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Thread: 2010 Championship

  1. #21
    Senior Member WillMarsh's Avatar
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    Re: 2010 Championship

    Quote Originally Posted by FellJunior View Post
    And your alternative workable proposal based on the current profile of junior fell running i.e. number of runners, split of boys/girls, number of clubs, which you will be formally submitting to the FRA for consideration is?
    Only one of the three counters can be a girl.
    Up the mighty Wharfedale 'arriers!

  2. #22
    Senior Member FellJunior's Avatar
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    Re: 2010 Championship

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    And doubled your lead if I'm not mistaken.
    Going downhill fast - until I fell over

  3. #23
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    Re: 2010 Championship

    A proportionally based system whereby the average position of runners from a club is used with a formula for working out girls results in a fair way but i'm only on a phone at the mo so il work out a fair formula tomorrow
    Trying to plod up hills every day slightly faster than the day before

  4. #24
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: 2010 Championship

    Quote Originally Posted by scott baistow 93 View Post
    James knox- English champ, bofra champ, national champ, county runner
    Ashley kay- English international, county runner.
    Jonny bradshaw-English international, Bofra champ, 2nd English champs,2nd Yorkshire champs
    Tom sessford- British u17 hill running champ, english uphill champ, Ex british champ, England international, county runner
    Tom doyle- England international, Kendal winter leauge champ, county runner
    Marc scott- one of Englands top xc-track runners, England international, county runner
    Joe Johnston- England international, lancs champ
    Tim Orr- England international
    Sean carey- Winner of many senior races
    Scott - most of the "successes" that you list are what I would call Big Fish in Small Ponds. I think the depth of quality is underlined by achievements away from fell. I could have also listed similar successes amongst the U18/U16 Girls today.
    James Knox is the only lad that could compare with Laura and Hannah in terms of National achievements.

    The highest quality lad I've seen on the fells in recent years was Josh Moody. He was super on the fells, but also on XC and track.

    Will it's fair point you make on post 19, but your original post seemed derogatory about the girls and I wanted to emphasise that in terms of quality at the front end of the race, the girls probably stack up better than most.

    Just bear this in mind - the "slower" lads in all age groups do not get exposed becuase they usually have some of the girls field around them. If you are a slower girl just think how "lonely" it could be at the tail end of the race.

    See the U16/U18 results from Coiners. The girls were seperated by 4.5 mins, the boys over 8 minutes.

    Look at the U14 race - do you think the young lady from Scarborough is going to stick with it? I hope she does. There may be a higher drop out in the boys if the races were run seperately and the lads at the back were similarly exposed.

    Just a thought - I actually applaud anyone, whaatever their ability, who is prepared to come out and take on these races.

  5. #25
    Senior Member FellJunior's Avatar
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    Re: 2010 Championship

    As discussed before, the new club championship replaces a particularly complicated one, which invariably only had one eligible boys team; the one with the most runners regardless of ability. Rarely was there an eligible girls team.
    Quote Originally Posted by WillMarsh View Post
    Only one of the three counters can be a girl.
    Apart from being vaguely mysogynistic, the effect of this suggestion on the current tables is to remove Blackburn from the leading positions despite one of their girls getting an outright 1st and 3rd in her age group. That doesn't equate with the inference that girls are lesser runners or don't try as hard. The effect on Scarborough, who have to travel a long way to the championship races (with apologies to James Waldie) is that they hardly feature in the tables at all. Not very encouraging. If Leigh could find a third runner, they still wouldn't be in the leading group despite Laura and Shannon's undeniable outstanding abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by TT
    A proportionally based system whereby the average position of runners from a club is used with a formula for working out girls results in a fair way
    Do not confuse complexity with improved fairness. What is the definition of fairness? Your own club winning?

