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Are Park Runs Destructive ?
I'm interested in the forums opinion.
In Greater Manchester we have 5 park runs to choose from every Saturday morning.
For those who do not know - These are 5K races and there is no entry fee.
My feeling as a club man is.....Just what is the point of us (the clubs) organising events and paying levies and fees for our athletes anymore - as we can't possibly compete with park run.
If you think i'm misinterpretting things - check out the size of the field at Heaton Park in the morning and then compare it to the size of the field at the Salford 5K in the afternoon.
Old news you might say - but in my opinion it isn't fair and is becomming detremental :confused:
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Thats presuming you only want to run 5K's which most of us dont
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Love Park runs......im at Heaton this sat.......only a bit of fun though,I think there great mass-participation event and anything that gets people running has got to be good.I'd like to think once people get the bug they'd have a go at longer distance races or join us on the fells.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
I am on your side Natty.
As a race organiser, I am not YET directly affected by Park Run - in fact Park Run would say they will help me by stimulating interest in athletics and road races in particular.
However, our 2 road races take 6 months each at least to organise, incur road closure / traffic management costs running in to several thousands each, use around 50 marshalls, first aid cover, permit etc etc etc.
For the more regular club race that aims to race a few hundred quid for the club, that generally will go in to subsidising youth athletics, it must be difficult.
I am against park runs in general, they are getting out of control, and will starve funding to grass roots athletics for what? To get a few joggers out and interested.
Scrap them for me.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Park run is what it is...a run round a park; not a road race or a trail race or whatever. I know people who go to them and it's just a fitness jogging thing, i can't see it enveloping the world of races completely. People have probably been encouraged to organise such events in order to promote healthy living among the nation which if fine by me and i can't see it posing a serious threat to racing. What are we going to do today dear, Harewood trail or run around Hyde Park again?
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Natty
I'm interested in the forums opinion.
In Greater Manchester we have 5 park runs to choose from every Saturday morning.
For those who do not know - These are 5K races and there is no entry fee.
My feeling as a club man is.....Just what is the point of us (the clubs) organising events and paying levies and fees for our athletes anymore - as we can't possibly compete with park run.
If you think i'm misinterpretting things - check out the size of the field at Heaton Park in the morning and then compare it to the size of the field at the Salford 5K in the afternoon.
Old news you might say - but in my opinion it isn't fair and is becomming detremental :confused:
I think they are great
a) allow people an informal route into racing, many think races are just for the very good runners.
b) help fairly much non-runners set goals in training
c) provide nice free time trials for others
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
It's not the park runs that are the problem - it's those damn fell races :mad:
How can the Great North Run (at £4:40 per km) compete with Wasdale (at £0.25 per km)?
And it doesn't stop there :angry:
Some fell races give all the money they raise to a charity - the cheek!
And another thing :sneaky:
It's high time that they added a levy to trainers - all those people looking good wearing trainers or who run in them but never enter a race in their lives. It makes me sick.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
If it gets more people into running, it will mean more people will want to do more races and pay fees to join running clubs. I don't see it as a problem.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
:confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Witton Park
I am on your side Natty.
As a race organiser, I am not YET directly affected by Park Run - in fact Park Run would say they will help me by stimulating interest in athletics and road races in particular.
However, our 2 road races take 6 months each at least to organise, incur road closure / traffic management costs running in to several thousands each, use around 50 marshalls, first aid cover, permit etc etc etc.
For the more regular club race that aims to race a few hundred quid for the club, that generally will go in to subsidising youth athletics, it must be difficult.
I am against park runs in general, they are getting out of control, and will starve funding to grass roots athletics for what? To get a few joggers out and interested.
Scrap them for me.
You make some interesting points there Witton.
I've been a regular at Heaton Park since the beginning and loved the whole park run concept of trying to increase the numbers in running generally.
Up until recently I really hadn't given much thought to the impact of these events on the local clubs. To be honest If anything, I thought Park Run might create a chance for the clubs to promote themselves.
A couple of months ago however, I attempted to promote my own clubs 10K event to Park Run runners. I gave out race entries to every finisher for two weeks on the run. In a follow up exercise, I checked the results of our 10K and the Park Run results for the weeks I gave out the flyers and apart from a handfull of club runners (who would have done our 10k anyway) there was absolutely no uptake from the park runners.
It does not appear to be fair that the clubs have to pay a licence for their races yet park run with its free entry does not. :confused:
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
noel
If it gets more people into running, it will mean more people will want to do more races and pay fees to join running clubs. I don't see it as a problem.
