Training Advice please

Hi,
I'm in the position now where I have a little more time to train. I'm wondering how best to use that time. Currently I run 5 x week, about an hour at a time, maximum 90 minutes once a week.It's all off road and about 500m average a day. I get a couple of gym sessions in during the week where I'll do a 30 minute interval session on a bike plus resistance training and/or a circuits session.

I now have another few hours free but still unable to get out running for more than 90 minutes. What would be the best way to boost my fitness. My goals are to develop more endurance as I tend to do AM AL races. Should I do more bike work, I don't like treadmills, or should I just get out and run more-I can do two 60 minute sessions a day?

Any advice appreciated, I'm 47 and trying to hold back the ?inevitable decline.

Neil

Hello Neilly...

My opinion (for whatever it's worth) is you don't want to add in too many more 'hard' sessions. I'm in a similar boat to you, 90% of my races are AL/AM/BL, and with racing on average every three weeks, I can only manage two 'hard' running sessions a week, possibly three in a gap between races, otherwise I can't recover.

I do train every day, or at least 6 days a week, but any additional hard sessions I do are cross-training, either the stairclimber or the cross-trainer, etc. Otherwise my other sessions are steadier runs.

My caveat for this info is that the two dedicated hard sessions must be quality sessions. And I also comment as someone who does not have access to the fells unless racing, so my hard sessions are road/track/grass based. Otherwise I'm in the gym.

If I had regular access to the fells I may well take a more old school approach and run hard on the fells a lot more, with a lot less cross-training. However hard sessions on the flat are very fast for me and I can't blast them out day after day at this stage.

I await someone else to comment who has some real knowledge, please pay more attention to them than me....!

Pete

Thanks Pete,
Every time I try to ramp up my training I always end up injuring myself so you're probably right about not overdoing it. I'll probably use the extra time just to get out on the hills and enjoy myself.

Get a bike ride in.
You run and gym so the obvious other cross training method to complement your fitness is cycling.
Mountain or road biking, either will do.
You will be surprised how much better you climb and a good 60min effort is perfect a couple of times per week.

For every hour you run you should do an hour of Strength and Conditioning, otherwise injury is just around the corner. And use body weight and free weights, not machines.

One day of speedwork, but no more than 20min,one Tempo run, no more than an hour, the rest all aerobic,the long run no more than 1/3 of your weeks total and do not increase your totals distance or time by more than 10% and every 4th week ease back.
eg. 4:30:00
4 x 5min with 3min recovery + warm up cool down total about 60:00
60:00 tempo
90:00 long run
60:00 aerobic
following week increase to 4:57:00 and so on.Thats my little system,but just read about Ed Whitlock who at 74 ran a sub 3hr marathon and did nothing but run for 3hr each day no weights stretching, core work just ran steady, so find what works for you and do it.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

For every hour you run you should do an hour of Strength and Conditioning, otherwise injury is just around the corner. And use body weight and free weights, not machines.

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Out of interest, why not machines? I've always been told body weights & free weights are better, but I've no idea why

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Originally Posted by Free Ian Brown

Out of interest, why not machines? I've always been told body weights & free weights are better, but I've no idea why

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The theory is that by lifting free weights you are strengthening not only the primary muscle, but also the stabilising muscles, joints, ligaments, etc, which all assist the main muscle when you lift.

By using machines you are often isolating the one muscle and not strengthening any of the connecting muscles, ligaments, etc.

For example on a bench press you work the chest, but your shoulders, arms, core, and even your legs to a small extent are stabilising you. If you use a chest press machine you are probably taking a bit away from the exercise.

There is also a theory that using a machine forces you to follow a "fixed path" for the exercise, one that might not be natural or comfortable.

