Anyone tempted to shell out £140 (!) for the new mudclaw?
https://www.inov-8.com/mudclaw-g-260-mens-womens/
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Anyone tempted to shell out £140 (!) for the new mudclaw?
https://www.inov-8.com/mudclaw-g-260-mens-womens/
No - that's just silly money.
I presume they are aiming high on the back of the superior longevity of the graphene soul and kevlar reinforced upper. Yet to see any real evidence for this and in my experience any inov8 shoe with the word 'mesh' in the description of the upper will get trashed in next to no time.
Had to laugh on Facebook when someone pointed out it may well be marketing hype... the response was...
"it's not marketing hype, it's scientifically proven"
The VJ Irocks use the Kevlar technology and seem to be well reviewed and long lasting. A bit cheaper as well. It the Inov8's do match their own hype they could be onto a winner, but are they just playing catchup to what's already out there?
I'm not here to slag off Inov8 by the way, am very much a fan of mudclaws, although recent events have led me to look at alternatives.
In fairness, £140 is pretty standard for shoes now. Salomon have had shoes at that price for years and it's in line with many of inov-8's other models. I'd expected them to be much more expensive.
RRP is also fairly standard compared to most road shoes at the moment (though we live in an age of discounting & I’m hard pushed to find any runner who pays over £100 for any shoes).
The grip thing doesn’t quite, erm, stick for me. For years, climbing shoes have looked for stickier rubber. Granted, shoes now are stickier than they were in the eighties. However, this stickiness is short lived & durability is lower on the most sticky soles.
Also, I’m yet to encounter a climbing shoe that sticks to wet rock - it’s common place in the climbing community to acknowledge that these conditions are less than ideal (& mostly wait until it’s dry). Whilst I’m not suggesting fell runners hold out for a dry day (almost entirely pointless!), good grip on wet rock is anathema - after all, stopping distance on cars/bikes etc is increased in the wet even with a winter tyre on. Learning technique is key (blah blah blah!)
I've been a fan of the Mudclaw since the old grey/red one. (270 or 272?) The 300 is still my favourite shoe for fell runs and would not do a race in anything else. They are currently RRP £115 but you can pick them up easily for £80-£90 perhaps even less if you shop around. I wonder how many will actually be paying the full £140 RRP or if they will get heavily discounted but either way I'm not seeing enough benefit to fork out an additional £30 or so.
fair point, but it is all relative. i believe i have had some fell shoes that are much grippier than others. the first mudclaw i ever had were the ones with grey soles and they were dreadful. other mudclaw were better, and nothing i have tried to date compares with the grip on the VJ Sports iRock2 (Jonathan Alban has said he owes his Glencoe Skyline win to them when he beat Killian who was wearing Salomon and the rocks were wet) - but i haven't tried these new inov8s yet of course.
"it's not marketing hype, it's scientifically proven". "Get a grip" is the response that should be given to anyone stating that!
All of this marketing hype got me rather wound up last night. I'd like to attribute it to the fact I'm jet lagged and over-tired like a toddler, but the phrase "50% stronger, 50% more elastic, 50% harder wearing" is particularly annoying me. 50% more than what?! You would assume the rubber used in previous versions of the shoe?
When I click to "See the science" on inov-8s website, I get a dummies guide to materials testing without actual referral to the ISO or ASTM tests used, any results, or any comparisons. However a media statement from Manchester University back in December states "Our unique formulation makes these outsoles 50% stronger, 50% more stretchy and 50% more resistant to wear than the corresponding industry standard rubber without graphene.” This "industry standard rubber" presumably isn't the rubber used in previous versions of the shoes! Interestingly Manchester Uni have also removed this crucial bit of information from their most recent media statement on 20th June, again leaving you wondering exactly what the new shoes are 50% greater than.
When I have a minute I'm gunna do some searching for the actual science (for my own interest if nothing else). Manchester Uni must be publishing stuff on this given its been partly funded through an EPSRC Impact Acceleration grant and Innovate UK (as in the government research agency not the shoe brand), that's of course unless inov-8 have managed to get some kind of non-disclosure agreement in place pending patents.
