England Mountain Running Teams

England Mountain Running Teams for the Commonwealth Championship Event (Keswick 17-20 Sept)

Up Hill Only Teams

Men
Orlando Edwards (Shaftsbury Barnet)
Rob Jebb (Bingley Harriers)
Andi Jones (Salford Harriers)
Adam Osborne (Leeds City)
Gareth Raven (Sale Harriers)
James Walsh (Leeds City)


Women
Kate Goodhead (Stroud AC)
Katie Ingram (Horwich RMI)
Clare McKittrick (Charnwood)
Rebecca Robinson (Kendal AC)
Nicola Sykes (Bedford & County)
Victoria Wilkinson (Bingley Harriers)


Up and Down Teams


Men
Simon Bailey (Mercia)
John Brown (Salford Harriers)
Billy Burns (Salford Harriers)
Adam Grice (Leeds City)
Nick Swinburn (Northern FR)
Matt Whitfield (Bingley Harriers)


Women
Lizzie Adams (Hallamshire Harriers)
Kate Goodhead (Stroud AC)
Katie Ingram (Horwich RMI)
Sarah Tunstall (Kendal AC)
Olivia Walwyn (Altrincham)
Mary Wilkinson (Bingley Harriers)

Uphill only:confused:
Hope Jebby gets down off the mountain in time for the 3ppp's Cyclocross:D

Look very fair teams. Should have a good chance of medals:)

Can anyone please explain why Pippa Jackson as been left out of the team?. Not only is she the new British and English Fell Champion, she knows Latrigg better than any other runner taking part. Pippa is on top form at the moment, she broke the 14 year old record for The Grisedale Horseshoe last weekend and she won Grasmere the week before. 2nd at Snowdon a week after winning Wasdale, need I go on????!!!!.

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Originally Posted by keswickoldman

Can anyone please explain why Pippa Jackson as been left out of the team?. Not only is she the new British and English Fell Champion, she knows Latrigg better than any other running taking part. Pippa is on top form at the moment, she broke the 14 year old record for The Grisedale Horseshoe last weekend and she won Grasmere the week before. 2nd at Snowdon a week after winning Wasdale, need I go on??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

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Agreed and perhaps less so where is Emma Clayton

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Originally Posted by keswickoldman

Can anyone please explain why Pippa Jackson has been left out of the team?.

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Yes - the selectors.

According to the results , Pippa Jackson did not take part in the trial race, Emma Clayton was 6th.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keswickoldman

Can anyone please explain why Pippa Jackson as been left out of the team?. Not only is she the new British and English Fell Champion, she knows Latrigg better than any other running taking part. Pippa is on top form at the moment, she broke the 14 year old record for The Grisedale Horseshoe last weekend and she won Grasmere the week before. 2nd at Snowdon a week after winning Wasdale, need I go on??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

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Is this a question? In which case this paragraph should have stopped with the ?

Or is it an opinion? As in whatever Pippa's wishes and the selectors' decision I know better?

Or is it a demonstration that you are illiterate as in "running" for "runner"?

Or that your PC has diarrhoea when it sees a ? or !, one usually being sufficient?

As to your final question- "No!"

Pippa had asked for an exemption from the Trials as she was getting married the week before .... I have photos to prove it!!. Anyway there were others who missed the trials and have been selected.

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Originally Posted by alphandomega

Is this a question? In which case this paragraph should have stopped with the ?

Or is it an opinion? As in whatever Pippa's wishes and the selectors' decision I know better?

Or is it a demonstration that you are illiterate as in "running" for "runner"?

Or that your PC has diarrhoea when it sees a ? or !, one usually being sufficient?

As to your final question- "No!"

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haha hilarious

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keswickoldman

Pippa had asked for an exemption from the Trials as she was getting married the week before .... I have photos to prove it!!. Anyway there were others who missed the trials and have been selected.

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Maybe the other women are thought to be the better 'mountain' runnersn

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Maybe the other women are thought to be the better 'mountain' runnersn

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no it can't be that, from Wasdale to Tenby, from Grisdale to Grassmere Pippa has won them all. Not forgetting Latrigg where the Commonwealth race is being held.

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Originally Posted by keswickoldman

no it can't be that, from Wasdale to Tenby, from Grisdale to Grassmere Pippa has won them all. Not forgetting Latrigg where the Commonwealth race is being held.