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Originally Posted by Free Ian Brown

Out of interest, why not machines? I've always been told body weights & free weights are better, but I've no idea why

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As Travs said. As we get older, and our testosterone level falls away, we need to do more in the way of S+C to maintain strength. And remember, alcohol has the opposite effect on muscle that training and testosterone have. Unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Free Ian Brown

Out of interest, why not machines? I've always been told body weights & free weights are better, but I've no idea why

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Indeed. I'd like those who preach the superiority of free and body weights to show me an exercise that will work the calf muscles harder than a calf raise machine; or an exercise that works the quads harder than a leg extension machine. And so on......

Then there is the safety factor. Those who don't have the assistance of spotters never push themselves hard enough with free weights in some exercises. Look at the bench press. People stop far short of fatigue in that exercise because they don't want a big weight stuck on their chests. No such problem with a good quality bench press machine.

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Originally Posted by CL

Indeed. I'd like those who preach the superiority of free and body weights to show me an exercise that will work the calf muscles harder than a calf raise machine; or an exercise that works the quads harder than a leg extension machine. And so on......

Then there is the safety factor. Those who don't have the assistance of spotters never push themselves hard enough with free weights in some exercises. Look at the bench press. People stop far short of fatigue in that exercise because they don't want a big weight stuck on their chests. No such problem with a good quality bench press machine.

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I don't think anybody would try to suggest that machines don't work the muscles. Of course they do, as you quite rightly say. However our bodies work in a chain of connecting muscles, joints, and other bits (as you can see I'm not being too scientific here!).

Using a leg extension will undoubtedly strengthen the quads, but if you only strengthen the primary muscles and nothing in between, this is not how the body works. Which is why, for example squats would be a better general excercise as it works the full leg to various extents, as well as the arse, and the core.

You may well lift more with a bench press machine, but doing a free weight bench press at potentially a lower weight will (in my opinion) be a better exercise for your body overall. I would suggest that doing the bench press with free weights has pinpointed somewhere in the chain where you are not strong enough to lift heavier, and you are just bypassing this by using a machine all the time.

I certainly use machines to target individual muscles occasionally, but your day-to-day set of exercises are probably best off being compound type movements with free weights where possible.

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Originally Posted by CL

Indeed. I'd like those who preach the superiority of free and body weights to show me an exercise that will work the calf muscles harder than a calf raise machine; or an exercise that works the quads harder than a leg extension machine. And so on......

Then there is the safety factor. Those who don't have the assistance of spotters never push themselves hard enough with free weights in some exercises. Look at the bench press. People stop far short of fatigue in that exercise because they don't want a big weight stuck on their chests. No such problem with a good quality bench press machine.

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My two-penneth worth.

Agree that the calf raise machine is excellent for a straight leg calf raise.

Completely disagree on the safety of free weights. You can very safely push yourself (without a spotter) with free weights if you use correct technique and the intended safety equipment - mainly a power cage. If you are unsure what this is or how to use it then ask an instructor to show you, or take a look at stronglifts.com.

In my opinion the leg extension machine should be avoided or used with extreme caution. There are a number of problems with it; any machine with a hinge is unlikely to line up precisely with your own joints (think of the implications of that when using heavy loads to the point of failure), even when perfectly aligned it places shear forces on the knee joint, it is an isolation exercise (generally not brilliant for functional strength and can create muscle imbalances) and can put the back into an unnatural position.

If you follow a proper strength training routine built around the free weight squat I can guarantee you won't be worrying about not pushing yourself to failure on isolation exercises!

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Originally Posted by Travs

I don't think anybody would try to suggest that machines don't work the muscles. Of course they do, as you quite rightly say. However our bodies work in a chain of connecting muscles, joints, and other bits (as you can see I'm not being too scientific here!).

Using a leg extension will undoubtedly strengthen the quads, but if you only strengthen the primary muscles and nothing in between, this is not how the body works. Which is why, for example squats would be a better general excercise as it works the full leg to various extents, as well as the arse, and the core.

