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Thread: Bad planning and the BG Circus

  1. #11
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    Re: Bad planning and the BG Ci

    Quote Originally Posted by dominion View Post
    If you want solo BG's recognised then go ahead and form your own club with your own rules. It would have no more or less legitimacy than any other Bob Graham Club, plus you can design your own tie?
    ....but with some contenders being openly navigated around the route, have not the rules, or at least the interpretation of them, already changed ....

  2. #12
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    Re: Bad planning and the BG Ci

    Definatley a thought provoking post by arcman100. No substitute for experience. Can't disagree with that. Hindsight does come into it though, it's part of becoming experienced.
    Hills and Guinness!

  3. #13
    Master ydt's Avatar
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    Re: Bad planning and the BG Ci

    arcman100 ....an elite runner, ...who has won races and .... completed the Bob Graham solo....bravo!!.
    I don't know who you are but you would certainly make a good preacher.
    Yiannis

  4. #14
    Master mr brightside's Avatar
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    Re: Bad planning and the BG Ci

    I understand Dakar Rally competitors have a phrase relating to risk and injury, it was mentioned in the aftermath of a rider's death in 2006- "C'est Dakar".
    Can't climb for toffee...

  5. #15
    Master Stef F's Avatar
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    Re: Bad planning and the BG Ci

    Ricky Lightfoot isn’t it?

    You have made some serious accusations publicly without contacting me to ascertain the facts. Your facts are largely incorrect and I request an apology.

    Your debate is a valid one but you should not have set me up for a public example and you have done nothing in the way of offering reasonable solutions to the points you raise.

    I will be starting a new thread for the purpose of giving people the opportunity to offer helpful and positive comments that may address some of the topical issues associated with the BGR. I hope this will help keep the challenge open to all and allow the club to continue to thrive in the spirit its founders and supporters intended.

    I have taken the trouble to answer only the points in your text which appear to be directed at me:

    Quote ‘The incident was a result of bad planning, poor mountaincraft and lack of collective and individual responsibility’. My two attempts were carefully planned. The planning started over a year ago. Health and safety were considered and all reasonable steps were taken. You know nothing of my mountain skills. The issue of responsibility is not one on which you are qualified to judge.

    Quote ‘I have accounts of the accident from two of the contenders’ support party who were there at the time of the accident, both of whom I know very well.’ In fact no one was with Nigel at the time of his accident as Nigel has clearly stated.

    Quote ‘Whist I discuss this particular Bob Graham attempt, I don’t want to single it out as being a one off’. You have done so.

    Quote ‘The fact is that there are far far too many of these thrown together attempts and it just happened to be this attempt that ended (it ended at the time of the accident as far as I’m concerned) badly. Don’t forget, the incident could have been a whole lot worse with the weather as it was; exposure couldn’t have been far off.’ The attempt was not thrown together. Nigel was not hypothermic and mountain rescue reached him in time. If the conditions had been worse they would have been called sooner. To say the attempt ended badly at the time of the accident is clearly a statement intended to hurt. The people you aim to hurt are Yiannis and I. There is no need for that.

    Quote ‘Many did not know the route’. This is incorrect.
    Quote ‘Many were relying on others to navigate for them and act as carriers and pacers’. This is incorrect

    Quote ‘Going into the fells at night, in horrendous weather with strangers is asking for trouble. Why would anyone do it?’ The weather was not horrendous when we set off, it did not become what could be described as horrendous until about half way round leg 2.

    Quote ‘Think about it. Only one of the group on Leg 1 (including the contender) knew the intricacies of the ‘Parachute route’.’ You do not know this as a fact. Your comment is at best misleading. I know the parachute route well enough to pick my way down carefully alone in the dark. That is as well as I needed to know it. Yiannis knows it intimately. Gav P came down it happily enough on my first attempt without complaint.

    Quote ‘but that navigator should ensure the group stays together, especially in weather conditions such as those. ‘That navigator’ is Yiannis and he deserves your respect. He was not responsible for the group staying together, he was there to navigate and he did it exceptionally well as always. The group is a team and everyone in it including Nigel had a responsibility. If Yiannis had fallen and become injured who then would you hold individually responsible? You are mistaken in your opinion.