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Not fell race though are they, mountain races slight difference. More suited to road runners.
Honestly look at the list and i can only find 3 out an out fell runners. Jebby, Bailey and Swinbo. Maybe Andi and Katie Ingram fit into that as well. the rest are top quality road runners

This is a matter for Pippa alone to discuss in private with the selectors, assuming she is unhappy at not being selected. End of.

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Originally Posted by FellJunior

This is a matter for Pippa alone to discuss in private with the selectors, assuming she is unhappy at not being selected. End of.

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yes i agree but discussion about the types of runner selected is ok isnt it. Good luck to them all it is certainly a top quality team

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keswickoldman

Can anyone please explain why Pippa Jackson as been left out of the team?. Not only is she the new British and English Fell Champion, she knows Latrigg better than any other runner taking part. Pippa is on top form at the moment, she broke the 14 year old record for The Grisedale Horseshoe last weekend and she won Grasmere the week before. 2nd at Snowdon a week after winning Wasdale, need I go on????!!!!.

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Yes, but what was the competition in these races? She may have been 2nd at Snowdon but wasnt she around 5 minutes behind the 1st lady? That's a massive gulf in class over 75 minutres. These races are more about aerobic ability than fellrunning ability or knowledge of Latrigg

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Not fell race though are they, mountain races slight difference. More suited to road runners.
Honestly look at the list and i can only find 3 out an out fell runners. Jebby, Bailey and Swinbo. Maybe Andi and Katie Ingram fit into that as well. the rest are top quality road runners

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2 "out and out" fell guys I think you'll find.

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

2 "out and out" fell guys I think you'll find.

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Sorry but Swinbo is a fellsman

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Sorry but Swinbo is a fellsman

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Doesn't he race as much on the track as on the fells? Ergo, not an out and out fellrunner. You don't run a 14:15 (or whatever) 5km being an out and out fellsman

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

Doesn't he race as much on the track as on the fells? Ergo, not an out and out fellrunner. You don't run a 14:15 (or whatever) 5km being an out and out fellsman

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Im and out and out fellsman.:D

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

Im and out and out fellsman.:D

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That you are sir

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphandomega

Is this a question? In which case this paragraph should have stopped with the ?

Or is it an opinion? As in whatever Pippa's wishes and the selectors' decision I know better?

Or is it a demonstration that you are illiterate as in "running" for "runner"?

Or that your PC has diarrhoea when it sees a ? or !, one usually being sufficient?

As to your final question- "No!"

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He's only giving out an opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by FellJunior

This is a matter for Pippa alone to discuss in private with the selectors, assuming she is unhappy at not being selected. End of.

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Agreed.

As the vulgar phrase has it "everyone has an opinion" and they rarely coincide but only, repeat only, the Selectors have knowledge of the courses, the athletes' aspirations, the performance data, etc and the responsibility to make an informed selection and live with their decisions.

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Originally Posted by alphandomega

Agreed.

As the vulgar phrase has it "everyone has an opinion" and they rarely coincide but only, repeat only, the Selectors have knowledge of the courses, the athletes' aspirations, the performance data, etc and the responsibility to make an informed selection and live with their decisions.

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What about God? Does he not have this knowledge?

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Originally Posted by FellRunner1

He's only giving out an opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Thanks for that .... thats the point of these forums surely?.

I thought it might make for an interesting debate as Pippa's fellow runners in Keswick are surprised that she has been left out of the team.

Still, we will be there mashalling etc as we did for the Trials.

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

Im and out and out fellsman.:D

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i'm just the resident clown :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Not fell race though are they, mountain races slight difference. More suited to road runners.
Honestly look at the list and i can only find 3 out an out fell runners. Jebby, Bailey and Swinbo. Maybe Andi and Katie Ingram fit into that as well. the rest are top quality road runners

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I understand the difference but the 'up and down' race is more of a fell race. Local knowledge of the route would be very useful. The climbs are steep and the decent if wet, slippy.

As for the men, most of the out and out fell runners didn't bother turning up for the Trials.

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

What about God? Does he not have this knowledge?