    The purpose of the championship is to encourage clubs to consistently support the races i.e. all 6 rounds, and develop their runners. There is only one trophy awarded, so the winning club will have to have at least 3 runners at each race, and they will have to regularly finish in the top 5 or 6.
    I suggest we wait until the end of the year to consider whether this championship is indeed flawed. I think we may well find that the winning club also has the most successful and consistent runners in the individual championship.
    Quote Originally Posted by WP
    Just a thought - I actually applaud anyone, whatever their ability, who is prepared to come out and take on these races.
    I agree - 100%
    Last edited by FellJunior; 04-05-2010 at 10:40 AM.
    Going downhill fast - until I fell over

  6. #26

    Re: 2010 Championship

    Firstly, at least we have a club championship this year, so thanks for that.
    I don't think you can skew the results for age/sex as there will always be year on year anomalies in the numbers of participants.
    This years system does seem a little biased towards the top end - a fairer system would take account of the team contribution those runners who turn out race after race with no hope of a podium place, as WP says, 'whatever their ability'.
    So as a suggestion for discussion;
    Only runners with 4 or more races to count.
    Only clubs with 5(?) or more runners in the above category to count.
    Take the average of their positions/the number of runners.

  7. #27
    Senior Member FellJunior's Avatar
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    Re: 2010 Championship

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhead View Post
    Firstly, at least we have a club championship this year, so thanks for that.
    I don't think you can skew the results for age/sex as there will always be year on year anomalies in the numbers of participants.
    This years system does seem a little biased towards the top end - a fairer system would take account of the team contribution those runners who turn out race after race with no hope of a podium place, as WP says, 'whatever their ability'.
    So as a suggestion for discussion;
    Only runners with 4 or more races to count.
    Only clubs with 5(?) or more runners in the above category to count.
    Take the average of their positions/the number of runners.
    Your point on skewing the results highlights the main problem; the proportion of boy/girl runners changes, the numbers from a particular club can change dramatically from year to year, and so on. There is a great danger that the rules are written to suit the profile of a particular year, which can't be right.
    On your point of rewarding runners who turn out to all 6 races without gaining many points, they will receive an award in the individual championship. Basing the club championship on a relationship to the number of runners risks the pitfalls of the previous set of rules. When we trialled the new rules against recent years results, 3 runners to count at each round seemed the best compromise. Any more, and there were very very few eligible clubs. Any less and it became dominated by talented individuals, who weren't necessarily a product of their club coaching schemes.
    Using the individual points reflects the number of runners in each age group category, and is easier for me to work out
    Going downhill fast - until I fell over

  8. #28
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: 2010 Championship

    Maybe some of the fell clubs need to look at doing more to attract girls and keep them.

    It seems clear from the results that most of the girls are from multi discpline clubs rather than fell specialists. Not just ours, but Scarborough, Leigh, Wakefield, Stockport, Altincham, Lancaster & Morecambe, Warrington....

  9. #29

    Re: 2010 Championship

    I applaud your efforts to be as inclusive as possible FJ but I feel that you are still trying to build the competition to suit the circumstances and that three counters can still be dominated by talented individuals.
    My suggestion would have resulted in only 4 eligible clubs last year with even Wharfedale ruled out, in spite of their numbers, by having only 4 runners complete 4 or more races - which I think illustrates my point that a club competition should be about not just the best runners but also those who turn out with no hope of a medal, just to run for their club. At the end of the day it should be down to the clubs to motivate their runners to contest the championship rather than creating a championship to include as many clubs as possible.

  10. #30
    Senior Member FellJunior's Avatar
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    Re: 2010 Championship

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhead View Post
    I applaud your efforts to be as inclusive as possible FJ
    To be clear about my specific role; I maintain the championship points tables, but I have no formal input to the championship rules.
    However, this thread seems to be a debate between 'quality' and/or quantity. The latter on its own seems to have little merit for the purposes of a national championship, although of course it reflects club efforts. As I stated earlier, individuals are rewarded for competing in all 6 races.
    Inevitably, any rules will be a compromise, particularly as the profile of junior running is far more volatile than senior running.
    If clubs feel strongly about the club championship rules, they should approach the FRA committee. I can guarantee they will not respond to posts on this forum.
    Going downhill fast - until I fell over

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