Scafell Pike to Scafell

[Al Fowler]

Actually the reverse tends to be true: if there is fixed equipment that gives the impression of reduced risk you will get many more people attempting to try it who would otherwise self-regulate their behaviour because their skill set wasn't up to it. This leads to more accidents not less as the level of awareness about risks is reduced - "there's fixed gear/ladders/etc so it must be safe". Then there is the issue of who maintains the fixed items - what happens if it is damaged and someone is injured before anyone can repair the damage?

The current situation is self-regulating in that the difficulties and risks are well known and there are (two) alternatives. Last year persons unknown placed a couple of bolts on Broad Stand for whatever reason. These were removed by the leader of Wasdale MRT partly for the reasons I mention above but also that Broad Stand is the oldest recorded rock climb in Britain and the bolts were seen as an act of vandalism.

We can't make everything "safe" for everyone, it is up to everyone to assess the risks for themselves. That assessment includes recognising one's own weaknesses not just the difficulties of the ground.

Very true. And to further what you said about someone being injured.
Theres a chance if someone did get hurt the finger would be pointed at who to blame and who's responsability the 'ladder' would be. Quite a huge burden on somebodys should really isnt it.

[Joe]

Joe id say its no more difficult than chrome hill, thats rocky

I love rocks. Except when they're hurtling down towards me, or I'm trapped under one!

Apparently there was also a rockfall in the Foxes Tarn gully - see http://www.wasdale-mountain-rescue.o...20Sep%2007.htm

[IWCharters]

I have been up and down the gully in both dry and very wet conditions since the rockfall and with a bit of care it isn't any worse than it was before.

[Baggins]

I have been up and down the gully in both dry and very wet conditions since the rockfall and with a bit of care it isn't any worse than it was before.

Plus of course you can avoid the start of the gully be going up the left hand side.

Just goes to show foxes, broad stand or lords rake can all be dangerous its up to you to decide what is ok for you.

I haven't voted as it would depend on conditions as to which I'd use, wouldn't really know until stood at Mickledore

[Baggins]

Actually the reverse tends to be true: if there is fixed equipment that gives the impression of reduced risk you will get many more people attempting to try it who would otherwise self-regulate their behaviour because their skill set wasn't up to it. This leads to more accidents not less as the level of awareness about risks is reduced

Yes I read an article a few years ago on road safety that said seat belts would not save as many lives as a great big spike attached to the steering wheel pointed directly at the drivers heart would.

[wheezing donkey]

Yes I read an article a few years ago on road safety that said seat belts would not save as many lives as a great big spike attached to the steering wheel pointed directly at the drivers heart would.

Very true, Bill. Most "must have" safety devices just seem to re-assure the "idiotic element" that they can get away with a bit more idiocey.

[simon cox]

I am a climber so bear that in mind - Broadstand for me is only one move - you step up left onto an arete, a relatively straight forward move in the dry but as the hold you are stepping onto is slightly slopping not one to solo on a wet day. I dont know how much time Broadstand saves you but it has to be more than 10 mins I would have thought. The question is how important do you think that 10 mins may be. If you think it could be important I would go up there with a mate and check it out. I know on my next attempt I will be doing it this way but with a rope if the weather hasnt been fine for some time - when I soloed it in May on my last attempt despite a few dry hours before my ascent it was still wet and a little scary. Cheers,

[ydt]

The Foxes Tarn variant that uses the climbers traverse and a diagonal ascent that misses out the scree above the tarn is much better than Lord's Rake both in reascent and underfoot conditions.
ydt

[daz h]

The Foxes Tarn variant that uses the climbers traverse and a diagonal ascent that misses out the scree above the tarn is much better than Lord's Rake both in reascent and underfoot conditions.
ydt

Yiannis Id have to say I think you and me would do Lords Rake faster than foxes by a considerable margin. One problem with the high route above FT is that you have to know it or you can get it wrong. LR is straightforward, no going wrong there. Id suggest anyone who is doing the high travers over FT to recce it well.
Either that or get Emma to take you across. Oh and no bloody cairns on it please

[Baggins]

Yiannis Id have to say I think you and me would do Lords Rake faster than foxes by a considerable margin. One problem with the high route above FT is that you have to know it or you can get it wrong. LR is straightforward, no going wrong there. Id suggest anyone who is doing the high travers over FT to recce it well.
Either that or get Emma to take you across. Oh and no bloody cairns on it please

Good point, on my round Broad stand was soaking and I knew the Foxes via the climbers traverse would be as well so went via Lords Rake, a route I hardly go on due to the objective dangers.