The mythical spirit

The FRA is 40 years old next year. Since this forum started there has been a lot of talk about the 'spirit of fellrunning'. What is this spirit of which they talk? It is certainly not the spirit that immediate members of my family see from well over 35 years in the sport. The sport has changed, unfortunately due to modern life it cannot be as free spirited as it once was. Alot of people want things now, they need to know what they are doing in 3, 4 ,5 months time. Massive pre-entry is not in the old spirit but maybe there is a new spirit.

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What is this spirit of which they talk? It is certainly not the spirit that immediate members of my family see from well over 35 years in the sport. The sport has changed, unfortunately due to modern life it cannot be as free spirited as it once was. Alot of people want things now, they need to know what they are doing in 3, 4 ,5 months time. Massive pre-entry is not in the old spirit but maybe there is a new spirit.

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Such spirit is not tangible and easily defined. Nor should it be.
Things change but not necessarily for the better. Sometimes things go in circles, die off and regenerate. Look at the age of fell runners. At some point, race numbers will plummet, races die off etc and then some enthusiastic young person will re-invent a race and off we go again.

Fell running is not solely defined by races. A lot of legwork goes into the training and maybe that is where the carefree aspect lies. With insurances, regulations, rules comes accountability which is not good ground for free spirit.

In the next hour or so, I will be off for a run around the Dunnerdales and Coniston range. I don't know how long I'll be nor do I care so long as I have the energy. Whatever the weather, I will enjoy it. It may help with a race or challenge but more importantly it will keep my body, mind and spirit in good order.Its as free spirited as I can get.

I too could give countless examples of carefree, free spirited events. BUT that was as a green participant in the 70s and 80s who had no idea what the organiser had to put up with or worry about. Rose tinted spectacles have to replaced from time to time with magnified clear ones.

Alf, I'm off up Brown Pike around midday. Looks a bit claggy up there but should still get some of that spirit.

Have a good run!

In support of alf.t, I've really enjoyed just being back on my feet since returning from injury. Running over the hills in all weathers: sometimes fast, sometimes slow; sometimes alone, sometimes with company. I think this is what I love most. None of this has been in any races, though I use these as markers/goals to ensure a smidgen of focus.

I can't talk for what the 'spirit' was back in the 60/70/80/90s, and no doubt people still involved with the sport from back in the day will have noticed some changes. As usual with human nature, there are going to be people who view most of the changes since as a deterioration. But I know when compared with other sports I've been involved in in this day and age, there is still a relative innocence, which I guess is what you refer to?

The people - competitors, organisers, supporters - are welcoming and friendly and there are no barriers for anyone who wants to take the sport up. Could you really ask for any more?

I've not been to many races, maybe 4 now, but about the age of fell runners, it does seem to my eyes, that the average age of runners at races is about 40.

This is slightly worrying for the future of the sport, there are young runners, but compared to track/road/XC, there doesn't seem to be a similar correlation. I don't know why this is? :( Fell running outclasses track/road/XC hands down in all aspects. Maybe its because the track/road/XC get more media coverage.

That aside its definitely the best sport I've taken up for a million reasons, and have been helped massively by various runners, who are keen to pass on their tips and knowledge.

I agree about the pre-entries, I'd rather turn up on the day, pay a fiver and go for a run. Its a shame but I find if I want to do the races that really matter to me in most cases getting an entry in early is the only way. There are exceptions of course - 3 Shires being a prime example. What does disturb me about the pre-entries though is the large proportion of non starters, and perhaps that might be part of what has changed? At one time I suggest people would only enter the longer or harder races if they had served their time and gained experience and confidence in their ability and were prepared to turn up and run regardless of weather etc, only staying at home if they were injured or if something unexpected crops up. I think this takes a mindset or attitude, possibly rooted in mountaineering, that is sometimes missing nowadays. For example I heard a runner commenting on Borrowdale a few years ago that they were taken aback that there were no drinks stations. I'm not sure what they expected, or what they thought the streams were for, but they clearly didn't have a lot of experience of fell running. Since then the organisers have felt it necessary to vet entries, and based on that example I think I can see why, and that is probably one of the reasons that some of these changes have come about. I suggest a proportion of pre entries might be made on a casual basis based on an over optimistic training programme and anticipation of good weather, with little intention of actually doing the race if neither happens. But behind all that I think a lot of the original 'spirit' remains - once we are on the hill whether just out training or during a race its never easy, (nearly) always enjoyable, and in many cases we can run the same routes and lines if not always the same races as people were doing at the start - even doing one leg of the BGR and imagining the man himself going the same way, seeing the same views, knowing the same places all those years ago is a shared history that will hopefully keep some of that spirit alive, or at least it will for me!

