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.... that we've contrived to send two neanderthal racist thugs to represent us in Europe. I just can't imagine who could bring themselves to vote for what is effectively a fascist group masquerading as a political party. Weren't any lessons learnt in the 1930's? Saying it's a "protest vote" is no excuse, it makes me feel physically sick.
Not sure where you live but one has been elected from Yorkshire - makes you think about the people around you and if they voted for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikalas
The problem is that on the face of it they appear so plausible, I also think the fact they were first on the ballot paper with a byline of "Working to save British Jobs" helped.
Peak District so, as the North-West region elected one, I probably do know some folks who voted for them and that makes me feel so uneasy. It really worries me that people can't see through the veneer of plausibility and really believe that racism and xenophobia will somehow create jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antisocial
They are also very good about talking about what they perceive to be the problem and whose fault it is without any real solutions or details other than headlines. Nick Griffin was on radio 4 this am, he came across like a whingeing paranoid -"its everybody else's fault!!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by nikalas
The daft thing is that they won two seats whilst getting FEWER votes than last time!
It's not true to say that more people voted BNP - it's a case of a huge increase in voter apathy and the end of mass postal voting.
People need to realise the importance of voting, and that protesting by not voting is plain stupid.
I agree and that's the big problem... the more credence they get as a political party the more air-time and media they'll receive. They can then cash-in on the sorry state of the country and cultivate support simply by pointing out faults, sensationalistic rhetoric and finger pointing.
I know, it's mental! I really had no desire to vote but made myself in an attempt to prevent this happening. I just hope people who "protested by not voting" are feeling suitably guilty today and have learnt a lesson.Quote:
Originally Posted by marty mcfly
There are a few points I'd like to make here.
1. At times this fascist party has been "linked" incorrectly with the Tories (Right Wing) , but it is clear that they are gaining ground in the predominantly white council estates in Northern ex-industrial towns from what would be perceived as traditional Labour areas.
2. UKIP has been unfairly compared to the BNP at times - wrongly in my view. UKIP might be largely a single issue party - pull out of EU - and there are clearly some issues they have with immigration - however they are not linked to race and no more racist than the Australians, USA or Norwegians who all have immigration control.
3. Labour are reaping the rewards for the often demonising of other parties that has taken place in the last 15 years. The traditional and perhaps uneducated voters will no doubt feel they have no other way to vote than BNP as they have had it drummed in them for years that the Tories are the source of all evil.
4. I have some cross party - but socialist leaning friends - who have been out and about campaigning. Not with a Vote for Us agenda - but on a "Do Not Vote for BNP at any cost" agenda.
If anything is likely to draw uneducated protest voters towards the BNP, such negative campaigning has surely contributed.
5. If everyone just ignored them, and didn't fuel the ridiculous hype, then they would slowly disappear in to insignificance.
Surely the way forward is for this rabble to muster the courage to call a general election and at least place in power a government that reflects the current view of the electorate and will not be making a calculation at every announcement as to how the opinion polls will be affected.
I agree with a lot of the above, however if an election were called right now, that would make it more likely the BNP would get a stronger foothold domestically.
So far in my area where they have got council seats the councillors have been shown as inept or been given so little support from their main party that they have withered and died and not been re-lected. I would hope it would be the same if we ever got a BNP MP - but it is not something I would like to risk.
You would have to be pretty vacant minded to even think of voting for the bnp.
They have neither a proper manifesto or any idea about running our country.
BUT
Now the thing they have in there favour is that the current lot who are running the system have f./,..d up BIG time thus allowing voters to start to turn to the minority parties. SO BNP becomes somewhere to TURN to if you like.
Ive talked to lads here who are voting BNP and yes its a different probably slightly uneducated view that are voting for them.
But you cannot change democracy and if democracy means people will or are going to vote BNP then so be it.
Perhaps this is the way for the main parties to get there house in order.
A kick up the arse if you like.
Just highlights the dangers of Proportional Representation over First Past the Post, doesn't it?
More democratic....yes
Fairer....yes
More dangerous....yes
Yes mate i fully agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
Theres a saying i always go by
A little knowledge is dangerous. How true in this case.
