, maybe next year ... I am a notherner by birth and upbringing so it'd be a homecoming...

Joining a Peaks club is probably an ideal way for you to get into it though - especially gaining the confidence with navigation, terrain etc.

I had done a fair bit of winter fell-walking and an advanced navigation course, but I'm not totally sure how I'd fare in a race if the weather really came in: there's a difference between walking, when you're warm and dry and have time to moon about and take everything in; and when you're running in a vest and blowing snot all over the place and just want to keep going rather than keep checking the map ...

Obviously, it's a lot more of an issue in long races than the shorter ones.

Doing recces / training runs with more experienced runners is probably the way to go.

Thof seriously don't worry too much - just get into the hills and run (rather than walk) tracks you already know. Bob's your uncle, you're fell running. To get good at it do it more and more often :)

Competing in fell races on the other hand is a different thing from running in the hills. A bit of a generalisation but races are more dangerous because of the massive inclination to sprint down steep boulder strewn slopes but at the same time less dangerous in that they're easier to navigate and harder to get in trouble on (checkpoints and marshalls etc).

Fell running for solitude, beauty and adventure. Fell racing for full blown body cramps, brutal crashes, exhaustion and unbelievable camaradery of sharing a frigging tough but cracking sport together.

Hi ZootHornRollo and Stolly

Thanks for your input, (hope you both had a good day).

My main aim is to compete in races, though this is obivoulsy a long term aim. I'm pretty competitive in nature so its bound to happen sooner or later, so i might as well accept it. The only motivation that gets me running on my own at night is seeing it as training for the next race, if i didnt run races i doubt i'd run at all.

I ran the London marathon this year and the hardest part of that was having to stop due to people randomly stopping in front of me, well to be honest the stopping wasnt difficult, it was more the getting started again which was the issue. Therefore the idea of having to stop and check my map does thrill me, though if its fell run and take a map, or dont fell run, its a no brainer really :-)


I'm now going to find myself a club in the peaks and workout my carbon foot print in getting there once every month or so.

ZootHornRollo, you dont have to worry about racing in the bad weather, surely the bad weather coming in is just a way of motivating you not to let the person in front get too far ahead! :-)


Are you guys pure Fell runners or do you take part in the usual road running events too?

Have a good evening all!

I wouldn't let navigation bother you at all if you're just starting, there are loads of fell races that require no navigation at all because they're well marked out and/or have marshalls ready to point you in the right direction. If you're already capable of running a marathon you won't find yourself hanging way off the back of the pack (as is always a possiblity for myself) so there will be a trail of people to follow anyway. Easiest way is to just get straight in there and sign up for a few races as I did myself this year. Everyone is very friendly and encouraging, it's far nicer than road running! ;)

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Originally Posted by thof

Hi ZootHornRollo and Stolly

The only motivation that gets me running on my own at night is seeing it as training for the next race, if i didnt run races i doubt i'd run at all.

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I feel sorry for you :D. I run the odd race as 'training' for long solo missions into the hills!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thof

I'm now going to find myself a club in the peaks and workout my carbon foot print in getting there once every month or so.

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Hi Thof

I know of at least one Darkpeaker who lives in London. maybe he will car share but I'm not sure how often he comes up.

Hi thof
My daughter lived at Tring for a time and they have a running club that takes part in the FRA relay so that could be your nearest club, not too far away you have the Chiltern Hills and they are good for fell running and I liked run around Tring Park, you do have some lovely country down there( not as good as Yorkshire;)) I do love races, but like Stolly I love just running, it so natural, hope you get going soon.

There's normally a map at the start of races, how good are you at reading the lie of the land? Or you could do what I do and make sure you never get fast enough that you trouble the front end and have nobody to follow. Seriously though, in my experience in the mid-pack of popular shorter/middling races in say the Peak, you'll have no bother navigating.

actually stolly and sloth speak sense - tis best to just get in there

I went in off the deep end a bit with two ALs early in the season so I did a bit of prep to make sure I was ready for it all

Hi All

Sorry for the delay in responding, i've been going through the pain of changing ISPs, so i was consiquently left in "no internet" land for a few days.

Just want to say thanks to all of you for posting your thoughts.

Hope your all well

Tom

Thof, I am coming late to this thread but I can confirm / add a few things.