I think, for me "the spirit" is about being in the mountains . A feeling that I've had since I was a boy when my Dad used to drop me off,several miles away from where we used to stay in north Wales, give me a map and compass and let me find my own way back (he would be arrested for that now:D). Walking over mountains that most of the population never get to see because their too lazy (long may they stay lazy). And now ,much later in life, I find small groups of like minded people that love being in the worst of the weather with the minimum of kit . Whether it's an AS or a BL , good weather or bad, there's something about giving it your all and getting covered in mud . Great......

To me it seems like Fell running is between a rock and a hard place as regards the aging athletes. To attract more youngsters there needs to be involvement from qualified coaches specific to Fell running getting involved in schools and making it a part of the cirriculum just like track and cross country are. I am aware this is a double edged sword and may lead to too many fell runners and possible enviromental damage but that could be managed thru race organisers and also making sure the F.R.A. membership actively help with the maintainence of the countryside. At the moment the juniors seem to be sons, daughters, niece and nephews of senior fell runners and that needs to change to get real growth. I would implement the coaches to get involved with schools in areas which have easy access to hills initially and take it from there. There also needs to be more of a drive to persuade more of us to become coaches to pass this on as it would be sad to see such a historic part of Britains' sporting heritage disappear because enough of us didn't get involved because we felt it was against the spirit of Fellrunning which i can understand and to a large extent agree with but it looks like there will be a time when a crossroads of spirit or survival will be reached and difficult decisions made. Sorry for getting on my soapbox. I just care about what happens.

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Originally Posted by nightingale

I think, for me "the spirit" is about being in the mountains . A feeling that I've had since I was a boy when my Dad used to drop me off,several miles away from where we used to stay in north Wales, give me a map and compass and let me find my own way back (he would be arrested for that now:D).

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Character building, puts hairs on your chest, foundation of the Empire, etc.

What an experience that must have been. What a dad!:D

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Originally Posted by southernsoftie

Character building, puts hairs on your chest, foundation of the Empire, etc.

What an experience that must have been. What a dad!:D

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I'd like to think he did it on purpose but I thnk he was hoping to loose me :D

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Originally Posted by ukhursty

I've not been to many races, maybe 4 now, but about the age of fell runners, it does seem to my eyes, that the average age of runners at races is about 40.

This is slightly worrying for the future of the sport, there are young runners, but compared to track/road/XC, there doesn't seem to be a similar correlation. I don't know why this is? :( Fell running outclasses track/road/XC hands down in all aspects. Maybe its because the track/road/XC get more media coverage.

That aside its definitely the best sport I've taken up for a million reasons, and have been helped massively by various runners, who are keen to pass on their tips and knowledge.

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The average age of fell runners may be about 40, but so long as it is not increasing that in itself need not be a problem. It probably means that people take up fell-running at a later age. Except at the highest level this is probably true of running (fell/track/road/XC) in general. Quite a lot of activity at junior level (look at the Fellrunner for evidence!); less at senior level as people do other sports (or none) or have other responsibilities taking up their time; a resurgence at veteran level.

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Originally Posted by delicious

The FRA is 40 years old next year. Since this forum started there has been a lot of talk about the 'spirit of fellrunning'. What is this spirit of which they talk? It is certainly not the spirit that immediate members of my family see from well over 35 years in the sport. The sport has changed, unfortunately due to modern life it cannot be as free spirited as it once was. Alot of people want things now, they need to know what they are doing in 3, 4 ,5 months time. Massive pre-entry is not in the old spirit but maybe there is a new spirit.

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Im pretty sure ridiculous age limits werent part of the old spirit but oh well

Many interesting and fine words on the subject about this 'Mythical Spirit'.

