Who would they blame or not presumablyOriginally Posted by Witton Park
Who would they blame or not presumably
"Moors are a stage for the performance of heaven"
Would you not say that XC rules/courses/distances are archaic though? For example, can anyone give me a sensible reason for why in the West Yorkshires (or Yorkshire champs or Nationals for that matter) the girls run shorter distances than the boys and perhaps even more puzzling why the ladies race is shorter than the mens?
I know that some of the Ladies in our club find it a bit patronising that they are deemed to be only able to run half the distance the men can and so it's often difficult to raise teams.
It's to make the men feel good and not get beaten by the ladies.
Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to run
and there was I thinking it was because the women are the weaker sex - also if they do less distance or what ever the event may be, they will actually finish quicker and be able to return to the kitchen and get the meal ready for the men returning home from a proper race !! lol
Only joking before I get accusations thrown at me !!
Paul C.
... continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.
Interesting about youngsters. I fully understand the need for the rules set, a young person's development is very fragile and can be damaged by overdoing it. Of course, there will always be the odd youngster who has been running off-road for quite a while, has developed necessary muscles and could do the race....but the rules have to be set for the majority.
Here's an interesting question though...what do you do if, having refused entry to a race to a junior, they turn up anyway and decide to run the course?!? It's a free country and we can't really stop them....but do you then feel some (any) responsibility for their safety?
Archaic yes perhaps but they have been changed over recent years as Mrs WPette rarely ran a XC race as a junior that went over 8 mins in the late 70s when Male and Female meetings were apart - they must have been 1500m - 2km in distance even at 16/17 years of age. But there are some reason for this seemingly archaic system and some exceptions. This weekend is a prime example at the Liverpool Cross Challenge which combines with the Mid Lancs XC and Liverpool District League.
The Cross Challenge in terms of trials for U20 and Sen age groups is a trial for IAAF Champs races and so the distances reflect that - and that's probably reflected to some extent in the Championship Distances throughout our country.
That means that U20W in the Cross Challenge will run around 4.5k but those that stick to the Mid Lancs will run in the Senior Ladies race which is 8K.
It's similar with the Men where the U20M trial is 8K and the U20M in the Mid Lancs will run 10K
Now to the leagues.
We have maximum distances that age groups can run - if you go further then you don't get a permit or invalidate you insurance as a RO perhaps.
RULE 508 MAXIMUM DISTANCES
Age Group Maximum Distance
Male/Female
Under 13 years 3500 metres
Under 15 years 5000 metres
Under 17 years 6500 metres
Under 20 years 10000 metres
Seniors Unlimited
So from that you can see that there isn't any reason why races can't be over their current distances - in fact the old National XC Distance used to be around 15km (before my time - for men)
But where the problem lies I think is in timetabling. Take the U20 Men.
We normally have 5 - 10 in any particular league race that I'm involved in so we cannot have just an U20 race. We used to have the run in the main field of a Senior Mid Lancs when the Mid Lancs races were over 10K, often 11K. That was silly, as sometimes the U20 was winning the overall race, but we had to keep them under 10K so they had to come in a lap early, which when a big lap meant maybe only 7K in tota.
So we integrated the U20s in to the Seniors, so they can not complete the full race, take the win if good enough and some are and also be part of the Senior team as the VETs are as most U20s would never complete a team in a XC event.
The consequence of that is that Mid Lancs Senior Mens Races are not allowed to go over 10K - same with the Red Rose.
That same conundrum affects the ladies, where the U20 and U17W are usually in the same race and that is a limiting factor.
So let's see what we could do under the current rules to get closer to maximum distance for all and it's effect, using the Red Rose as an example.
Currently, if I host a Red Rose at Witton, I am down at 8:00am and leave around 5:00pm - that's start of the course building and then the taking down with all the races etc in between and the races run from 12:30 to 2:15 in terms of start time - slowest men come in around 3:30pm.
So let's assume we increase the U13, U15 race to max distance, that will add another 10 minutes to the timetable at least.
U17s can run 6.5 which would be around 10 minutes longer but we would have to run their own race and separate the Senior Women if the Seniors Women are going to get "unlimited".