There is some hilly running in the north eastern part of the Chilterns not far from you - e.g. Dunstable Downs, Ivinghoe Beacon, then slightly further afield at Wendover Woods and from Coombe Hill down to Whiteleaf Hill. I can give you some suggestions for routes - PM me.

Tring Running Club does have a number of fell runners, maybe 12 or 15 in total with a hard core of about 6. As mentioned we normally do the FRA relays and other fell relays and races, mountain marathons etc, but we may be too far from you and too far from the fells to be the right club to join. But don't let me dissuade you from coming along to club runs, you will be made welcome! Dark Peak could be a good fell club to join if you are committed to regular travelling, they seem to have quite a dispersed membership from what I hear. One of our members was a Dark Peak member when living in Sheffield and stayed a 2nd claim member after moving away.

Depends what you want out of a club though. There is massive benefit in joining a local club to go training with, not least having people to train with. You will also find that having people you know to compete against in local races is a big motivation to train harder, go out in bad weather etc. You may not get that by joining Dark Peak or even Tring. If I was you I'd join Fairlands Valley Spartans for training purposes. A road club for sure, but go for the training and the winter cross country league at least. You can still join DPFR for fell running and run for them in races, I doubt FVS are registered for fell running.

About navigation - you can always go and recce a few of the Peak District races, finding your way round will be a good nav exercise. There will doubtless be DPFR people keen to show you round, but that will unfortunately remove any any training value - find your own way first and then get them to show you the racing line! Fell Gazelle mentioned orienteering as a means of improving navigation and I can't agree more. I did this and got hooked on orienteering to the extent I stopped fell racing for several years, but now I have a much healthier O / fell balance :)

Hi Stevie

Thanks for your post, i was thinking of joining the FRA and Dark Peak, though i'll have to take a look at what that actually means travelling wise.

For some reason i hadnt considered Dunstable Downs which is outragously close to where i live, and the other places you mentioned are within 30 miles as well, so which great!

I'm not yet a member of a running club, i work in london so run either at lunch or to the train station in the evening, i then do a "long" run at the weekends as well as gym and swim etc. Though i've come to the conclusion that i'll probably have to join a running club to futher my fitness.

I'm so keen to start, i'm getting a little fustrated as i cant find any fell running trainers which will fit and are in stock.

Would you recommend any fell running kit which isnt obvious, i.e isnt trainers, clothes, compass and map.

Hope your all well!

If you would provide some running routes that would be great, feel free to PM them to me.

Have a good weekend all!

Buff. ;)

Thof, for wide feet Walsh PB Ultras are good, for narrow feet normal PBs. I have narrow feet and I wear Inov8 Mudclaw 270s and 330s and they also seem to suit wider feet too. Some people get heel blisters in new Inov8s, you need to get them moulded to the shape of your foot - a few wet runs normally do the trick. Walsh PB Racers are good for narrow feet too. Search on these forums for footwear advice, there is masses in here. Get yourself along to a race that Pete Bland's van is attending, or to his shop. He stocks a lot of fell shoes.

Kit recommendations - um, not particularly, although Grouse's Buff suggestion is a good one. Just make sure you have adequate kit for the conditions. Hypothermia is the main enemy. The FRA minimum safety kit is a good start.

I'll put a few routes on OS Explore. Presumably you'll be travelling for longer runs so I'll make them 15 to 20 miles or so in length.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thof

I'm so keen to start, i'm getting a little fustrated as i cant find any fell running trainers which will fit and are in stock.

Would you recommend any fell running kit which isnt obvious, i.e isnt trainers, clothes, compass and map.

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run & become at victoria is the best selection of fell and trail shoes I've seen in London. Snow & rock also often stock a few Inov8s, Salamons etc. Likewise Sweatshop.

A good trail shoe will do just to get going, especially in summer conditions... .