You may well lift more with a bench press machine, but doing a free weight bench press at potentially a lower weight will (in my opinion) be a better exercise for your body overall. I would suggest that doing the bench press with free weights has pinpointed somewhere in the chain where you are not strong enough to lift heavier, and you are just bypassing this by using a machine all the time.

I certainly use machines to target individual muscles occasionally, but your day-to-day set of exercises are probably best off being compound type movements with free weights where possible.

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Neither does the squat work all the chain of muscles. It hardly does anything for the hamstrings and calf muscles. It also does very little for the quads in the top part of the movement. To train these muscles effectively so an imbalance of strength doesn't occur you have to use machines for best results.

I was never suggesting that you could use a leg extension to train the hamstrings or calves or buttocks. Or even that you should avoid a balanced routine. I'm saying that some machines should be used if you want to develop optimal strength throughout the body. In fact free weight and body weight exercises used in isolation create the very problems you wrote about.

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Originally Posted by Robola

My two-penneth worth.

Agree that the calf raise machine is excellent for a straight leg calf raise.

Completely disagree on the safety of free weights. You can very safely push yourself (without a spotter) with free weights if you use correct technique and the intended safety equipment - mainly a power cage. If you are unsure what this is or how to use it then ask an instructor to show you, or take a look at stronglifts.com.

In my opinion the leg extension machine should be avoided or used with extreme caution. There are a number of problems with it; any machine with a hinge is unlikely to line up precisely with your own joints (think of the implications of that when using heavy loads to the point of failure), even when perfectly aligned it places shear forces on the knee joint, it is an isolation exercise (generally not brilliant for functional strength and can create muscle imbalances) and can put the back into an unnatural position.

If you follow a proper strength training routine built around the free weight squat I can guarantee you won't be worrying about not pushing yourself to failure on isolation exercises!

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Are you arguing that the leg extension puts more strain on the knees than squats?

I'm not against free weight exercises and I'm aware of the safety measures when using free weights. But the average trainee will not have access to these in most gyms. Therefore to train safely whilst keeping the intensity and confidence high one must use machines.

Just one other point. In most cases using a cage with free weights nearly always decreases the range of motion in an exercise. That can happen with machines but its more easily compensated/adjusted for.

It's not just about strengthening the muscles though. What about everything between your muscles.

Although I tend to agree with you in part... If you are a regular runner then you are probably doing enough during the runs themselves to strengthen your joints and ligaments, and some supplemental machine work is only going to benefit you.

Think you'll find if you go "arse to the ground" on your squats, you'll be bringing your hamstrings into play quite enough.

I can completely understand the need to target specific muscles, hence the need to use machines, and not everybody has the knees/mobility/balance to perform a correct squat.... But to a newcomer to strength work, I would always point them in the direction of working on light squats before pointing them towards the machines.

For the record my leg specific strength workout includes only squats and standing calf raises, although admittedly I do sometimes hit the machines for a quick blast. Although I come from a kickboxing background so I do already have a decent 'base' of strength in my legs.

Yes, a correctly performed squat puts very little stress on the knees. If somebody is unable to perform a squatting motion correctly then they would arguable benefit far more from mobility exercises than lifting weights of any description.

I would say that for some people machines give a false sense of confidence and that they don't really need to concentrate on form at all. The number of people I see in the gym on phones etc while performing exercises is increasing all the time. This applies to both machines and free weights, but if you're holding a barbell you can't fiddle with a screen!

The bars on a cage do require careful placement but they should not restrict your movement at all.

I guess the message is that they all have their place, learn to use the stuff correctly, build up very slowly and don't spend too much time there as running is more fun!

Leg extension machines are rubbish, too much shear force on the knee joint. I've always liked the 45 degree inclined leg press personally, less stress on the lumbar spine, but that's just me and my bad back!

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Originally Posted by Travs

It's not just about strengthening the muscles though. What about everything between your muscles.