Whether it makes a good pair of shoes or not, the science is quite intriguing. In my material mechanical testing knowledge (albeit most of that in crushing rock, rather than trying to create something that will stick to rock), I'm curious as to how you mix something like graphene, which is reportedly the stiffest material known, (young's modulus of ~1 TPa) with something rubber-esque (young's modulus when behaving linearly elastically at small strains of ~0.1 GPa) to produce a material that is "more stretchy"? I'd have thought at the micro level with increasing strain you just get large amounts of shear occurring at the interface between the rubber and graphene particles.
I'm sure there is decades worth of interesting research in to applied rubber technology in the tyre manufacturing industry and other sporting industries such as rock climbing that could be applied to make a seriously grippy pair of running shoes, and that could probably all be done without producing a load of media hype full of buzz words, or committing daylight robbery.
I like it when someone with a bit of knowledge drops it.
The main thing I don't get is how some people can be so excited about a pair of bloody shoes.
Agree ba-ba
As much as a decent pair of shoes is important (I've spent enough time on the Irock thread below, and spent plenty of time trying to find the correct shoes for day-to-day training), i think the main reason people get so hyped up is they always want a shortcut to "success"...... whether that be a magic shoe, gps, food, etc... anything to avoid the hard fact that you need to get out and put the effort in.
You would say that though given you are obviously in the pocket of Big Stone. We know you discovered the secret ingredient to perfect rubber ages ago but you've been suppressing it because you want to keep crushing rocks.
I'm glad you cropped up here because I was going to ask you for your opinion if you made it through epic jet lag to Buttermere on Saturday. I'm glad your suspicions reflect mine, especially with respect to how a non-flexible 2D material is relevant to solving the problem. It seems odd, like using the latest developments in AI as a revolutionary sun screen. Either way, I would be curious to see where their other sole compounds compare to baseline they've tested against.
By the way, you don't even need a patent application for embargoing these IP things. It's a win-win because industry gains the authenticity of academic research groups and the research groups get perfect case studies for "impact" in the REF. I'd be surprised if any publications come out of it. It's likely a thesis will be unembargoed in a few years after the marketing hype has died down.
Matthew
Its good to see that if nothing else being a scientist makes you cynical and sceptical of other peoples "science".
It has also reminded me of the "super friction" adhesives that were created by a student at Stanford a couple of years ago trying to replicate the grip that geckos have.
https://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/...ce-112114.html
I approached the guys at Stanford back then but unfortunately they were more interested in applying the technology to robotics than breathing new life in to my scatty old trainers, so Ive had to go it alone with my own gecko shoes (Ill probably end up marketing them as "G-Series" I think its a bit catchier). Its taken the last couple of years to genetically modify my pet geckos to have large pyramidal shaped feet, but the good news is Ive just successfully managed to transplant the modified geckos feet directly on to the soles of my walshes. They're no longer vegan, but they are exactly 50% better than before. I'll bring them along for you to try tomorrow night!
Mmmh. I wonder what Bill Smith makes of all this.
:D
Good post. I too am left wondering just what is meant by ‘industry standard’. There are, to my mind, a few models of shoes made by a few manufacturers that are specifically marketed as fell shoes - Inov8 (with market share), Walsh (now with a small market share, since the former has really established itself in the last decade) & Salomon (with only a couple of fell-specific models). I’m aware that there are other shoes out there that are worn by fell runners (orienteering shoes without metal dobs, being one example). The aforementioned shoes have very different feel, fit & variation in grip - can an ‘industry standard’ be found amongst this? I’m unconvinced.
Similar marketing claims were made by Adidas when the company started to use Boost cushioning (marketed as having better energy return); Nike have also made claims of energy return benign improved by 4% (or some similar number that has the whiff of bullshit). I’ve worn Adidas shoes both with & without aforementioned cushioning, noting that my improvements were in fact due to better training, rather than spurious marketing claims.
My favourite shoe too. A great all-rounder. They are so good I gambled on a used pair off ebay which turned out to be almost new and then a few months ago I found a brand new pair of the Harrier 3. I am told that the newish Mizuno Wave Hayate 4 is a good trail shoe and the pictures I've seen of it look quite promising,especially the tread which appears quite rugged. May be one for the next birthday!