Maybe but I would not like to risk itQuote:
Originally Posted by daz h
With the voting system as it is for a General Election, I doubt that any other than the mainstream parties or the odd independant will get in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antisocial
so your happy to plod along like we are doing then?????????Quote:
Originally Posted by Antisocial
What and the other parties don't discriminate for and against certain groups? The labour party have spent the last 13 years making laws that discriminate for homosexuals over heterosexuals, women over men, non whites over whites, disabled over abled, etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikalas
About 8 years ago council workers were fining and confiscating scales from greengrocers who were selling in pounds and ounces. How many middle of the road non-racists spoke up for them? The BNP are only practising the same evil the other political parties have been practising for decades. They want to even up the score, by discriminating against those who have benefited from past discrimination.
In some respects voting for the BNP is more moral than voting for any of the main parties, because at least people can ascertain what the BNP stand for. No one knows what the Tories stand for, except "I'll make it up as I go along." The same goes for the other parties.
We live in a democracy and therefore it's a dog eat dog world. If you don't like it promote ideas that support freedom and individual rights. Only then can you deflect blame to others, until then you're as bad as the BNP.
oooh - get her!Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Working in the disability field I would agree with some of this, however active inclusion can only be achieved by positive descrimination and I suppose that is what the BNP will argue they are doing. However their stated overall purpose is to permanently remove or disadvantage some groups to benefit others not to "even the score". I would ask Chris though - who does stand for freedom and individual rights?
Para 1: This is about removing institutional homophobia, sexism, racism and disablism (is that a word), not discrimination. The way it has been done isn't always the best, but the intention is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Para 2: This is about the Rule of Laws, not race. Oh, and the old "eye for an eye" argument. Nice.
Para 3: How can voting for a party which bases its manifesto on race be more "moral" than voting for any party which doesn't?
Para 4: I agree. Anyone who didn't vote should be ashamed. Anyone who feels really strongly should get involved and promote their own agenda.
Obviously someone did because "after years of wrangling between London and Brussels" they decided to scrap the scheme. I agree with what you are saying about the actual man on the market stall though - it was the council workers being jobsworths.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988521.stm
As a side issue, why are we using the imperial system anyway? I thought my parents generation were meant to be the last ones that had to learn two systems? The metric system is much simpler to use.
Good to see you back CL, I've missed your take on things but unfortunately this latest post doesn't do either you or your intelligence justice. To be honest it reads like a Daily Mail editorial..... you'll be talking about straight bananas next!
Marty has covered most of the bases.
I'm no fan of the current Government, but, as a white, heterosexual, able-bodied male, I don't feel discriminated against.
My biggest problem with the BNP is that senior members (including the leader) have been filmed showing their true colours singing racist songs and expressing offensively right-wing views. Although they may try to present a more palatable public facade, this showed what sort of people they really are and I can't believe people have forgotten/ignored this.
Also, campaigning on the grounds of "they've come over here and taken our jobs etc" has a long history (cheers Adolf!) and is a cheap and easy way to appeal to disgruntled masses. Jobs aren't being "taken" by immigrants etc but they are willing to do the jobs/hours that many "true Brits" won't.
Yes, it is only a couple of MEP's and a council seat here and there, but the Far Right is gaining throughout Europe and it's frankly terrifying. The mainstream parties are to blame to a certain extent with their scrabbling for the common middle ground but people can't be swayed by extreme blame/hate politics. We have to look at history and can't allow ourselves to go down that road yet again.
Finally, not being bothered to vote or "not voting as a protest" is the worst crime and has led to this sorry situation. Hopefully this will be the kick up the backside that people need and won't be replicated in the General Election.
Heathens... I agree, Imperial system is just mad.. come on FRA get with the times km / m!!
The method of proportional representation used in the European elections seems particularly complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
The party with the highest number of votes gets one seat allocated in round 1. For round 2 this party has its vote divided by two. The party with the highest vote in round 2 is then allocated a seat and its vote is divided by two.
If a party which has already won a seat wins another round its vote is divided by the number of seats it has won plus one. This continues until all the seats have been allocated
The BNP are an official political party who were supported by over 120,000 voters in Yorkshire and 130,000 voters in the North West. You might not agree with BNP policy but the large number of people who for whatever reason voted BNP are just as entitled to their opinion as anyone elseQuote:
Originally Posted by nikalas
Perhaps part of the "appeal" of the BNP is that they have a strong, direct message (regardless of whether you agree or feel it's "right" or "wrong") and that will always appeal to some.
Should we be surprised though? What's the alternative? Labour, Tories and Lib Dems all now seem to be mediocre imitations of themselves and, seemingly, standing/supporting/pledging similar things.