Other kit: I can recommend montane windshirts as a great bit of kit that you'll probably end up taking on every run (or walk) outside of summer

In terms of waterproofs, you have a choice: go for the cheapest pac-a-mac style stuff (regatta, eurohike, blacks/millets own-brand, etc), on the basis that you'll only ever use them in emergencies - i.e., they're just to pass the race kit requirements. Or the more expensive lightweight, low-volume stuff, which can double up as good walking gear.

also one of the small Inov8 race pro rucksacks would be great for longer hill runs and recces

I live in Wakefield which is fairly flat and we trained in our local park running up the hill about 35m high from a bandstand through the trees then down the other side to some tennis courts then back up the hill from the tennis courts before dropping back down to the bandstand. So 2 hills of about 100 feet in one circuit which was 3/4 mile long. We built this up until we could run 10 circuits in under an hour.
That was all the hill training we did before we ran the Ben Nevis race and we finished reasonably well up the field (all sub 2hrs 30mins on the old longer course)
http://gb.mapometer.com/en/running/route_188197.html

For navigation, as someone has mentioned, try orienteering - some orienteering courses are over terrain as difficult underfoot as anything you'll get in most fell races
here are a couple of southern based clubs
http://www.sloweb.org.uk/
http://www.londonorienteering.co.uk/

Hi All

Hope you're all well and once again thanks for all of your input.

I've got myself a shopping list together ready for when pay day arrives :-) and i've even sent my form off to the FRA.

I'll most likely bump into some of you when i get to my first race, i'll probably be the one running the wrong way :-)

Hope your all having a good day.

Tom

thof,

This is a 'no brainer'; join Tring Runners and get into the Wendover Hills. Imaginative use of an OS map and those hills stretch over as far as High Wycombe and, in the other direction, Chesham - doubt many of us can out distance that without a support team.
Other benefit of Tring Runners is that the ladies section are stunners - not that you care being in IT and all:(

Lola you must have been a Tring member at some point? It's true for new members we seem to get twice as many women as men. As for stunners, me being happily married and all that, I can't say that I've noticed...

Thof, the orienteering clubs that Epocian mentions may not be ideal for you living in Stevenage, although LOK is north London at least. There is a Herts based club Happy Herts which would be your most local.

I will still put some routes on OS Explore. In the meantime, Lola's advice about the hills around Wendover is good!

Thanks for the input all,

Yes, you are correct Lola. Being in IT i cant actually talk to people of the opposite sex. I am in fact now having to use some sort of high tech computer thing as an intermediary just to cross the IT Geek - female barrier :-)

Though you are right, it is a no-brainer, I was thinking of either Tring Runners or North Herts Road Runners. However Tring is only about 30 miles away and actually mentions fell running on their website (being an IT person, websites obvioulsy play a big part in my decision making process)

My general plan is to start in August as i cant really commit to every wednesday before then.

Thanks Stevie, i look forward to seeing the OSExplore Maps,

Hope you are all well.

Only Me (again)

Disclaimer: I imagine that this question as already been asked, i searched for forum and failed to find the answer, which most likely indicates my poor search ability.

The question: Having utilised the masterful Google now for a good few days, I'm having trouble finding a fell running shoe in a size 14. I have noticed that inov-8 sell trail running shoes in a 14, but it appears no fell running shoes are available in the aforementioned size.

Assuming that someone must have been in a similar situation. I figured somone would be able to point me in the right direction.

Thanks for your time folks!

I'm not trying to be silly here - but if there's no alternative, you might consider running in these astroturf shoes - look like they have a better tread than the size 14 trail running alternative (Inov8 Terrocs) - no idea what they'd be like to run in though.

http://www.walktall.co.uk/nike-brlar...lo-p-3355.html

or for thick mud, maybe conventional turf football boots? Given my very limited fell running experience, I'm happy for someone to point out why this would be a stupid idea. In my school days football boots just had a few round studs which I remember were lethal on the changing room floor (any therefore wouldn't be much use on rock?), but nowadays there seems to be all sorts of molded sole type - some of which look very similar to the Adidas Swoop sole.

thof, if you're shopping for fell or trail shoes online, be mindful it can be a lengthy process and end up no cheaper: I ended up sending back a pair of Mizuno Wave Harriers that were too small, lost the initial P&P (not included in refund) and had to pay P&P on the return. Fell shoes can be sized trickily, they're often narrow.

I came to the conclusion that shopping for shoes is best done in person and I try and support a small independent shop while doing it (Needle, LakesRunner, PB etc).

Hi Skids and ZootHornRollo,

This is the situation, i have no problem shopping locally for fell running shoes, the main issue is that i'm a size UK14 and my personal experience is that all shops only stock upto a 12 for normal trainers, and any shop which has stocked proper fell running trainers have looked at me like i have webbed feet when i say that i need it in a 14.

So at the moment I've taken to looking online for reviews and inspiration when it comes down to fell running shoes which are in a 14 in the hope that when i find something that is fit for purpose and is produced in a size which will fit, i can either order a few pairs online (difference sizes) or go to a physical shop and try them on.

