ripoff for new boiler

[Marco]

Instead, electric-powered heat pumps would become mandatory, despite the fact that they cost, on average, €17,000 more to install than a regular boiler – even when government subsidies are taken into account. What’s more, this cost was to be imposed on a nation that is already reeling from a major energy crisis, where household bills are among the highest in Europe and where critical industries are closing down due to exorbitant energy costs."

I have no idea how German suppliers have managed to inflate their prices by that much; they makes ours look like amateurs. Someone I know is currently upgrading to an air-source heat pump-powered central heating system for their old, large (1650 sq ft), detached house. New boiler, at least 10 radiators to replace, and all the rest of it - £10900. Take off the Gov grant of £7500, and it's £3400 fitted and running.

The 22% threshold will rise progressively until 2030 when it will reach 80%.

This sounds like HIP (Home Information Pack); the Government mandate that no-one bothered with, and was scrapped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_I...January%202012.

In view of the fact that the percentage of EVs sold fell slightly last year (16.5% from 16.6%), it looks like the public will stick two fingers up to this, and any Government trying to implement it.

Whilst some foolish people (although not all) buy heat pumps tempted by the bribe of barrow loads of cash this alternative approach is - to say the least - interesting for a democratic, etc society.

Events of the last few years have shown we don't live in a democratic society; we live in a elected dictatorship, where those paid to serve us inflict their stupid rules and laws on us - whilst personally not adhering to them.

[Gambatte]

I have no idea how German suppliers have managed to inflate their prices by that much; they makes ours look like amateurs. Someone I know is currently upgrading to an air-source heat pump-powered central heating system for their old, large (1650 sq ft), detached house. New boiler, at least 10 radiators to replace, and all the rest of it - £10900. Take off the Gov grant of £7500, and it's £3400 fitted and running.

Germany here.
When we built our 1200 sq. feet house in 2019, the construction company made us chose between gas heating and heatpump. Everything else identical (also house insulation of course). Cheapest heatpump (air source, which is also the least efficient) would have pushed the construction cost up by 30k. We opted for gas (I now regret it, but not for financial reason though, but sorry too late).

No long ago, heating installer told us replacing now our gas with heatpump would cost a total of 40k. This includes labor (1week 2guys, so ca 35*8*5*2 = 3k, and material (40k-3k = 37k). Not sure if this already includes the 3k (or was it 5k?) grant from the German government, but that wouldn't really change the story.

Some mysteries:
1) why the hell are heatpums so astronomically expensive? The installer said "because it's a modern technology". No way I believe that, the cost is like 3x new cars.... Oh, and it's not he wanted to rip us off: he even told us if we want him to fit it right now too much demand, join the queue and wait minimum 18 months...
2) OK, Germany and UK are different countries, but still... after I was quoted 40k, I find hard to believe one can have that for 11k in the UK.

[Gambatte]

Whilst some foolish people (although not all) buy heat pumps tempted by the bribe of barrow loads of cash this alternative approach is - to say the least - interesting for a democratic, etc society.

If I had to chose now I would have a heatpum rather than gas, for enviromental reason, with full knowledge this would cost me more money.

[Gambatte]

I have some friends who live in a Swedish wood-framed house, imported and built in the 1990s. The house relies on a heat exchange system and triple glazing and is extremely energy efficient. They have a back-up mains gas CH system, but rarely need to use it (theY live in mid-Wales).

The system works like this. The solar heat from the triple glazing warms the interior of their home, even in winter, and with the house being effectively hermetically sealed (expensive high quality doors and window seals), the warm air in the house (also warmed by bodies) goes to a heat exchanger in the roof space (electric pump) that A. warms the cold air being sucked into the house, by using the warm air going out, and B. also dehumidifies the warm air too. Very effective and widely used in Sweden and Germany (see Haf Haus), but relatively expensive. No heat pumps needed, but could presumedly be utilised too.

Other friends live in the midlands and 30 years ago started to build eco-project of highly insulated, only solar heated, terrace houses. No electricity needed, but again they rely on triple glazing (from a Swedish company). They visited us this summer, but they too have over the years trialled a series of heat pumps as their centre has an experimental eco-engineering element/consultancy (including to major house building UK companies) and shared their thoughts with us. They didn't generally recommend heat pumps for most GB homes either for all of the above reasons.

Nobody care more than me about not wasting resources and burning less fossils rather than more but sorry I will never believe what you wrote. Not that I think you're lying, but could it be you misunderstood the concept...?
Here in Germany every house built in the last 15yr or so, including mine, has triple glazing. And yet, they all need to have their form of heating, gas or heatpump. The amount of sun reaching the window is incredibly modest. Simple as that.
Solar heat? What solar heat in winter? Sorry it just doesn't exist. My whole roof is covered with photovoltaic, 29 of them. And there are winter days when they produce a massive 0.1kWh of energy. And our gas usage is ca 8000 kWh/yr (this is a quarter of houses same size built 40yr ago: a quarter, not a quarter less), 80% of which is in the 3 coldest months. So a typical winter day we use 8000 * 0.8 / 90 = 71kWh of gas, against the 0.1 kWh of photovoltaic we produce.
I know of course you wrote solar heat from the triple glazing warms the interior of their home, and not photovoltaic, but the thing is the same: in winter the sun is simply too little.
Oh, and we also have a big heat-recovery monster thingy sitting in the utility too, it controls the air exchange supposedly taking heat from the warm indoor air before this is let out. Costed 7k. Plus maintenance and electricity. How good of a job it does I can't tell.