I'd forgotten all about the graphene hype and was happily enjoying the other thread on people cheaply breathing new life in to their shoes at LSR, then I saw the advert on the backpage of the Fellrunner and was reminded.
Has anyone actually got a pair of the mighty G-Series shoes yet? And if so, are they exactly 50% better in every way than everything else?
In the last few months I've actually heard good reviews of graphene impregnated MTB tyres.
I believe that the graphene Fell shoes had the date put back due to technological issues, and I think the release is supposed to be imminently in the new year.
I won an Inov8 voucher this year, and spent ages trying to find a pair from their huge range of shoes to spend it on. Settled on a pair of road shoes. But some of the stuff in their range is ridiculous.... Parkclaw... shoes for the gym... etc...
I like Inov8 shoes a lot, but, yes, their range is somewhat ridiculous. The names are of course silly and all these slightly different models are just confusing. Although that said, on the topic of park claws a friend of mine has a pair and I think he quite likes them.
I have to say I really don't understand why Inov8 have to have this huge range with loads of marginally different versions of the same shoe. X talon 210, X talon 212, X talon 225, X talon 230...etc
"Ridiculous"?
Well Wayne Edy told me, and he owned the company at the time, that it was to cater to the US market which liked lots of choice and was a lot more important in terms of potential sales than the UK fellrunning market.
Fifteen years ago I was given a pair of the first INOV-8 shoes to critique, when they only made one model, and it seems to me that "bells and whistles" have served INOV-8 rather well since then. :D
My classic Mudclaws fell apart on me on the Kentmere fells today. 260 miles only yet a fair amount of grip left on the soles. Will be trying some different brands this year!
ba-ba that is pretty much identical to what happened to me in the summer. Grip was fine but they fell apart, descending Green Gable at Ennerdale.
Moved onto VJ Irocks (similar to XTalon) and they were great, and currently just bought the new VJ Xtrm.
have tried Irocs in the past, found them a bit baggy at times but I reckon if used correctly will get some mileage out of them.
I've had issues with various Inov-8 uppers having premature ends, and the lighter the shoe, together with wetter terrain, the quicker they go. That said, I've had the same problem with most other lightweight trail and fell shoes, so its not just an Inov 8 thing!
Funnily enough, my long run today was in a pair of Mudclaw 300s - the red and black one with the flatter sole profied and 8mm lugs - and they are still going strong after close to 600 miles with the uppers still looking good. I've also had some of the old Roclite 295s last just as long, but also had some fall apart after a couple of hundred miles!!!
To pick up on GB's point though, my all time favourite Inov-8 shoes remains the original brown Mudroc 290, first bought in early 2004!
Got a pair of the Mudclaw 275 (same grip as the yet to be released graphene). Not had a chance to get out in them yet (illness & family commitments) but the grip looks to be very aggressive indeed.
I like the lightweight X Talons for fit of the uppers (the old blue 190 & the recent orange 210) & found the grip quite good on rock, but lacking on mud. Still got some Walsh that I wear for training & sometimes racing - not as comfortable a fit, but the best grip of any shoe I’ve owned. A bit of me wishes that Walsh had the capital to invest in modernising PBs a little (lighter upper with improved fit, slightly more flexible sole) as they really are a great shoe & it’s a shame to see that they’re not all that popular anymore.
Ah. Someone must have a photo of the original brown ones somewhere? Pre-selfie days that though.....!
Were they the ones with the asymmetric lacing? If so, I went to a shop intending to buy some, decided I didn't like them and came out with yet another pair of Walshes. Didn't get into Inov8 until I bought some Mudclaws in about 2012.
I think the asymmetric lacing was a feature of an early iteration of the Mudclaw.
I sometimes look at photos from races 10 years or so back & notice that folk are almost exclusively shod in Walshes. Over the last few years, almost everyone is in Inov8 (with the odd deviation), though things seem to be opening up a bit - folk in Salomon, VJ, Scott, Hoka etc, & even a few more Walshes again!
Asymmetric lacing was a feature of the Mudclaw 275 - the tiger striped red, black and grey one if I remember correctly. They had the same sole as the Mudclaw 300, but were the "stripped-back" racing version.
Weren't those the 270s? Second pair of inov8 I had after the mudroc.
I stand corrected Pete - they were indeed! I must be getting old :-)