    Quote ‘A decision to follow the straight forward path down the Hallsfell ridge should have been made. Hindsight doesn’t even come into it. I’ve never tried the route myself as Hallsfell can be dropped plenty quickly anyway, but having heard accounts of pals who have done it and are expertly capable of descending rough lake district hill sides at speed, it sounds awful.’ Again you show your lack of knowledge and information. There is no straightforward path down the top of Halls Fell. The upper section is rock and I know people have fallen down it (talented people like yourself). The parachute route was sheltered and is the least exposed and by far the safest route down in the weather we experienced. Nigel slipped. Had he slipped on Halls fell he might not have lived.

    Quote ‘OK, perhaps the weather last weekend was worse than forecasted.’ Yes in fact it was.
    Quote ‘but surely common sense must prevail? Peoples safety is of far more importance than completing a Bob Graham. Pull out, come back another day and don’t put people (strangers) at risk.’ It was not necessary to pull out; the weather was safe when we set off. It became wet and windy; not deadly. There were no strangers. There is no need to question my common sense.

    Quote ‘I’ve made the decision for people before to abandon in poor conditions – its not worth it. Hard lines if you’re from far flung parts of the country and have all the cost incursions to deal with. There are other weekends.’ You made that decision for people? Then perhaps you in all your wisdom should have contacted me. You claim to have an intimate knowledge of my planning and preparation (or your perceived lack of it). If you knew it was wrong for us to be out there you should have spoken up, not waited for the ‘accident waiting to happen’ to happen.

    Quote ‘Isn’t a requirement for membership of the Bob Graham Club to have someone with you to ratify the summit visit and encourage safety? You don’t know? Perhaps you should check.

    Quote ‘Does one person really need upwards of 8 people to act as carriers and morale boosters? Carrying one jelly baby each is it?’ There were not eight people to act as morale boosters and carriers. Some were there at their request to gain experience. They knew the route and knew what to expect. You of course would not approve of this.

    Quote ‘In my opinion, aspirant Bob Graham completers who feel they can call upon strangers to navigate them around the route in order to increase the credibility of their CV should be rethinking their approach. Risking peoples safety is not an option. Planning a Bob Graham round properly very much is.’ I trust it is not my CV to which you refer? I can assure you my two attempts were planned very carefully.
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  6. #16
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    Re: Bad planning and the BG Ci

    Arcman100 - That is the biggest bag of pompous self regarding sanctimonious crap I have had the misfortune to read in a very long time. It manages to cross the boundary to downright offensive when you take in to account the timing and specific reference to Stef's round and Nigel's accident. The round in question (I was to pace a later leg which never came about) was well supported by highly mountain experienced fell runners capable of independent judgement and navigation and entirely responsible for their own persons and Nigel has clearly confirmed his own qualifications and responsibility. It's hard to imagine who could claim greater qualification BGR wise than Morgan and Yiannis - that includes your safely anonymous ass no matter how elite a runner you may be (unless you're Billy Bland who I like to imagine as somewhat less of a prat and as having the cojones to name himself). Stef was a strong candidate with good fitness and plenty of recceing behind her. The implication that this was some sort of amateur and unsafe bumbling attempt is completely unfounded and you should apologise to Stef and her crew.

    I'm sure there are some debates to be had about conduct of BGRs but your approach and timing are deplorable as is your cowering behind an alias when posting this sort of ad hominem attack

    Paul Atkinson

    Editing to say I posted before seeing Stef's post - doesn't change owt I'm saying
    Last edited by paulo; 31-05-2011 at 10:39 PM.

  7. #17
    Grandmaster IanDarkpeak's Avatar
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    Re: Bad planning and the BG Ci

    wow where to start. well firstly I'm pretty sure it's not YT as Arcman is too friendly! and I'm pretty sure YT can't descend as quick as you did last week...( I think you name gives you away Arcman)

    Edit after Stefs post.... It seems I may be right...

    After supporting many times and my own 3 attempts before my completion and many supports since I think I can say that the general points in your original post are long overdue and have thought about a similar thread on near misses. However as with any politician picking a single incident is perhaps not the best way to start it off esp when it is so recent.

    I'd agree with around 90% of your post. Big groups do not help single runners get round, infact I believe they hinder it. There is more chance of an accident.
    I don't believe minute knowledge of the route is imperative but I do believe a high level of mountain craft is! Going out on the hills with strangers(or potential new friends) I don't have a problem with, Having them turn up with no priory knowlegde to Nav for you is as you put it an accident waiting to happen.