Totally agree, the more people we can get off their sofas and running the better.... I doubt whether a lot of the Park Runners would enter a full blown race anyway so I can't see how it's impacting on race numbers and I don't think there's been a noticeable decline in entries.... stop your moaning.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nikalas
Totally agree, the more people we can get off their sofas and running the better.... I doubt whether a lot of the Park Runners would enter a full blown race anyway so I can't see how it's impacting on race numbers and I don't think there's been a noticeable decline in entries.... stop your moaning.
That is exactly how I felt nikalas - basically anything that gets people off their bottoms and participating in sports and activities has to be a good thing.
but
I have since had it pointed out to me by a number of senior figures in Greater Manchester Athletics whose opinions I greatly respect that unlike races organised by local clubs, Park Run does not have to make any financial contribution to the sport’s governing body, UK Athletics yet they are given a licence.
As Natty says - It would appear that Park Run do not pay for a licence for each race, and do not pay the levies that the local clubs have to pay when we organise races.
In all honesty it does appear to be the case that there is one rule for clubs and and another for Park Run.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
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Originally Posted by
Danbert Nocurry
In all honesty it does appear to be the case that there is one rule for clubs and and another for Park Run.
This is kind of two points really.
1. Are they being treated differently to running clubs? Definitely yes
2. Is it negatively affecting running clubs? I don't think so, as stated above
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
noel
This is kind of two points really.
1. Are they being treated differently to running clubs? Definitely yes
2. Is it negatively affecting running clubs? I don't think so, as stated above
Clearly Park Run is having a positive influence on loads of peoples lives....which has to be a good thing but i genuinely believe it will increasingly negatively affect running clubs.
As i said in my original post - the Salford 5K in Heaton Park (a long established race in the calendar) was definitely affected by the fact that there had been a park run that morning.
Richard Head - I agree we do not all want to do 5Ks but what is to stop Park Run doing a free 10K every Saturday morning - This has already happened in Heaton Park by the way.
In all seriousness there must be people at Salford Harriers wondering just what was the point in organising their 5K event in the park?
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
http://www.eightlane.com/indexforum....page=forum.php
If you have time have a look at this where variuos for and against points are made.
My opinions were not against Park Run. They were more against the corner cutting that allowed events that were set up as informal time trials to become events with results posted in AW and rankings appearing on the Power of 10.
I know that several athletes last winter went down to Park Run 5Ks and didn't turn out in the Red Rose XC for their clubs - they came and watched. So no matter what the organisers of PR say, they will and are having an effect on existing fixtures, no evidence that it is positive and perhaps even taking money out of the sport.
I know that some races have disappeared from the calendar recently - Waddington 10K, Whalley Nab, Kirkham 10K, the almost legendary Chorley 4 miles. That's because generally they became tied up by Loacl Goct, Police, HSE, traffic management etc and are no loner viable.
Park Run cuts many of those corners.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Witton Park
they became tied up by Local Govt, Police, HSE, traffic management etc and are no longer viable.
Park Run cuts many of those corners.
Which means Park Runs are rather good...?
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Might be a Whitton Park run in the future:wink:
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mud
Which means Park Runs are rather good...?
No it doesn't. A lot of clubs used to use races as a means of raising funds to support the activities of the club. In particular paying for young athletes events. The Police and Councils have withdawn support for the races which fund the opportunities for young athletes in their own communities. Parkrun doesn't cater for kids so that's not even an alternative.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Today I was at the NW Relays at Leigh.
They couldn't even manage to close off a few of the car parks at Leigh Sports Village and we had juniors running around with cars pulling out in front of them - and the sight of drivers complaining at the marshalls that they weren't allowing the cars the right of way.
In principal park run sounds great - but it's what the charity shops are to retail - it is unfair competition.
If Blackburn Harriers want to use Witton Park for a race, we have to pay. That's an overhead to start with. We need a permit, we have to bring in first aid (for not less than £100 these days) to fullfill the risk assessment that we have to do.
If Blackburn Harriers want to host the 5K again next tear, we need a £20K budget or the Council support. You can see that for 200 runners it's not viable as a race in itself unless the Borough deem it useful to promote the town.
Strange though how a anti Afghan war demo comes along and they can close off half the town and get a police escort at no cost to those protesters.
Maybe we should send all the 5K runners round next year with a pot of Ski and some knitting needles?
