Long runs - fast?

[Dynamo Dan]

I've been doing steady mileage exclusively all year because I'm trying to build a big base before doing speed/hill sessions as per Lydiard.

The LSR debate is a strange one because when you read Lydiard, who was supposedly responsible for this theory, he encourages runners to run at their best aerobic effort depending how they feel definitely not slowly.

For me this invariably means a steady run which gets faster at the end but still aerobic. The only 'slow' running I do is a gentle 3 miles with the dog each morning on top of my other training.

I haven't done any speed work or ran really fast during my long runs but I definitely feel fitter and faster. I imagine speed/hill sessions will just sharpen up this fitness ready for those short summer races.

[Twister]

I think if you are training for a half at some point you are going to have to run your "long run" at a decent pace. But, if you are training for a marathon in the mountains then absolutely LSR, means Long Slow Run. You need to get you body used to the "time on feet" and this has to be built up slowly, for your first races at this level you are looking to complete not compete, then the speed can come later.

You need to take a long view of your running else you will risk injuries.

So in your case, I would attempt the following session; go for a ten mile long run and for the first 5 miles go at a stupidly easy pace, just jog it with a big smile on your face. Then as soon as you hit 5 miles up your pace so you are running at a good steady "I feel like I'm running" type of effort all the way back home.

The idea behind this session is then to increase the fast bit by whatever you are comfortable with the next time, say 4 miles mega easy then 6 miles steady.

Try it! I've been experimenting with a version of this during my ultra training and its working well.

[Alexandra]

I'm pretty sure Alexandria is a very experienced runner anyway.

Thanks, Stolly, but I'm afraid I'm just a very old runner, hence my urgent quest for advice. Heartfelt thanks to everyone contributing - I'm finding your input really useful. I'm very tempted to engage in dialogue with each post one by one, but it would just take too long. Also it's bitter sweet getting all these useful suggestions, because just now I am struggling with the aftermath of a terrible cold that struck me down on 1st February and is still wrecking my attempts to train. My last attempt at a 12 mile long run ended in dnf after I had staggered ever more slowly through 6.

Personally, I find looking at my Garmin as I go along is very useful, as sometimes I can feel I'm running really well, but the Garmin shows that not. And vice versa. As for setting training zones, I can't imagine anything more depressing than hearing my Garmin bleeping away as I fail to run as fast as I think I should be able. Running at 60% of max is out for me, as I think my max is 165 so 60% would be 99bpm, which for me would be walking, and not fast walking either. 50% would be 82.5bpm = standing still! I think 75% = 123.75bpm is the lowest rate I should aim for (unless running downhill or walking on difficult terrain). Apologies to the HRM-phobes for these boring details.

Brooding on the one-pace nature of my running, I came across THIS ARTICLE. Could it be that running slowly (perforce) has led to low muscle tension in my legs which dooms me to more slow running? If I have understood correctly, 2 remedies for this condition are sprints and weight training. Well, if I can't run fast I can't do sprints, can I? But I did go to the gym this afternoon and spend an hour on my legs. I have previously feared doing this would have a detrimental effect on my run the next day, but who knows?

[Alexandra]

So in your case, I would attempt the following session; go for a ten mile long run and for the first 5 miles go at a stupidly easy pace, just jog it with a big smile on your face. Then as soon as you hit 5 miles up your pace so you are running at a good steady "I feel like I'm running" type of effort all the way back home.

The idea behind this session is then to increase the fast bit by whatever you are comfortable with the next time, say 4 miles mega easy then 6 miles steady.

Try it! I've been experimenting with a version of this during my ultra training and its working well.

I like it!

[Flopsy]

I think how you train will be dependant on your goal in the race. To finish or to be fast????

The last 2 LDWA events that I did (both at 23 miles) I did with very little training due to a long list of circumstances (in fact no training for the last one as I had been recovering from whiplash). I didn't run the races fast (5 hr mark) but I finished, which was my intention. Just to get out and do it. My times will improve when my training gets more sustained.

Now it could be argued that I've been fit since childhood (ish) and running distances for some time and therefore despite my lack of current training my muscle memory gets me through, as does the knowledge that I can stay the distance (beating the pschological barrier)....and sheer bloody mindedness. I don't know how true that is.

So if you just want to get round then stick to steady or slow runs. If you want to get faster then you have to learn to run faster. IMO what you can't do though is up the distance and the speed at the same time.

[Alexandra]

I think how you train will be dependant on your goal in the race. To finish or to be fast????

When I entered for the BBW the online form asked me what time I thought I would finish in. I had a look at the results, and the last person finished in around 3 hours, so that's what I put. I feel honour bound to try and keep to that, in order not to keep the poor volunteers waiting around too long. It's not like an LDWA event where walkers are expected to arrrive long after the runners, and indeed people running too fast can cause problems with checkpoints' opening times. In the BBW the walkers are in a separate event. I am quite sure I can run 13 miles - slowly. I was already up to 12 in training before my cold hit - but the question is whether I can get in under that 3 hours.

[Mike T]

Curious, isn't it - we enjoy running, but want to get it over with as quickly as possible!

[stevefoster]

Curious, isn't it - we enjoy running, but want to get it over with as quickly as possible!

Listen to the conversations in a race, don't like this bit, i'm crap uphill, don't like the downhills, this is agony. I'm a firm believer that doing something hard and moaning about it is good for the soul. Good observation Mike T:wink:

[stevefoster]

I think if you are training for a half at some point you are going to have to run your "long run" at a decent pace. But, if you are training for a marathon in the mountains then absolutely LSR, means Long Slow Run. You need to get you body used to the "time on feet" and this has to be built up slowly, for your first races at this level you are looking to complete not compete, then the speed can come later.

You need to take a long view of your running else you will risk injuries.

So in your case, I would attempt the following session; go for a ten mile long run and for the first 5 miles go at a stupidly easy pace, just jog it with a big smile on your face. Then as soon as you hit 5 miles up your pace so you are running at a good steady "I feel like I'm running" type of effort all the way back home.

The idea behind this session is then to increase the fast bit by whatever you are comfortable with the next time, say 4 miles mega easy then 6 miles steady.

Try it! I've been experimenting with a version of this during my ultra training and its working well.

Tried this, it works:thumbup:

[ZootHornRollo]

Listen to the conversations in a race, don't like this bit, i'm crap uphill, don't like the downhills, this is agony. I'm a firm believer that doing something hard and moaning about it is good for the soul. Good observation Mike T:wink:

you're absolutely right

although the last 2-3 miles of Wadsworth on Saturday, I genuinely didn't enjoy!