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A Revelation! Yes and that is why she is a Selector.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keswickoldman

I understand the difference but the 'up and down' race is more of a fell race. Local knowledge of the route would be very useful. The climbs are steep and the decent if wet, slippy.

As for the men, most of the out and out fell runners didn't bother turning up for the Trials.

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Rob Hope present
Danny Hope present
Simon Bailey presesnt
Ian Holmes present
Ricky Lightfoot present
Morgan Donnelly present.....
Lloyd Taggart present

I'm afraid by the time your Pipps hit the summit, not even an airplane would catch the front runners.....local knowledge is a poor substitute for speed over a lapped course on runnable terrain

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Originally Posted by alphandomega

A Revelation! Yes and that is why she is a Selector.

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Everybody knows God has a willy

On the right of forumites to question the selection policy, I think we have every right.
The authorities are the custodians of the sport on our behalf.

As a small time custodian in some way, I much prefer to have input and feedback (from my club members and race attendees) rather than nothing.
If the selectors were to get uppity about criticism, I am sure that they would not put themselves up there to be shot at.

Looking at the selection - and this is merely my opinion - I would say that had Pippa Jackson ran in the trial, she would have had a good chance of making the top four - but then again she might not have - I think the first 2 are clearly ahead of the rest at the moment and I would add Sarah Tunstall to that.
Probably the selectors could not pick too many wild cards or the trial would be discredited.
So Pippa was perhaps in the mix with Mary and Olivia, with the 2 trial attendees getting the nod.

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

Rob Hope present
Danny Hope present
Simon Bailey presesnt
Ian Holmes present
Ricky Lightfoot present
Morgan Donnelly present.....
Lloyd Taggart present

I'm afraid by the time your Pipps hit the summit, not even an airplane would catch the front runners.....local knowledge is a poor substitute for speed over a lapped course on runnable terrain

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she is not 'my' Pipps' !!. She does run with wings on her feet, has won road races and is the Cumbrian X-country champion. Speed is her middle name.

OK end of debate from me.

I think as a further point, about the selection of athletes not in the trial, I would say that Andi Jones and Steve Vernon would probably be our strongest runners but clearly they have a varied set of commitments including road and cross country.

That is not to denigrate any of our fell runners. You have to be in it to win it.

I personally think there should be more places allocated to the trial and less discretion with the wild cards, but there are also relevant reasons why this isn't done.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I think as a further point, about the selection of athletes not in the trial, I would say that Andi Jones and Steve Vernon would probably be our strongest runners but clearly they have a varied set of commitments including road and cross country.

That is not to denigrate any of our fell runners. You have to be in it to win it.

I personally think there should be more places allocated to the trial and less discretion with the wild cards, but there are also relevant reasons why this isn't done.

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I completely agree WP about emphasis being put on a trial, but until somene decides the outcome of the selection will be purely on a trial we will always have a situation where people get selected who are not at a trial. Many selection races which we have now, and I dont mean just in Fell and Mountain running, people often believe the trial is just one way of getting on a team. I wasn't in the country when this trial took place and as it happens I have just withdrew from the team.
Good luck to everyone running. I hope some medals come to those in the teams. They all deserve them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I personally think there should be more places allocated to the trial and less discretion with the wild cards, but there are also relevant reasons why this isn't done.

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I think so too. The problem with these mountain running events is much of our fell running season can be overlooked as irrelevant so the selectors are in a difficult situation of having to compare runners from quite different disciplines who would very rarely race each other.

The obvious way to do it is just to be strict, use the US way and just put it all or 90% on the trial. Obviously it's harsh on those who may have an off day but I think that's what competing is all about. You need to be able to perform under pressure. Don't run the trial don't get selected. As long as the Trial dates are provided early enough then there's few excuses for missing them. As long as it's very clear and well communicated I think more people would do the trials. At the moment if you are unsure if you'll win or come in the top 2 but have a good record at other events it's probably worth not running and asking for an exemption.

Could you pick the top 3 from the Championship plus the first 3 in the trial?

Surely the Championship counts for something?

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Originally Posted by IainR

I think so too. The problem with these mountain running events is much of our fell running season can be overlooked as irrelevant so the selectors are in a difficult situation of having to compare runners from quite different disciplines who would very rarely race each other.