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Witton Park
In principal park run sounds great - but it's what the charity shops are to retail - it is unfair competition.
:rolleyes:
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
I personally think the Park Runs are a great idea, and perfect for people with families (they're early enough to not impact on your weekend).
Club race organisers just need to be flexible and adapt - offer something that Parkrun can't. Answers on a postcard as to what that may be.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
It's not that easy Heathens, as I've said above. Park Run (I assume) isn't paying for the use of the parks it uses - if we tried to do that at Witton, we wouldn't get away with it. £75 before we start.
As clubs, we have responsibilities and have to follow certain procedures, often in place for good reason.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
As one of the original points to this thread was that park may detrimentally affect the number of runners at fell events, is it worth pointing out that there have been many discussions on this forum about the fact we don't want the sport to expand too much in order to protect the environment etc.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nikalas
Totally agree, the more people we can get off their sofas and running the better.... I doubt whether a lot of the Park Runners would enter a full blown race anyway so I can't see how it's impacting on race numbers and I don't think there's been a noticeable decline in entries.... stop your moaning.
I agree, anything to promote general fitness, the rising obesity crisis and consequent ill health/strain on finite NHS resources is a good idea I reckon...also I know loads of very fit people who when you mention fell running say words to the effect of "you run up hills....thats just madness" so not sure we have much to worry about actually
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Read the first post - it's not about the effect on fell running, more about the effect on clubs.
Of course it's unlikely to have any effect on fell running.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
aye...i caught up eventually....but the effect on fell running was mentioned at some point and my points re health are still relevant, it would be a shame if running clubs were effected adversely however some might argue that promoting running might outweigh the costs? alternatively as someone else suggested, clubs could look at new ways in which to compete with such events....anyhow I am no expert but I do think that by making running events less elitist there could be benefits to us all as a society.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Sadly sport is being mixed up with Leisure - the London Marathon and GNR have a lot to answer for when the chicken gets more coverage and credit than the first male Brit. It's no wonder that standards have dropped.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
The lack of red tape attached to Park Runs sounds rather refreshing. Kind of like a fell run, no?
I'd probably join in if they were nearby, nice to know they're always there. There's a midweek multi-terrain club series here in September. Turn up, pay a quid, no faff, run, results and all that malarkey. Great stuff. You could equally argue it's a shame you can't get non-club runners involved in those, it's a great entry into the sport. They're all just different entry points.
Clubs might be threatened in specific circumstance by Park Runs, but attacking them generally is missing the point. It's about running and runners, not clubs. Realistically clubs only cater for quite a small % of People Who Run.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
my wife is a former schools xc champion,(1974)
two children and 35 years later she has started running.
at the park run we turned up at 08.45,short warm up,ran,finished,she was 2nd to last,we were home by 10.
like most new runners she is in awe of proper runners,and the park runs meet her low key approach.
she now has a target of not being 2nd to last,improve her time,then,and only then she wants to make the step up to 'proper races'
i think you will find most of the new runners are suffering from low self esteme,usually brought on by the arrogance of some of the elite runners.
my wife is fortunate that by watching me at fell races she has rubbed shoulders with some of the nicest runners around,yep,the fell runners.
hence her aim for fitness and the ultimate step up,to race a fell race.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Like I say above, sport is being mixed with leisure.
Football is about going to Wembley, cricket playing at Lords, swimming is the Olympics, cycling the Tour de France. The people that get there are produced almost exclusively by a club structure. They have to be - it requires a talented and driven individual to achieve and they need an extensive support network around them.
At our level,even a BG attempt needs support.
Our elite athletes past and present are part of a club system and this system has (in my opinion) been undermined in the last 20 years by Govt led, top down policies handed down through the Sports Quangos to UKA and it's predessesors.
Athletics is in the main a cheap sport - you only need to follow some of the threads on here complaining about the odd higher than normal race entry fee. One reason it is cheap is that club members come together and put on road races, fell races, relays events and track meetings to race a little money to put back in to the club.
The ability to put on such events has been chipped away at over the years. Track costs have risen, road access is far more difficult and incurs more expense. So it is already more difficult for clubs to survive.
Park Run is another, perhaps small initiative chipping away at that.
It is inevitable that in the Manchester area, with 3 Park Runs on every Saturday morning, that attendance at road races and cross country races will be affected. Some road races will go from the calendar, some XC leagues may fold.
Without the race to race funds, clubs may go.