Although I tend to agree with you in part... If you are a regular runner then you are probably doing enough during the runs themselves to strengthen your joints and ligaments, and some supplemental machine work is only going to benefit you.

Think you'll find if you go "arse to the ground" on your squats, you'll be bringing your hamstrings into play quite enough.

I can completely understand the need to target specific muscles, hence the need to use machines, and not everybody has the knees/mobility/balance to perform a correct squat.... But to a newcomer to strength work, I would always point them in the direction of working on light squats before pointing them towards the machines.

For the record my leg specific strength workout includes only squats and standing calf raises, although admittedly I do sometimes hit the machines for a quick blast. Although I come from a kickboxing background so I do already have a decent 'base' of strength in my legs.

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But in the low part of the squat you're not working the hamstrings in any meaningful way. If the squat is an exercise for the quads and lower back it won't being doing much for the hamstrings except a little towards the top of the movement.

That's the problem. If you do only squats you've created a weak link in the hamstring area and for a runner that is a bad thing because running makes good use of the hamstring area. The only way you can strengthen the hamstrings effectively is with machines. Not even straight leg deadlifts contract the hamstrings fully.

Leg extensions and leg curls are superb exercises which should complement a free weight workout on the legs.

One other thing on my mind. This argument that you shouldn't do leg exts but you should do squats because leg exts produce shearing forces but squats don't isn't true. What's the difference between the two exercises? The leg ext rotates the lower leg about the knee. The squat rotates the upper leg and body about the knee. The leg extension has the weight at the end of the rotating part and so does the squat. The rotating weight arm on the leg ext is fixed but the rotating weight arm (your body weight plus a barbell) on the squat isn't.

It's clear from this comparison that any loss of balance on the squat can have serious consequences. But you can't lose your balance on a leg extension because the movement arm is fixed. That's why machines are safer. There are no significant balance issues to worry about.

I've no formal qualifications in physical training etc, can only go on my experience and what I've been taught. And I have to disagree with some of your points. I think that's pretty clear from the previous posts, so I'll refrain from going round in circles!

But go out and do a heavy session of hamstring curls on a machine. Then attempt to do your usual level of squats. Then re-assess whether your hamstrings are needed for your squats.

I think the best case scenario is to have squats as your go-to exercise, and yes certainly some supplemental machine work, if necessary, to help with any specific weaknesses. But I guess most runners have limited time in the gym and want the most "bang for their buck" and in their case I'd point them in the way of squats. The additional benefit being they can be performed without access to a gym if necessary.

Ex competitive powerlifter weighing in. :)

The signals that free weights sends to your body, particularly compound multi joint movements like squats and deadlifts are entirely different to isolation exercises (machines). Particularly when it comes to neurological efficiency and hormone response. One's not better than the other, but they produce entirely different strength gains.

For an opinion from a running expert: http://tim.blog/2017/05/07/ryan-flah...omment-1545807

He goes into a lot of detail in the podcast about how he strength trains runners.

Its sucks when we get older because we slow down and testarone level will fall hope i can be young again

Mike-T is a good sort, he gives some really good advice on the forum. But when he advises doing one hour of strength and conditioning for every hour spent running and to avoid exercise machines then I think he's not only wrong but reckless in his advice.

So you spend an hour running one day and combine it with an hours s&c. So that's two hours of exercise a day. And what about those who spend two hours a day running? They'd be spending four hours in total on exercise. And so on until you get the Bob Graham loons who would have to do the round in 12 hours to ensure they got the other 12 hours of s&c in!

Strength training is not an endurance contest. It can be developed very quickly from 20-40 minutes per week, even less in some. But it needs to be hard. And if you've got kids then find someone you trust to coach them in the gym once a week. Get them on the resistance machines and free weights. There is no better investment for their health. When I was young they warned against it because they thought it might stunt growth. But hey jumping down from trees and drain pipes wasn't much good for growth plates either but we still did it and landed in adulthood in fine fettle.