The obvious way to do it is just to be strict, use the US way and just put it all or 90% on the trial. Obviously it's harsh on those who may have an off day but I think that's what competing is all about. You need to be able to perform under pressure. Don't run the trial don't get selected. As long as the Trial dates are provided early enough then there's few excuses for missing them. As long as it's very clear and well communicated I think more people would do the trials. At the moment if you are unsure if you'll win or come in the top 2 but have a good record at other events it's probably worth not running and asking for an exemption.

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I agree with what you have there Iain - I think there sometimes is a tendency - perhaps more prevalent in Track and Field and Cross Country, for athletes to miss trials for what I deem as spurious reasons (of course they would say otherwise).

I am more linked in with FRA junior and there has been a drift away from automatic places based on the overall FRA Junior series with only 1 place automatic now (see below criteria).

England Team: 4 U18 men, 4 U18 women, 4 U16 men, 4 U16 women, plus one travelling reserve in each category.
Selection: the first runner in the FRA junior championship in each category will gain automatic selection. The remaining places will be selected on known form. To be considered for selection athletes must have competed in at least two 2009 FRA Junior English Championship races.

Although the selectors have gone largely with the top places, it does leave the doubt in the mind of the athletes, which especially for younger athletes who may well be looking to make there International debut, can be quite nervy.

I would sooner see a move that placed the vast majority of the selection process on the trial, or the series of trials and took pressure off the selectors and made life clearer for athletes, coaches and parents.

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Originally Posted by Stagger

Could you pick the top 3 from the Championship plus the first 3 in the trial?

Surely the Championship counts for something?

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I'm not sure it should, the 2/3rds of championship races this year were good traditional fell races, Sleive Bernagh (sp), Stuc A Chroin, Garn. Tebay was fairly runnable, but quite different from a mountain running course.

The Welsh team is composed of runners who have not ran on the fells at all this year and didn't do the trial either. Then there's fell runners who have missed out who have ran on the fells all year yet didn't do the trial. Tough call for the selectors so the most transparent way of doing it is placing all or most of emphasis on the trial.

The process should be as transparent as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stagger

Could you pick the top 3 from the Championship plus the first 3 in the trial?

Surely the Championship counts for something?

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I think one of the problems is that Tebay (for example - as well as many others) is different to the overseas international events.

It would be like picking an Ironman winner for an International marathon - they'd probably do OK, but couldn't be as good as a marathon specialist.

I think the trial system is fair, but it would be clearer if the trial was used almost exclusively, with perhaps a maximum 25% of slots for selectors picks.
I think also automatic selectors picks should be (provisionally) declared before the trial so that the triallists no in advance how many places they are battling for in reality.

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Originally Posted by IainR

I'm not sure it should, the 2/3rds of championship races this year were good traditional fell races, Sleive Bernagh (sp), Stuc A Chroin, Garn. Tebay was fairly runnable, but quite different from a mountain running course.

The Welsh team is composed of runners who have not ran on the fells at all this year and didn't do the trial either. Then there's fell runners who have missed out who have ran on the fells all year yet didn't do the trial. Tough call for the selectors so the most transparent way of doing it is placing all or most of emphasis on the trial.

The process should be as transparent as possible.

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Just also come to me that you might not know the final placings of the Championship at the time that selection had to be made.

If the trials are clear - and the Champs races are clear - I think athletes can then cut their cloth accordingly. Some will prioritise the British or their National Champs whilst others will go for International selection.

My 2 cents:

1) I think it would be wrong to make a selection based 100% on the trial race. Saying that, the winner should be guaranteed (or equivalent as publicised)...that's why i was outranged with the Long Distance cockup earlier in the year.

2) Stagger's suggestion about selecting the top 3 in the championships serves only to highlight his complete ignorance to any knowledge of running. I'm sorry if that seems harsh Trevor, but praise be that you have no part to play on any selection committee if you would seriously entertain that notion. Hopefully, you were just 'chucking it out there'. Which championship would you use: British? English? Let's face it, the British championship has been a softer touch (by comparison) than the English for a few years now as many do not travel.

3) Once again, I think the discussion on this thread has served only to highlight the ludicrous nature of the fellrunning championship system. This is not forumula 1 or a football tournament. In my opinion, it makes complete sense to have a championship as a 1 off race rather than a 4 or 6 race series, but then what do I know?

Fire away boys and girls....