It does not affect me at BBH at the moment and perhaps won't. Bur earlier this year a gentleman from Low Fell Running Club called Alan Elders created a stir when he asked for Parkruns to be boycotted.
"What is the point in clubs organising events and paying levies and fee for their members?...There seems to be one rule for clubs and another for others...Can I suggest your club does not support them or add links to their web pages"
Parkrun get around some of the costs and restrictions by saying they are not races, but timetrials. You can run around whatever time you like. However, they now have official start times, advise that all times given are based on this, so they are a race by all but name.
They appear in the Power of 10 rankings.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
I have sympathy for club events under threat, but going with your analogy you'd also ban middle aged blokes from playing 5-a-side leagues and reporting their results on the web. What about a Race For Life on the same day as a club 5K? Is it alright if I do a sponsored bike ride with my brother or would you prefer me to line up alongside the dual carriageway to enter a Club 10? Just a different catchment I think, you can't make people enjoy club events. Interesting debate though.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Parkruns are here to stay so you better accept that and try to co exist with them. It seems to me that they are a good introduction for newcomers who might be intimidated by the thought of entering an organised race.
Surely quite a few Parkrun regulars will get fed up with running around the same park week after week so will start doing other events once they are more experienced and confident.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
idler
I have sympathy for club events under threat, but going with your analogy you'd also ban middle aged blokes from playing 5-a-side leagues and reporting their results on the web. What about a Race For Life on the same day as a club 5K? Is it alright if I do a sponsored bike ride with my brother or would you prefer me to line up alongside the dual carriageway to enter a Club 10? Just a different catchment I think, you can't make people enjoy club events. Interesting debate though.
Not ban - I've never advocating the banning of Prkrun. I just find it frustrating as a race organiser myself, aware of all the hoops I have to jump through, aware that several races close by have called it a day for the same reaons, and then Parkrun comes along and gets the backing of UKA when UKA is using the money put in to it by the levies raised by club races and membership dues.
If it can stand on it's own 2 feet, let it sort out it's insurance and promotion.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Witton Park
I am on your side Natty.
As a race organiser, I am not YET directly affected by Park Run - in fact Park Run would say they will help me by stimulating interest in athletics and road races in particular.
However, our 2 road races take 6 months each at least to organise, incur road closure / traffic management costs running in to several thousands each, use around 50 marshalls, first aid cover, permit etc etc etc.
For the more regular club race that aims to race a few hundred quid for the club, that generally will go in to subsidising youth athletics, it must be difficult.
I am against park runs in general, they are getting out of control, and will starve funding to grass roots athletics for what? To get a few joggers out and interested.
Scrap them for me.
i must disagree as i started off doing the parkruns and later moved onto joining a club therefore putting money back into grassroots.. i have also recruited other atheletes at parkrun to my club, who not of had the courage to come join if it wasnt for the expierience of parkruns which is very laid back with no pressure . as for doing a free time trial every once in a while for free im all for it, i dont think it will be too destructive at all to club runs as i know club runners with a more serious attitude would much prefer the prestige of doing this type of run... be all, and end all its nice to see more people getting off there backsides and giving it a go...............its fun and free where is the complaint????
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
noel
If it gets more people into running, it will mean more people will want to do more races and pay fees to join running clubs. I don't see it as a problem.
here here!!
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Witton Park
It's not that easy Heathens, as I've said above. Park Run (I assume) isn't paying for the use of the parks it uses - if we tried to do that at Witton, we wouldn't get away with it. £75 before we start.
As clubs, we have responsibilities and have to follow certain procedures, often in place for good reason.
is that because clubs are a profit making organisation and the parkruns are not???
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
the club runners who use the park runs use them as a sustained training session,on a measured route,which is timed,in a safe atmostphere,at a time that enables normal family life to continue the rest of the weekend.when the 'proper'races come along they are better prepared and perform with the knowledge the hard work has been done.
as much as we would all like to race every weekend at every available opportunity we have families to think of.
i work shifts so any kind of quality session is a bonus,park runs allow that,but if time allows i will always pick a race.
my own thoughts are use them to your own advantage,even to the point of recruiting new members.
its only the same as a football club seeing a talented individual kicking the ball around in the park and getting him/her to join a well organised set up.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
I've just caught up with this thread. I started and organise Bramhall parkrun which in turn encouraged the other Manchester parkruns so I'm in a position to answer some of the points raised. As a runner I also use the parkrun in the same way as Dylan and have completed over 50.