I guess we want to look back at 'innocent' unspoilt times of hap hazard, ill preparedness that we all laugh at after the event. And wonder why we have all this regulation and organisation when all we need to do is pull on some basic kit and head off over a peak or two.
BUT I would not have wanted to be the organiser (remember Kentmere 94) when a runner was never to return or dread the inquest.
Certainty is what we human beings crave. Whether it be income, relationships, family, routine, work etc. When we get to a certain point (maybe our 30s 40s) we are prepared to dip our toes into the occasional uncertainty that these mountains inevitably throw up. And it offers a more important escape from the certain drudgery that modern life has sculptored.

The Free-spiritedness is a very personal one and not something that is easily shared because at different points in life, one's perception of it is different because we change too.

But the desire to lose oneself in the hills will remain. Whether by design or not.

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Originally Posted by alf.t

Many interesting and fine words on the subject about this 'Mythical Spirit'.

I guess we want to look back at 'innocent' unspoilt times of hap hazard, ill preparedness that we all laugh at after the event. And wonder why we have all this regulation and organisation when all we need to do is pull on some basic kit and head off over a peak or two.
BUT I would not have wanted to be the organiser (remember Kentmere 94) when a runner was never to return or dread the inquest.
Certainty is what we human beings crave. Whether it be income, relationships, family, routine, work etc. When we get to a certain point (maybe our 30s 40s) we are prepared to dip our toes into the occasional uncertainty that these mountains inevitably throw up. And it offers a more important escape from the certain drudgery that modern life has sculptored.

The Free-spiritedness is a very personal one and not something that is easily shared because at different points in life, one's perception of it is different because we change too.

But the desire to lose oneself in the hills will remain. Whether by design or not.

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The drudgery of modern life is like a prison

...a prison for your mind Neo

There was plenty of free spirit (despite the bar prices!) at the FRA dinner last night and it was certainly in evidence at the AGM earlier in the day where we raced through the formal business in just under 15 minutes!

It clearly means (a variation on) different things to different people.

For me it is (and always was) a mixture of running in places that are relatively wild and innaccessible to others, coupled with races that are, in both tangible and intangible ways, a million miles from the road races I've done.

fb

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The drudgery of modern life is like a prison

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Mr B,

I actually work in a prison. Thankfully when the door clanks behind as I leave, there is a great view of Cumbrian fells that take only a handful of minutes to reach. The freedom perhaps is sweeter knowing what prison is like.

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Originally Posted by delicious

The FRA is 40 years old next year. Since this forum started there has been a lot of talk about the 'spirit of fellrunning'. What is this spirit of which they talk? It is certainly not the spirit that immediate members of my family see from well over 35 years in the sport. The sport has changed, unfortunately due to modern life it cannot be as free spirited as it once was. Alot of people want things now, they need to know what they are doing in 3, 4 ,5 months time. Massive pre-entry is not in the old spirit but maybe there is a new spirit.

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Newby point of view:

'Spirit of Fellrunning' is about Fellrunning

Pre-entry etc applies to fell racing? Runnings not all about racing.... The racings changed, has the running?

What's all the fuss about fellrunning being in trouble because the average age of competitors is 40? Every race I go to now the entries are burgeoning. I did Guisborough Three Tops today. If you want that old time feel have a go at the races on the North York Moors; couldn't be more authentic. Bravo Dave Parry!

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Originally Posted by delicious

The FRA is 40 years old next year.

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...and so am I! :eek:
I am also new to fellrunning....and will have one of those V things next to my name soon! :eek:
GD.....will see you at the authentic North yorks Moors races in 2010 for a few average performances! ;)

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Originally Posted by Mountain Goatess

...and so am I! :eek:

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Life begins at 40:cool:

The age of fellrunners does not matter. Whether fell running grows or withers and dies does not matter. All that matters is that the fells will be there for those who appreciate them, when they need them and in the manner that feeds that appreciation.

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

The age of fellrunners does not matter. Whether fell running grows or withers and dies does not matter. All that matters is that the fells will be there for those who appreciate them, when they need them and in the manner that feeds that appreciation.

