I'm a working man and just want my holiday.
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I'm a working man and just want my holiday.
I used to go to virgin records on new street in Birmingham, his first business , he was serving customers way back then, and would chat to any of us. Pleasant enough, The word I would use to describe him is “driven”
The dirty tricks played by BA and lord king on virgin were a disgrace.
I was coming back from there when the tavern in the town pub blew, just round the corner, courtesy IRA. The first of three I was close to. It’s why my hatred of communist creep apologists like Corbyn and McDonnell runs deep.
His first business was mail order. He took cash from buyers on sale but didn't have to pay the record companies for 90 days (Not the only business to do that of course) and IIRC he omitted to pay any tax until he was found out - but by then he could move into shops.
Your loathing of Corbyn et al is, of course, admirable and totally justified and indicative of the sound judgement you can (often) demonstrate!:)
Virgin Atlantic employs 8000 people. That’s well over 100000 man years employment.
That’s is billions in wages, tax, national insurance.
It also puts a fortune into supply industries.
I recollect from his accounts he owns 25 percent? of his fleet book value , which at 100 million an aircraft is eyewatering.
Far from “ snake oil “ virgin is recognised to be a quality offering in a market in which his US competitors hide from their creditors behind chapter 11. So from unfair competition from BA, he now has unfair competition from the US. No wonder he loses money, the surprise is how little not how much. He also cares. If you have a serious customer gripe about virgin, you may well get a call from RB. Similar to bannatyne in that regard.
Given how manifestly unfair corporation tax is, in every regard, and capital allowances in particular, I’m not surprised he leases.
As for an agenda Graham, I am just pro enterprise,
and pissed at how the public sector always pretends it is hard done but always on far better terms. Take the number of 100k plus salaries in the average university or council. It is scandalous. The public sector is presently furloughed on full pay. The private sector gets 80 percent. Not to mention public sector pensions, whose average retirement age is 60. It is manifestly unfair on those who have to earn the money that pays for it all.
So only the question is : would you rather have UK jobs and airline, or would you rather give it to the US? Then we would inevitably be held hostage to whatever prices they decide to milk our market, you choose.
These big enterprises are very hard to start, so easy to let go.
His partner in virgin is delta. They got bailed by the US, with specific and no doubt targeted condition of not funding non US airlines( ie prevents delta helping out)
We should simply bail Virgin, with grants not loans.
I suggest you read today's The Times page 45 on Mr Branson and Virgin Atlantic.
The Daily Telegraph reports (page 31) that Virgin Australia owes £3.5 billion to 12,000 creditors. But it is now in bankruptcy protection so the beard will be OK on Neckar.
I wholeheartedly agree about bloated salaries in councils and universities (not sure where you went - Imperial College?).
I worked for a plc.
I don’t know if you understand accounts, but valued on going concern basis in last years accounts
Virgin Australia still had 600mn net book value , ( ie positive value) although was losing hundreds millions a year.
Value any business on non going concern basis, all leases and debts immediately payable with contingent liabilities, it never looks pretty.
Branson only had a small holding. 10 percent?
It shows what a tough business airlines are.
Not sure leaving quantas as sole big player is good for Australia.
But consider if these airlines go bust, then airbus will fold as well. Where does it stop?
Avoiding Contagion is the reason UK should fund virgin.
Apart from the jobs and tax those people pay.
EasyJet needs to cancel orders for a lot of planes.
I refuse to read the times after last weeks disgraceful article on government response to corona.
Noted. Well the FT is the "best" newspaper we have but it is a bit expensive for this pensioner.
Branson does only have 10%.
And it is Qantas. It is an acronym. Have you never been to Australia? :)
I recognise your arguments but, with respect, you always seem to argue death and despondency and do not take account of (admittedly unknown) reactive change. People respond to events and nobody can forecast with any accuracy what those responses will be because they are dynamic.
So you may think all is lost but then along will come someone with a compass.
So have faith in deus ex machina !
I’m sure you would, you are a decent bloke stagger.
Try telling our MPs. They just accepted a pay rise.
Their pensions are such that average MP will take out more than they ever pay in tax, by a very big margin. Worst tax dodgers there are. ( other than MEPs who are worse)
In my own way I am shovelling money into poor of local community. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
I asked my MP several times what they are contributing personally, answer Nada. Nothing. Zilch. Is Happy to play Father Christmas but only with other people’s money. Needless to say is a corbynista.