And be scrutinised and where appropriate criticised for it - just like anyone elseQuote:
Originally Posted by Richard Head
I have been sitting on the fence watching this thread, but I get the general idea that some of the main stream followers are suggesting that any BMP voters are of inferior intelligence and deserve to be subjected to a (moral) violent attack (kick up the Arse). Is that because they do not conform to your way of thinking? If so, that makes you no different to the aforementioned party of hate.
My area now has one of the BMP Euro MP’s. In an interview on last nights local news the reported did nothing but verbally attack a party representative , if anything, the tone of the whole article was more likely to drum up further support!
As I said, the scrabbling for the middle ground by the mainstream parties has in part led to this... this is how the NF and Le Penn came to prominence in France.Quote:
Originally Posted by jodg
Local politics aside, as well straight bananas, surely the 'lesson from history' argument is a little strained now. Horribly true though it is, the far right is famed for one regime in one country, once; the death toll was horrific and unforgettable but, how many of us went happily on holiday to Spain under Franco? More importantly, how many of us have cheap consumer goods made in China - probably all of us, and how democratic was the 'Cultural Revolution'?
Lets be honest, the BNP candidates won a democratic election but we don't like it, tough, that is democracy; it is not democratic to then try to limit their airtime or distort their message.
Similar thing applies to religion don't you think? The more extremist sects/factions, albeit christian or muslim etc. seem to have much more appeal than the "wishy washy", more conservative parts. Again, due to a powerful and arguably more action-based dogma.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikalas
Agreed. Democracy & debate is the best way. But it's messy, noisy, fragile and we don't always like what we hear or the end result. That's the bit that sticks in the throat sometimes! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Lola
I see your point, Lola, but I'm quite prepared to have double standards on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola
Mainly because the BNP are Nazi scum.
I don't think it can be ever be "a little strained". Extremist/Racist/Nationalist politics have not been limited to one regime in one country. The atrocities in the former Yugoslavia, Somalia etc all stem from the "our country for our colour/race/religion,tribe" mentality.... I agree totally about China etc and no-matter what the political leaning (extreme left or right) good things won't come of either... communism is as dangerous as fascism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola
Yes, the BNP did win as part of a democratic process and as such they do deserve as much airtime etc as any other party. However, I can't help thinking/hoping that if people had been reminded of their true colours (BBC Panorama documentary etc) then they would have though twice about crossing that box.
Funny isn't it? In times of relative prosperity etc these sorts of parties seldom get a look in. Once times get hard (i.e. jobs at risk etc) it's time to get the foreigners out...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mud
Don't we learn anything from history?
The "kick up the arse" referred to the people who didn't bother to vote or thought not voting was a protest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trog
You've just highlighted what I tried to say in an earlier post.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikalas
Your flippant remark at the Daily Mail is in line with the comments made by many socialist politicians that have tried to demonise parties such as the Tories and UKIP and in some respect brought the BNP votes.
The Daily Mail may be right wing, but it isn't racist or it would have been closed down. The law would not allow it to operate.
surely if anyone wanted to make a protest then it would be better not to vote than give the vote to the BNP. i cannot see why someone should be forced to vote if they cannot see anyone they want to vote for. just going to vote for a minor party as a protest surely has the opposite effect if the minor party then gets voted in.
Lucky You!Quote:
Originally Posted by nikalas
As a similar male I do feel discriminated against.
I work hard, pay proportionately more tax than most, do voluntary work, abide the law and respect all others.
I have no NHS dental care, I have had to put my 2 kids in to private education as I was offered a school that was not even an option - and given no leave to appeal.
(I would have had if my kids would have been disfunctional - in fact if they were statemented I could get some benefits from the State!)
In fact I am probably in one of the few sections of society in which everywhere I go that has the involvement of the State, I am at a disadvantage to the majority of the population.
I was only really referring to the whole "euro-barmy picked upon grocers" argument... but you're right it was a bit of a flippant cheap shot...Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
How come though the BNP can be racist (no ethnic minorities allowed to join) and allowed to operate?
Well said Mud.... what I was really pussy footing around but you actually had the balls to say!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mud
I wondered that too...Quote:
Originally Posted by nikalas
Mind you, I stay out of the argument, as I am Dutch and therefore only vote in local elections in the UK... I still vote in the Netherlands for Euro and National elections.
Sir Robert Atkins, the North West Tory MEP described Nick Griffin's election as a sad day for British politics. This is the same Robert Atkins who used his parliamentary expenses to pay his travel and hotel bills when he flew to his son's wedding in America in 2006 and has employed both his wife and son to 'work' for him in Brussels