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:cool::)

I haven't read the whole thread just first page and this
Hursty- one reason youngsters may seem fewer to you is the llimits put on them by the FRA in terms of distance. I know why they do it and maybe they are even right but for my two sons the idea of a short fast fell race with very strict km rules meant they prefered to orienteer and have a longer run and be out for longer.
No doubt their prefence like mine is for longer runs. Both did the SLMM this year and loved it.
I guess when they are able to enter longer races they will return to the fells as well as orienteering

the spirit for me is in the sense of place, of territory, or the connection between man and the land, the fact that you discover something new about the country each time you run, or that you feel naked amid your surroundings.

the people are a bonus and there are some splendid folk, but it would be daft to claim fellrunners are any more 'special' than anyone else, we just happen to share a hobby that gathers like-minded souls

but it's the land what does it

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Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo

the spirit for me is in the sense of place, of territory, or the connection between man and the land, the fact that you discover something new about the country each time you run, or that you feel naked amid your surroundings.

the people are a bonus and there are some splendid folk, but it would be daft to claim fellrunners are any more 'special' than anyone else, we just happen to share a hobby that gathers like-minded souls

but it's the land what does it

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Interesting thread.

For me Fell Running is something that stays in the mind after the event and the experience. A race or training run in the fells seems to live on inside.

The fact that I can be on my monday morning meat waggon to Central London, close my eyes and see myself bounding over Green Gable in this years Borrowdale sums up this feeling that we are all trying to apply language to (although none will achieve it).

Excellently put Roy - I wanted to put something about memories and a total change from working life, but you put it better! I was putting together a display of students' work today (one of a teacher's duller tasks) and the mental image of coming down the roaches yesterday greatly helped.

On an side note, yesterday's spirit of running was the tasty post-race post-bath glass of Laphroig.

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Originally Posted by delicious

The FRA is 40 years old next year. Since this forum started there has been a lot of talk about the 'spirit of fellrunning'. What is this spirit of which they talk? It is certainly not the spirit that immediate members of my family see from well over 35 years in the sport. The sport has changed, unfortunately due to modern life it cannot be as free spirited as it once was. Alot of people want things now, they need to know what they are doing in 3, 4 ,5 months time. Massive pre-entry is not in the old spirit but maybe there is a new spirit.

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Thats more wrong than right in my opinion.

First off for me fell running is running solo in the hills 90% of the time. How can that not be free spirited? The isolation, the beauty, the slightly bonkersness of it - its not mythical (ie made up) but is very real to me. Mystical? Yes. Spiritual? Yes. Mythical? No.

As for racing. Races are probably better organised and co-ordinated nowadays, surely a lot safer and fell racing seems to be booming. Just compare fell races now to when Richard Askwith was talking about them when he wrote feet in the clouds - fields are growing year on year at the minute and, yes, big races are filling up quicker. Buts that down to success not loss of mythical/mystical spirit.

I don't know about mythical spirit but the friendly and welcoming attitude that all of you show to new members is refreshing and says a lot about the decent sort of people involved in this wonderful sport. I think to the outsider you are all part of the overall spirit of Fellrunning as well as the wonderful hills.

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Originally Posted by Stolly

Thats more wrong than right in my opinion.

First off for me fell running is running solo in the hills 90% of the time. How can that not be free spirited? The isolation, the beauty, the slightly bonkersness of it - its not mythical (ie made up) but is very real to me. Mystical? Yes. Spiritual? Yes. Mythical? No.

As for racing. Races are probably better organised and co-ordinated nowadays, surely a lot safer and fell racing seems to be booming. Just compare fell races now to when Richard Askwith was talking about them when he wrote feet in the clouds - fields are growing year on year at the minute and, yes, big races are filling up quicker. Buts that down to success not loss of mythical/mystical spirit.

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For you our thoughts maybe more right than wrong. But for my husband who started fell running and racing at 8 and is still competing with much success at 43 the running and racing go hand in hand. For him the spirit of fell running has died a little as things have 'progressed'. Taking a bit of the old spirit away. I started fell running because of the tales told to me by may dad of how the club used to go away in vans and wild camp before races and then all head off to the pub, they never knew where they would end up until the night before a race and sometimes did not know where they had ended up the day after! They were all free spirits, races were not that frequent but the running and racing went hand in hand. They didn't have to think about what races they were doing they just went and did them. Even so we still love our sport and would struggle to live without it.