First I'd suggest that whether you feel positive or negative about parkruns just have a go at one first. You can get an impression from this video (Bramhall 9 Oct).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGqoHg8BEuQ
So, Wasdale it aint! And it isn't going to ever compete with a XC fixture or real 10k race. It is a free training race for club runners. And for many novice runners it is a way of progressing beyond one off attempts at GMR, Race For Life etc. to doing something more regular and competitive. For all it is low key running fun that doesn't take up much time.
I was certainly originally concerned that a free weekly race might detract from the efforts of local clubs. In practice though the reverse is true. Wilmslow RC and Stockport Harriers have gained about 20 members each from the event. We always promote club races and the experience so far is that numbers at Wilmslow races at least have increased with runners recruited at the parkrun. Good athletes have been brought into club running and club races including some who are returning after years out of the sport.
parkrun doesn't receive any special treatment. I just applied to the park to hold an event in the same way as anyone else and had to provide the same H&S documentation etc. The council chose not to charge for use of the park as we're not charging the runners and clearly they see the health benefits.
UKA provide the standard insurance as they do for any affiliated club race. parkrun is just treated as an affiliated club. These days the unattached £2 levy is kept by the race organiser rather than paid to UKA so the fact that we don't charge is irrelevant for UKA funding. And FWIW parkrun receives no direct public funding.
Finally, there are actually very few local 5k races. The Cheshire series (Bowdon, Dunham Massey etc.) is a sell out. Salford 5k is the exception but then again that is part of a series that is supported by public funding.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Good post, very informative
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RunningBob
I've just caught up with this thread. I started and organise Bramhall parkrun which in turn encouraged the other Manchester parkruns so I'm in a position to answer some of the points raised. As a runner I also use the parkrun in the same way as Dylan and have completed over 50.
First I'd suggest that whether you feel positive or negative about parkruns just have a go at one first. You can get an impression from this video (Bramhall 9 Oct).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGqoHg8BEuQ
So, Wasdale it aint! And it isn't going to ever compete with a XC fixture or real 10k race. It is a free training race for club runners. And for many novice runners it is a way of progressing beyond one off attempts at GMR, Race For Life etc. to doing something more regular and competitive. For all it is low key running fun that doesn't take up much time.
I was certainly originally concerned that a free weekly race might detract from the efforts of local clubs. In practice though the reverse is true. Wilmslow RC and Stockport Harriers have gained about 20 members each from the event. We always promote club races and the experience so far is that numbers at Wilmslow races at least have increased with runners recruited at the parkrun. Good athletes have been brought into club running and club races including some who are returning after years out of the sport.
parkrun doesn't receive any special treatment. I just applied to the park to hold an event in the same way as anyone else and had to provide the same H&S documentation etc. The council chose not to charge for use of the park as we're not charging the runners and clearly they see the health benefits.
UKA provide the standard insurance as they do for any affiliated club race. parkrun is just treated as an affiliated club. These days the unattached £2 levy is kept by the race organiser rather than paid to UKA so the fact that we don't charge is irrelevant for UKA funding. And FWIW parkrun receives no direct public funding.
Finally, there are actually very few local 5k races. The Cheshire series (Bowdon, Dunham Massey etc.) is a sell out. Salford 5k is the exception but then again that is part of a series that is supported by public funding.
Bob - just out of interest - before Park Run, I wonder how many organised races did you do a year and since park run how many - that would be a test. I imagine that as you have completed over 50 it's had an impact on your attendance at fee paying races.
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Re: Are Park Runs Destructive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RunningBob
UKA provide the standard insurance as they do for any affiliated club race. parkrun is just treated as an affiliated club. These days the unattached £2 levy is kept by the race organiser rather than paid to UKA so the fact that we don't charge is irrelevant for UKA funding. And FWIW parkrun receives no direct public funding.
Clubs (and race organisers) don't keep the unattached levy - that's a misconception.
As an UKA affiliated club we have to pay £25 for a permit for every road race that we organise. We then have to pay an amount to UKA based on the number of runners that ran in the race and not on the number of unattached runners.
So if we have a race with a few hundred runners, we already have incurred a significant cost.
This system hugely favours the mass races and undoubtedly was cooked up by the London Marathon / Great Run lot - self interest most definitely.
If that applied to each and every Park Run, you would have a fixed overhead for your permit and insurance through UKA of between £50 and £300 per race.
So no - Parkrun isn't treated as an affiliated club in the way that you outline - and your "free" permit and insurance is in effect public funding as the cover comes from UKA.