The original virgin store was at the far end of Corporation St. and later moved to Bull Street. The first mega store was then on the corner of the two before the last incarnation was opened in High Street. I don't think there ever has been one on new St and certainly not around the corner from the tavern in the town in 1974.
Amazing how the memory plays tricks on you as you age, often distorting history to support your own views.
True. It was possibly corporation street. Don’t remember exactly where.
I recollect going up stairs, row of seats across the window,
Turntables fed headphones for each one. Counter across the back.
these places are no more than a few hundred metres from each other,and the rotunda, site of the bomb, so I can’t see what point you are trying to make: indeed close too is Birmingham odeon, scene of many epic concerts. No idea what road that is on either. Saw gong and steve hillage play there, some of Branson’s early protégés. They were weird.
Did you know that area then?
Used to go into a place called oasis, as well , an upstairs gloomy indoor market, same group of people drifted Between the two. It wasn’t far from the station, which was new street. No idea if it is still there. Full of the smell of joysticks covering over weed. Days of afghan coats and loons. But then, I’m old enough to remember the dying days of the old snow hill station and the Hare Krishna lot handing out flowers. That is a long time ago. Over 50 years.
And I wasn’t supporting any views other than having been served by Branson, and mooching round central brum as a teenager.
It was “hip” to go there, even if you couldn’t afford the records.
I did indeed go there many times.
I tend to defer to the expert advise of Mr Branson.
In 2009 when British Airways faced some issues having posted a £400m loss, he urged the Government not to offer them a bailout, saying the airline was not worth much anymore and that Virgin and others were standing by to take over their routes, slots and recruit their staff.
And there was I thinking you were a thinking man , not a consumer of any lefty tosh you come upon. Ah well.
Now study actual history, the two situations could not be more different.
BA waged a continuous campaign of dirty tricks used against virgin to undermine their failing airline, eg stealing hacked information from their customer database to switch sell customers, even claiming some virgin flights were cancelled. Branson had every right to be angry.
He was also libelled personally years before by lord king. Memories die hard.
Also funding BA would have distorted competition, and Branson was right to contest it.
Branson has had to fight too much of this, eg Competing in the US is inherently unfair because of trying to compete with chapter 11 airlines who don’t pay their bills,
Now is completely different.
Virgin has a problem because governments shut it down.
Government created the problem. Government must solve it.
Remember Freddie Laker
Oh. So not because it is a loss making airline with few assets?
And I do like Willie Walsh!
~~~~
International Airlines Group, the owner of Virgin Atlantic’s bitter rival British Airways, is expected by industry analysts to be highly unlikely to seek any government support.
Willie Walsh, IAG’s chief executive, said last month it was not for taxpayers to support airlines when the shareholders of those airlines were not prepared to do so.
(Edited)
SMART targets are used regularly.
How smart was the governments target of the number of test that would be carried out buy the end of April??
The UK government has pledged to do 100,000 coronavirus tests a day by the end of April, but was managing about 20,000 with a week to go.
The one on Corporation Street where you went upstairs.... wasn't that Tower Records?
Certainly remember going upstairs in Tower Records very early 2000's to buy rave tickets...
It is a rich airline compared to most of the US airlines!
If 300 million is few assets, I’d be happy to have only a few assets, as I think would you!
But losing tens a year isn’t good.
Airlines are a dreadful business. Too much undercutting, by bankrupt airlines.
Monarch I think was stupid.
There is a generation of people who will pay 25 percent on top for a service with big seats and frills.
Servicing ex pats and older sun seekers.
So it could have been smaller but profitable.
Monarch tried to compete in a race to the bottom.
Virgin has done OK by staying a
Premium service, but they are vulnerable to every world shock.
This was definitely Virgin. It was wacky and new.
As indeed was
The idea of listening to your own choice of album , it was unheard of till he did it.
I can’t remember whether it was a full flight of steps or just a handful.
I just remember steps. The window side and later right hand wall had about 3-4 seats each, all with own turntable.( right hand had album boxes till then) I’m speaking of mid seventies. The days Steve hillage struck out on his own from gong.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52382786
Oh dear. Maybe some of the political figures should engage brain before opening mouth.
Like Oracle mentioned, too many counting their pensions pots and not focusing on the here and now.
Yes that was Tower records - now urban outfitters.