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Originally Posted by delicious

how the club used to go away in vans and wild camp before races and then all head off to the pub, they never knew where they would end up until the night before a race and sometimes did not know where they had ended up the day after!

They were all free spirits...

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i.e just like the XOTF.

However the spirits are no longer free:D

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Originally Posted by delicious

the club used to go away in vans and wild camp before races and then all head off to the pub, they never knew where they would end up until the night before a race and sometimes did not know where they had ended up the day after! They were all free spirits, races were not that frequent but the running and racing went hand in hand. They didn't have to think about what races they were doing they just went and did them. Even so we still love our sport and would struggle to live without it.

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Anything stopping you doing that now?

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Originally Posted by delicious

the club used to go away in vans and wild camp before races and then all head off to the pub, they never knew where they would end up until the night before a race and sometimes did not know where they had ended up the day after! They were all free spirits, races were not that frequent but the running and racing went hand in hand. They didn't have to think about what races they were doing they just went and did them.

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Like hill running surfer dudes, man. I hope they all had scooby doo vans

The Spirit of Fellrunning

What is the spirit of fell running?

Just turning up at a race, paying a few quid, and running - Borrowing a pair of shoes off a stranger to race in - New races starting, old ones dying - Waiting for the hounds to come in before setting off - Race you to the top of that hill and back lads - Helping on a Bob Graham leg for someone you don’t know - Just being in the mountains - It takes me back to being a boy, just me and my Dad - Giving it your all, getting covered in mud – It is at odds with a risk adverse society - Juniors disappearing, come back at 40 - A desire to lose oneself in the hills, whether by design or not - It isn’t all about the racing: the racing has changed, the running hasn’t - Whether the sport grows, withers or dies. That doesn’t matter. All that matters is that the fells will always be there for those who appreciate them - A sense of place, of territory, the connection between man and the land - I’ve known him for 20 years. I don’t know what his day job is, I just know he’s a runner - The fact that you discover something new about the country, and yourself, each time you run - Feeling naked amid your surroundings - Free from the world - I can be on my Monday morning meat wagon to Central London, close my eyes and see myself bounding over Green Gable - A sense of freedom and abandonment - A tasty post-race, post-bath glass of Laphroig - The welcoming attitude that all of you show to new members - Running solo in the hills. How can that not be free spirited? - The isolation, the beauty, the slightly bonkersness of it - Some times fast, sometimes slow; sometimes alone, sometimes with company - No barriers for anyone who wants to take the sport up - The people; competitors, organisers, supporters. All are welcoming and friendly - The wilderness and the sense of the power of nature – Don’t tell me all kids are fat and lazy, just look at them go - Feeling totally alive in every nerve and sinew - The hand offered as you hesitate at a river crossing - Falling and being lifted back on my feet by two men who didn't break their stride - Where human nature and the environment meet in a friendly fight - The pint in the pub afterwards, the banter, the mates, the tales - Running past someone in full winter gear: crampons, ice axe, the lot. And I'm wearing shorts - No pins, no toilets, no entry fee, no prizes - Flagging the course, racing it, then picking up the flags again - The old guy who once raced came along to watch. Nobody realises how good he was - The fast and the slow, everyone cheering on everyone else as they race straight up and down the fell - Fatigue, fellowship, pain, beauty, and an uncomplicated relationship with nature.

What would you say?

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Originally Posted by Harry H Howgill

The Spirit of Fellrunning

What is the spirit of fell running?