Finding trainers / smart shoes usually presents issues, finding a piar of suitable fell running trainers is proving nearly impossible. But i'm not giving up as this is something i really want to take up as a sport.

Ideally i want to progress to long distance runs within the next 8-12 months, so i'd like a trainer which is suitable for both short and long runs :-)

I'll let you all know when i find this magical trainer!

Hope your all well.

Tom

P.S hope that all makes sense.

have a look in the Equipment bit, there's a chap who hangs about a bit there called Inov8 Insider - who is exactly that - who might be able to help you out on the size 14 thing.

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Originally Posted by thof

i look forward to seeing the OSExplore Maps,

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Thof, have a look at my routes on OS Explore. Hopefully this link will work. Click on "see all". The routes are a bit of a mish mash, as I started playing with OS Explore before I had any ideas about using it in this way, and I can't seem to delete any. At least all the paths I have used are passable. Ideally you need to work out these routes on the Explorer 1:25000 map to go out and run them. You'll find a few places where I've shown a route and none is mapped - there is generally a path there, or it's open runnable land, but with the OS Explore at 1:50000, the line as wide as it is and the high density of paths in certain places you'll need to keep your wits about you. These routes are only a tiny fraction of what is possible in the north Chilterns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thof

I was thinking of either Tring Runners or North Herts Road Runners. However Tring is only about 30 miles away and actually mentions fell running on their website (being an IT person, websites obvioulsy play a big part in my decision making process)

My general plan is to start in August as i cant really commit to every wednesday before then.

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Feel free to join us at Tring any time. This is the time of year to do it, before the evenings get dark and we get the head torches out - don't wait until August if you can help it.

How about these?

http://www.sportsshoes.com/product/ADI3251/?id=364

Adidas Swoops - and they seem to have size 14 1/2 in stock (apparently adidas sizes are small, so you want to go up half a size anyway). They may be described as trail running shoes, but because of the quite agressive sole, I think most people consider them to be more of a fell shoe, but quite a comfy one, so fine for longer runs too. You'll probably find more about them elsewhere on these forums.

May be worth a try, for the sake of risking having to fork out the return postage - I almost got a pair of these when recently looking for my first pair of fell shoes, but my problem (though clearly not as tricky as yours!) is that my feet are very wide with a high instep, and it seems that most fell running shoes are pretty narrow.

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Originally Posted by Stevie

Thof, have a look at my routes on OS Explore. Hopefully this link will work. Click on "see all". The routes are a bit of a mish mash, as I started playing with OS Explore before I had any ideas about using it in this way, and I can't seem to delete any. At least all the paths I have used are passable. Ideally you need to work out these routes on the Explorer 1:25000 map to go out and run them. You'll find a few places where I've shown a route and none is mapped - there is generally a path there, or it's open runnable land, but with the OS Explore at 1:50000, the line as wide as it is and the high density of paths in certain places you'll need to keep your wits about you. These routes are only a tiny fraction of what is possible in the north Chilterns.



Feel free to join us at Tring any time. This is the time of year to do it, before the evenings get dark and we get the head torches out - don't wait until August if you can help it.

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Stevie, You are a STAR! thank you very much!

The only reason that i'm waiting until august is that i'm going on holiday in a week until the end of july. When i turn up at Tring in early August, i;ll make my self known! :-)

Thanks Skids ( Your also a star) for the link, they look like a great idea. I'll grab a pair of 14 1/2 and give them a whirl, if all failes P&P isnt too much of a hit :-)

Thanks for everyones input!

Just need to sort out the rest of my equipment now :-) But dont worry, the rest wont involve so many questions!

Good night everyone

Incombe hole below Steps Hill, west of Ivinghoe Beacon, is a good slope; I've been up and down it a few times

Funnily enough I rarely run up that slope, always take the Ridgeway path up around the lip. I sometimes take on the steep side of Ivinghoe Beacon but only because it's a logical route when climbing from the Icknield Way below.

The other well known "wall" type of slope around here is the steep side of Coombe Hill, below the monument. The Coombe Hill race goes up it, and so do I sometimes. Now that they've opened up Beacon Hill on the Chequers estate that is a good stiff climb, comparable to Incombe Hole. I have looked down on Red Kites on Beacon Hill, barely metres below me, scouring the slope for prey.