The original virgin store from the 1970s was the other end of corporation St. Down by the law courts and central hall as was. I remember it being there but was too young to really count myself a customer. I did frequent the Bull St shop which had a basement with old sofas where you could hang out and listen to whatever they were plugging at the time. Virgin was a breath of fresh air at that time - the only place I could readily get hold of what were then (and probably still are) relatively obscure LPs. I think me and a couple of mates probably bought nearly all their early US punk, psychodelia and garage (not the modern one - it used to mean something different then!) When short of cash, which was most of the time, we would take to hiding any rare records in obscure sections - easy listening didn't see much action - and then picking them up when we got some money.
Most Saturday afternoons were spent in there, followed by a mooch around Oasis Market and a pot of tea at Woolworths until we got thrown out. Pre-pub age, this was about as exciting as it got in Brum..
I'm aware of the early 90s. Around the time BA's profits were in the 100s of millions and Virgin were trading at a loss.
The cost of the early 90s shenanigans were a few million an yes dirty tricks, and they paid for them, but Branson was an early form of virtue signaller. My airline is much better, more ethical etc than your airline.
Branson didn't leave it there. He tried for years to take them for 100s of millions in the States and it got kicked out.
In the mid 90s BA were on of my share "punts" when I first started to dabble. I did OK. Bought in, sold at a decent profit a couple of years later and then managed to pick them up cheap not long after and sell again at a profit.
My beef was how BA had been shafted by the EU Commission, Commissioner Kinnock at the time. BA led an action against Air France at the ECJ along with Lufthansa.
They won.
By a signature post case, Kinnock retrospectively reversed about 4 years of legal process.
Yes that's just where i thought i remembered TOwer being!
The Bull Street one, was that the one almost on the corner of Corporation Street, opposite where the Wetherspoons is now? in the late 90's/early 2000's was also a rave/dance music outlet downstairs, and had loads of decks set up downstairs to try-before-you-buy the vinyl.
I'm sure at that time it was called something like The Depot, then at some point it changed to Tempest Records... gone now of course...
I’ve just found a pic on a Facebook group of the shop as I think it was.
There were a couple of steps up , under an arch , then a small door on the right. Pokey place.
It seems to be a solicitors now. They’ve moved the door to the right of what was the window, so the entrance now is straight off the road. It wasn’t way back when.
They had hacked virgins computers, and were switch selling passengers telling them the virgin flights were cancelled. That’s not shenanighans, it is illegal.
Branson always has had trouble getting the U.K. establishment to play fair.
Civil servants took it on themselves to cheat.
He was cheated by BA, cheated in the train tenders, cheated in the lottery award. Even the NHS cheated him. Yet lefties put that down as him suing. All he wanted was the ethical tender process promised in law.
Why should he take it lying down when they cheat?
Hardly virtue signalling. His airline was better, the passengers thought so.
The EU has always cheated too.
[QUOTE=Oracle;660249]They had hacked virgins computers, and were switch selling passengers telling them the virgin flights were cancelled. That’s not shenanighans, it is illegal.
/QUOTE]
From what I can recall, Virgin needed to subcontract their system to BA. They didn't have a Departure Control System.
Virgin had their customers personal details added so they could contact them re any delays etc. That was something airlines didn't do at the time.
So it wasn't hacking in the sense we know. The information was there with BA as the airport.
Yes it was wrong, but BA ended up flying Virgin passengers for free as they had no endorsement.
Sort of....
It would have been late seventies and into the eighties. There was still the odd stall selling hippy stuff but that was intermingled with punk, heavy rock gear, alternative fashion and various counter-culture outlets. Later on the new romantic scene kicked in when Barbarellas was the place to be seen and it was never the same again.
Branson is complex.
He clearly is a showman.
He’s had successes and failures.
He is marmite, and the British establishment hate him.
I admire anyone who creates 10000 jobs.
But as for the dirty tricks, it’s all true: read Martyn Gregory’s book.
It was serious, deliberate and nasty. BA determined to put him out of business. On that, I expect bower to agree. Hard to disagree when it becomes high court evidence in excruciating detail.
So apparently there will be a compulsory quarantine introduced to air arrivals into the UK "in early may"... but until then, and for the past however many weeks, thousands of people a day are flying into UK airports, then going wherever they like...
And some UK budget airlines are opening up flights again into Europe shortly...
But don't go the park/beach/fell...