    Since you mention the attempt last week I can tell you that "she" is a seasoned MM campaigner and has completed many Ultras, I also believe she was a top junior Orienteer in her younger days. I offered to nav her first attempt as I knew her and believed her capable of completeing.

    As for the navigation, the most pertinent point you make is that EVERY contender and EVERY support person should be able to navigate themselves around the route and should be able to get themselves off the hill safely if necessary. However, where you are wrong, I believe, is to suggest that that is the responsibility of any other person in that group alone.
    (MR1470)
    I'd totally agree with the first part however some one should be "incharge enough" or take responsibilty to say "Thats it etc" not neccessarily the fastest or the strongest lets say the most experienced. many incidents occur as people egg each other on. But I'm sure we've all had a tough learning experience at some point, thats where we gain our knowledge from.

    What some times scares the hell out of me is people going on the hill with no map or bivvy etc. They expect to be led round, they think they are only there to carry food. Crazy!

    Whether there is a leader/navigator in a group or not every one in the group should be able to look after them selves. Map compass bivvy and the ability to use them + spare dry clothing are an absolute starting point for ANY trip in the mountains not least a BG attempt where you are suppose to be supporting.

    Marking any route well there's enough mention on this on other threads but I agree NO NO NO!

    Personally I don't like reccing the BG, A couple of trips is plenty on each leg possibly a third if you are not quite sure. doing each leg to death makes the day a trudge with nothing fresh to to excite the mind and adds to the erosion. I'd much rather be navigating round hills I've never seen other than on a map.

    Finally accidents do happen however experienced you are, I've seen plenty at first hand and they usually start with the smallest incidents of miscalculations fololowed by another and another until somthing snaps so to speak.

    There is a place for this thread but with out recriminations, As Arcman infers experience on the hills is paramount, lets use
    accidents to further that knowledge for all concerned
    Last edited by IanDarkpeak; 31-05-2011 at 11:20 PM.

  8. #18
    Grandmaster dominion's Avatar
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    Re: Bad planning and the BG Ci

    If the originator of this thread is Ricky Lightfoot then he doesn't seem to heed his own advice?

    http://www.salomonrunning.com/uk/blo...nter-bgr-.html

    Mind, given that he's a jogger coached by Ron Jeremy it's hardly surprising?

  9. #19
    Senior Member Mr1470's Avatar
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    Re: Bad planning and the BG Ci

    Quote Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak View Post
    I'd totally agree with the first part however some one should be "incharge enough" or take responsibilty to say "Thats it etc" not neccessarily the fastest or the strongest lets say the most experienced. many incidents occur as people egg each other on. But I'm sure we've all had a tough learning experience at some point, thats where we gain our knowledge from.

    What some times scares the hell out of me is people going on the hill with no map or bivvy etc. They expect to be led round, they think they are only there to carry food. Crazy!

    Whether there is a leader/navigator in a group or not every one in the group should be able to look after them selves. Map compass bivvy and the ability to use them + spare dry clothing are an absolute starting point for ANY trip in the mountains not least a BG attempt where you are suppose to be supporting.
    I think what I was trying to say IDP was that I don't see (at the moment anyway) that there is ever a designated person in charge. However, I would fully expect those with good mountain knowledge and, perhaps, mountain training to take on that role as necessary, depending upon conditions etc.

    If anyone is "in charge" at any stage, it should be the contender themselves prior to the big day, by ensuring that their support team is competent and has the necessary skills.

    As you say, too many head off without map, compass etc and expect to be led round. What happens if they can't keep up? What happens if the contender has to be led off the hill early and they're needed to go on to the next road stop?

    And clothing is my other gripe. I've heard of several attempts in the last couple of years that came to an early halt because the contender was getting cold and didn't have appropriate clothing. That's downright inexcusable. But the support shouldn't be blase either - it's a much slower pace than a lot are used to and you can get cold pretty quickly when you're high up on those fells.

    As we've both said, I think there IS a debate to be had here, and potentially some additional guidance to be issued because of the growing popularity of the BG.....it's just a shame Arcman introduced it in the way he did and it's therefore become a different thread.
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  10. #20
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    Re: Bad planning and the BG Ci

    I can't resist...

    Wouldn't tearing up "the list" and dissolving the Bob Graham 24 hour club remove a lot of the contentious issues surrounding the BG?

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