Just turning up at a race, paying a few quid, and running - Borrowing a pair of shoes off a stranger to race in - New races starting, old ones dying - Waiting for the hounds to come in before setting off - Race you to the top of that hill and back lads - Helping on a Bob Graham leg for someone you don’t know - Just being in the mountains - It takes me back to being a boy, just me and my Dad - Giving it your all, getting covered in mud – It is at odds with a risk adverse society - Juniors disappearing, come back at 40 - A desire to lose oneself in the hills, whether by design or not - It isn’t all about the racing: the racing has changed, the running hasn’t - Whether the sport grows, withers or dies. That doesn’t matter. All that matters is that the fells will always be there for those who appreciate them - A sense of place, of territory, the connection between man and the land - I’ve known him for 20 years. I don’t know what his day job is, I just know he’s a runner - The fact that you discover something new about the country, and yourself, each time you run - Feeling naked amid your surroundings - Free from the world - I can be on my Monday morning meat wagon to Central London, close my eyes and see myself bounding over Green Gable - A sense of freedom and abandonment - A tasty post-race, post-bath glass of Laphroig - The welcoming attitude that all of you show to new members - Running solo in the hills. How can that not be free spirited? - The isolation, the beauty, the slightly bonkersness of it - Some times fast, sometimes slow; sometimes alone, sometimes with company - No barriers for anyone who wants to take the sport up - The people; competitors, organisers, supporters. All are welcoming and friendly - The wilderness and the sense of the power of nature – Don’t tell me all kids are fat and lazy, just look at them go - Feeling totally alive in every nerve and sinew - The hand offered as you hesitate at a river crossing - Falling and being lifted back on my feet by two men who didn't break their stride - Where human nature and the environment meet in a friendly fight - The pint in the pub afterwards, the banter, the mates, the tales - Running past someone in full winter gear: crampons, ice axe, the lot. And I'm wearing shorts - No pins, no toilets, no entry fee, no prizes - Flagging the course, racing it, then picking up the flags again - The old guy who once raced came along to watch. Nobody realises how good he was - The fast and the slow, everyone cheering on everyone else as they race straight up and down the fell - Fatigue, fellowship, pain, beauty, and an uncomplicated relationship with nature.

What would you say?

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Id say brilliant HHH

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Id say brilliant HHH

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It is all everyone's own work. Comments pilfered from various posts on the theme.

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Originally Posted by Harry H Howgill

It is all everyone's own work. Comments pilfered from various posts on the theme.

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really....please put that in the fellrunner.
Oh btw did i write any of that or was it much too grammatically accurate for me

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Originally Posted by Harry H Howgill

Feeling naked amid your surroundings

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So no required kit then?;)

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Originally Posted by Harry H Howgill

The Spirit of Fellrunning

What is the spirit of fell running?

Just turning up at a race, paying a few quid, and running - Borrowing a pair of shoes off a stranger to race in - New races starting, old ones dying - Waiting for the hounds to come in before setting off - Race you to the top of that hill and back lads - Helping on a Bob Graham leg for someone you don’t know - Just being in the mountains - It takes me back to being a boy, just me and my Dad - Giving it your all, getting covered in mud – It is at odds with a risk adverse society - Juniors disappearing, come back at 40 - A desire to lose oneself in the hills, whether by design or not - It isn’t all about the racing: the racing has changed, the running hasn’t - Whether the sport grows, withers or dies. That doesn’t matter. All that matters is that the fells will always be there for those who appreciate them - A sense of place, of territory, the connection between man and the land - I’ve known him for 20 years. I don’t know what his day job is, I just know he’s a runner - The fact that you discover something new about the country, and yourself, each time you run - Feeling naked amid your surroundings - Free from the world - I can be on my Monday morning meat wagon to Central London, close my eyes and see myself bounding over Green Gable - A sense of freedom and abandonment - A tasty post-race, post-bath glass of Laphroig - The welcoming attitude that all of you show to new members - Running solo in the hills. How can that not be free spirited? - The isolation, the beauty, the slightly bonkersness of it - Some times fast, sometimes slow; sometimes alone, sometimes with company - No barriers for anyone who wants to take the sport up - The people; competitors, organisers, supporters. All are welcoming and friendly - The wilderness and the sense of the power of nature – Don’t tell me all kids are fat and lazy, just look at them go - Feeling totally alive in every nerve and sinew - The hand offered as you hesitate at a river crossing - Falling and being lifted back on my feet by two men who didn't break their stride - Where human nature and the environment meet in a friendly fight - The pint in the pub afterwards, the banter, the mates, the tales - Running past someone in full winter gear: crampons, ice axe, the lot. And I'm wearing shorts - No pins, no toilets, no entry fee, no prizes - Flagging the course, racing it, then picking up the flags again - The old guy who once raced came along to watch. Nobody realises how good he was - The fast and the slow, everyone cheering on everyone else as they race straight up and down the fell - Fatigue, fellowship, pain, beauty, and an uncomplicated relationship with nature.

What would you say?

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Beautiful:cool: Should be on the poetry thread, oh, it is:D