River crossings

[IanDarkpeak]

Well as my first post as a Grandmaster I thought I would come up with something meaty!!

THIS IS NOT AIMED AT ANY RO AS THEY ARE ALL WONDERFUL PEOPLE

I was planning on putting this on another thread but decided it would be best having it's own.

I've cut this off of the Great Lakes thread where i first put it

I'm not wanting to dampen all your comments(you 've all got wet enough by the sound of it ), it was obviously a great day out and looked on with fondness as a great adventure. but having read many posts about being bashed on rocks(I've read other reports on other sites) and being washed away and runners saying thanks for being pulled out would we then say it was a brave descision or a fool hardy one should some one have got pinned behind a rock etc. Don't get me wrong I'm not "having ago" at any one just mearly raising the issue. This isn't a comment about any race but about crossing fast moving water, esp when tired.
I know I've run through rivers even swam once on a Tanky's where if i'd been on a rescue we wouldn't cross at the risk of adding to the casualty count and if I'd been leading a group I certainly would never cross. We talk of it being a test of mountaincraft but to my mind that means knowing when to turn back not try our luck.

My Question is if you were on your own would you cross a fast flowing thigh deep stream in spate? now answer the same question if you were racing?

It's a genuine point and I'm sure I'm not the only one to think it.

[Hanneke]

My answer to you og Grandmaster: No and No! I don't like water and I don't like swimming, I would not risk it being swept off my feet, not even in a race... It is what made the OMM in 2008 such a hard one, water everywhere... and my partner didn't swim either!

[wheezing donkey]

I was faced with this very dilemma ( OK, from the opposite side of the fence ) only this afternoon. I was tasked with marshalling the river crossing between CP1 & CP2 of the Ras Y Berwyn. One of the organising team had left a coiled length of climbing rope on the bank "just in case". Having seen the CP2 & CP3 marshals go over knee deep when crossing the fast flowing water, I opted to rig a hand line between a tree on the near bank and a very sturdy stile on the far bank. The rope was there and it would have been too late to think about uncoiling and using it once someone had slipped and banged their head or been swept downstream. Better safe than sorry.
All but one of the 98 competitors used the handline; so I'm thinking that my judgement can't have been far off the mark?

[Rob Furness]

I've waded into rivers before, only to turn back after finding strong currents and feeling unwise. I'm not sure what I would do in a race situation though. Judgement is the key really, and not simply following the crowd.

[RaceTheSweeper]

How coincidental!! I popped down the lane to have a look at the river Derwent (in Bamford touchstone trail) this morning as I'm on a training run this morning. Edale to home via Mam Tor, Lose Hill, Win Hill. The river is right up and so fast it would certainly take our feet! In answer to your question it means an extra mile before getting to the back door :-). In a race I'm not a racing snake so the extra time going around or using a handrail would not make that much difference to my final place. Think it may be caution to the wind for the front runners who risk loosing the race though.

[Mike T]

Well as my first post as a Grandmaster I thought I would come up with something meaty!!

THIS IS NOT AIMED AT ANY RO AS THEY ARE ALL WONDERFUL PEOPLE

I was planning on putting this on another thread but decided it would be best having it's own.

I've cut this off of the Great Lakes thread where i first put it

I'm not wanting to dampen all your comments(you 've all got wet enough by the sound of it ), it was obviously a great day out and looked on with fondness as a great adventure. but having read many posts about being bashed on rocks(I've read other reports on other sites) and being washed away and runners saying thanks for being pulled out would we then say it was a brave descision or a fool hardy one should some one have got pinned behind a rock etc. Don't get me wrong I'm not "having ago" at any one just mearly raising the issue. This isn't a comment about any race but about crossing fast moving water, esp when tired.
I know I've run through rivers even swam once on a Tanky's where if i'd been on a rescue we wouldn't cross at the risk of adding to the casualty count and if I'd been leading a group I certainly would never cross. We talk of it being a test of mountaincraft but to my mind that means knowing when to turn back not try our luck.

My Question is if you were on your own would you cross a fast flowing thigh deep stream in spate? now answer the same question if you were racing?

It's a genuine point and I'm sure I'm not the only one to think it.