U20 W and U20M could go in a 10K race, that would be 15 kids running round like lost sheep for 35 - 55 minutes and then the Senior Race would start in light and finish in dark, assuming we put Men and Women together.
You can perhaps see the difficulties of the timetabling. We cannot start earlier as the course builders would be setting up for 2 hours in the dark and starting at 6:00am and we cannot go later for the same reason - except athletes would also be in the dark.
It has to be said that I run 10K XC races and after 4 laps that' enough for me as well, a 5th or 6th to make it 12 or up to 15K just wouldn't appeal and I think that would put of many of the club runners and Vets that make league cross country what it is.
One last thing, the Liverpool League is a senior league and I think they then have the flexibility to run male and female together and you will see ladies in the Mens 10K race at Liverpool on Saturday, who are part of this Liverpool league.
That couldn't happen at most Mid Lancs and Red Rose venues as they aren't big enough to support over 400 runners that you could potentially have.
War and Peace as usual
But hopefully some sort of explanation as to how and why we have the current set up.
It happens and I have sanctioned that very selectively.
My daughter has a training run she has done since 13 over the Winter Warmer 10K course and when 16 she ran alongside her Mum, without a number. She joined the race after around 400m and left the race 200m from the end.
It was a training run on a route she regularly runs on her own and I made the judgement that she may as well just do her run within the race field and get the experience.
I think if it is done with care, it is OK. I hasten to add the UKA allows 15 year olds to run 10Ks as well and that the RO had made it minimum age 17.
Now for last year and next they are 15. http://www.ukresults.net/12feb.html#warmer
She wasn't in the race, impeding anyone, I wouldn't put her on the start line for example or have her run through the finish.
A few years ago again, we arrived at the Hutton Roof race when it was Inter Counties to do the junior race, but due to a pile up on the M6 at Preston lost an hour and arrived about 5 minutes too late.
She ran the senior route as a training run, joined the race as the back after 300m and pottered round and dropped out 300m from the end.
Happy as a pig in mud in both instances and learnt from running in those fields and on those routes.
Thanks for the reply WP - very thorough answer. I guess I had not thought about it from the RO's point of view with regards to timings etc.
The local club league that my club runs in (Peco) has combined junior races (a 1 mile and a 2mile) and then a combined senior race (~5mile), so I guess that's more what I'm used to, rather than the larger leagues like the Red Rose or West Yorkshires, where you have many different age groups.
Mind you, the WYXC league doesn't help itself - the first junior race doesn't start until 11:45, meaning the senior men don't race until 2.15pm. For me, that's far too late. I don't quite see why they can't start at 10 (even with marking the course out etc), so that the senior race could start by 12.30, which whilst still late, is better than flipping 2 in the afternoon and it then doesn't take your whole day out.
It surely can't be travelling time, because we used to play junior hockey on a sunday morning and had to get to Ilkley for 9 or 9.30 (often in Jan or Feb) - it made for an early start when you've got to travel from Sheffield.
It depends on the league of course, but at Witton we have a course that requires about 3.5km of course marking and as I mentioned that takes a good 2 - 3 hours. From what I know of most courses that's typical marking for league standards.
So starting at 10 isn't an option as you can't have the first runners on the start line ready to run and the final metres of tape is being applied.
The earliest I would suggest is around 11:30am for leagues where in our leagues they are travelling to Witton from as far away as Southern Scotland in the case of Border Harriers and West Cumbria as well.
County Champs is earlier, and we start that at 11:00am I think, but I'm down at 7:00 for that.
Northern Champs and we build the day before as it's a full day of a job and we hire security now to keep the scroats off at night.
I don't think there is anything you can do there, just ask them to avoid the finishing funnel. The bottom line is its kids who want to run, which is brilliant obviously, so there should be a balance between encouraging them and looking after them whilst protecting the sport. You don't want to threaten them with bans and the such like or expose them to the bureaucracy of the sport; which admittedly may be necessary at some levels but I think we should let kids get as old as possible before letting them know that running isn't just about running..
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