We were advised by the RO to cross in groups - I cannot remember his exact wording but it was my understanding at the time that we should physically be in contact with others, not just in their presence. If I had not been in a race or if I had been alone I would have turned upstream before crossing both the Esk and Lingcove Beck. As it happened I crossed the Esk in the presence of others - it was a bit deeper/faster flowing than I expected, but the bottom was not slippery - and crossing Lingcove Beck five of us formed a pentangle to cross - much safer. If I was doing it again I would definitely want to do it the second way for both crossings.

One if the biggest risks crossing streams is being unwilling to get wet at all and jumping across using slippery rocks - thus risking significant injury/total immersion or worse.

PS I should add that given the conditions I regarded this as a long wet day out in the hills rather than a race - in other words safety came first - but I am now looking at my route choices to see how I could do better next time ....

[Jez Hellewell]

The Kettlewell BOFRA starts & finishes with a splash through the river. But this year, due to high water levels, they ran on the road & over the bridge instead. Sensible decision !

[IanDarkpeak]

I was faced with this very dilemma ( OK, from the opposite side of the fence ) only this afternoon. I was tasked with marshalling the river crossing between CP1 & CP2 of the Ras Y Berwyn. One of the organising team had left a coiled length of climbing rope on the bank "just in case". Having seen the CP2 & CP3 marshals go over knee deep when crossing the fast flowing water, I opted to rig a hand line between a tree on the near bank and a very sturdy stile on the far bank. The rope was there and it would have been too late to think about uncoiling and using it once someone had slipped and banged their head or been swept downstream. Better safe than sorry.
All but one of the 98 competitors used the handline; so I'm thinking that my judgement can't have been far off the mark?

Using ropes is a good subject to add to the discussion Ian.

I know of your pedigree WD but what of the rope? I suspect it won't be some climbers new rope! or the anchors? was it a static line or dynamic? was it a floating rope? Rope loses alot of the strength when wet. 6 runners hanging on to it one slips and pulls the rope hard, it knocks some one over, is there another rope further down stream if the system fails? would you have entered the water if there wasn't a rope, so does this give you extra confidence to enter a river you probably wouldn't have.
Who's responsible should the rope snap or anchor fail. I'm not after a nanny state but just making people aware.

We were advised by the RO to cross in groups - I cannot remember his exact wording but it was my understanding at the time that we should physically be in contact with others, not just in their presence. If I had not been in a race or if I had been alone I would have turned upstream before crossing both the Esk and Lingcove Beck. As it happened I crossed the Esk in the presence of others - it was a bit deeper/faster flowing than I expected, but the bottom was not slippery - and crossing Lingcove Beck five of us formed a pentangle to cross - much safer. If I was doing it again I would definitely want to do it the second way for both crossings.

One if the biggest risks crossing streams is being unwilling to get wet at all and jumping across using slippery rocks - thus risking significant injury/total immersion or worse.

I agree with that Mike, also I may have worded the first post badly. I'm talking about streams/rivers in general rather than pointing at a paticular race.

There was a big rescue on Scafell over the weekend after some some walkers got lost on a 3 peaks, they were found below the corridor route but made to walk over lingmell as all other routes were deemed un safe, this is a rescue team with lots of kit and experience, yet 3 peakers were fording the streams! a lack of mountain craft or pressured by the event?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JmXr...ature=youtu.be

[LissaJous]

PS I should add that given the conditions I regarded this as a long wet day out in the hills rather than a race - in other words safety came first - but I am now looking at my route choices to see how I could do better next time ....

So the remaining question is, is that appropriate for a Championships 'Race', where people feel pressured to run, and it has 300 competitors instead of 30 if people had been using their usual judgement? In some ways the added numbers make it safer, perhaps, but it's not really a race as such! The same w.r.t. river crossings ~ normally you wouldn't, yesterday a lot of people would... I took what I interpreted to be an instruction from marshals to use the footbridge at the end, and was very concerned that Helen or Holly would appear down the hill meantime! Even more so as they'd establised the rope by the time I got back!

Amusingly, last weekend I was reprimanded by a fireman for paddling through this on my mini 'Ultra Tour of Tal-y-bont'!
Attachment 6172

[ydt]

... I've run through rivers even swam once on a Tanky's where if i'd been on a rescue we wouldn't cross at the risk of adding to the casualty count ...
... I suspect it won't be some climbers new rope! ...
... I'm not after a nanny state but ...


Confusing messages, Ian DP! Yiannis