[Witton Park]

Some great promotional work for gas combi boilers

[Marco]

Some great promotional work for gas combi boilers

?

[Mossdog]

Nobody care more than me about not wasting resources and burning less fossils rather than more but sorry I will never believe what you wrote. Not that I think you're lying, but could it be you misunderstood the concept...?
Here in Germany every house built in the last 15yr or so, including mine, has triple glazing. And yet, they all need to have their form of heating, gas or heatpump. The amount of sun reaching the window is incredibly modest. Simple as that.
Solar heat? What solar heat in winter? Sorry it just doesn't exist. My whole roof is covered with photovoltaic, 29 of them. And there are winter days when they produce a massive 0.1kWh of energy. And our gas usage is ca 8000 kWh/yr (this is a quarter of houses same size built 40yr ago: a quarter, not a quarter less), 80% of which is in the 3 coldest months. So a typical winter day we use 8000 * 0.8 / 90 = 71kWh of gas, against the 0.1 kWh of photovoltaic we produce.
I know of course you wrote solar heat from the triple glazing warms the interior of their home, and not photovoltaic, but the thing is the same: in winter the sun is simply too little.
Oh, and we also have a big heat-recovery monster thingy sitting in the utility too, it controls the air exchange supposedly taking heat from the warm indoor air before this is let out. Costed 7k. Plus maintenance and electricity. How good of a job it does I can't tell.

I genuinely appreciate your scepticism. But first, watch this and it'll explain how and why solar heating alone can work for heating housing(just 7 mins).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i1ECCa9u6g&t=319s

I was there with my friends at the very beginning of this project, even before the first spade was sunk, so to speak. They were living in a static caravan initially. I too, while willing to lend a hand with some of the land preparation, had grave doubts about its feasibility. And, once it was finished, wished them well for their first winter. I shouldn't have doubted them. It was marvellous. I've visited and stayed over on multiple occasions now, and while the semi-commune type living and some of their values aren't wholly my own, I salute what they have achieved.

For more detail see:https://www.hockertonhousingproject....mes/new-build/

And yes, they have extensively tested a wide range of air-source heat pumps over the years and have been dissatisfied with all of them, as failing to deliver the promised efficiencies. That's not to say at some future date the technology might improve, perhaps. But, as they say 'if wishes were horses, beggars would ride'!

As I think I wrote elsewhere, some other friends live in mid-Wales, in a triple-glazed Swedish wood framed house, and while the solar gain isn't of the same magnitude as the Hockerton terraces, they rarely use their gas-central heating in winter, except for the occasional prolonged cold snaps. It is in Wales of course, so relatively milder weather.

[Mossdog]

Nobody care more than me about not wasting resources and burning less fossils rather than more but sorry I will never believe what you wrote. Not that I think you're lying, but could it be you misunderstood the concept...?
Here in Germany every house built in the last 15yr or so, including mine, has triple glazing. And yet, they all need to have their form of heating, gas or heatpump. The amount of sun reaching the window is incredibly modest. Simple as that.
Solar heat? What solar heat in winter? Sorry it just doesn't exist. My whole roof is covered with photovoltaic, 29 of them. And there are winter days when they produce a massive 0.1kWh of energy. And our gas usage is ca 8000 kWh/yr (this is a quarter of houses same size built 40yr ago: a quarter, not a quarter less), 80% of which is in the 3 coldest months. So a typical winter day we use 8000 * 0.8 / 90 = 71kWh of gas, against the 0.1 kWh of photovoltaic we produce.
I know of course you wrote solar heat from the triple glazing warms the interior of their home, and not photovoltaic, but the thing is the same: in winter the sun is simply too little.
Oh, and we also have a big heat-recovery monster thingy sitting in the utility too, it controls the air exchange supposedly taking heat from the warm indoor air before this is let out. Costed 7k. Plus maintenance and electricity. How good of a job it does I can't tell.

I genuinely appreciate your scepticism. But first, watch this and it'll explain how and why solar heating alone can work for heating housing(just 7 mins).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i1ECCa9u6g&t=319s

I was there with my friends at the very beginning of this project, even before the first spade was sunk, so to speak. They were living in a static caravan initially. I too, while willing to lend a hand with some of the land preparation, had grave doubts about its feasibility. And, once it was finished, wished them well for their first winter. I shouldn't have doubted them. It was marvellous. I've visited and stayed over on multiple occasions now, and while the semi-commune type living and some of their values aren't wholly my own, I salute what they have achieved.

For more detail see:https://www.hockertonhousingproject....mes/new-build/

And yes, they have extensively tested a wide range of air-source heat pumps over the years and have been dissatisfied with all of them, as failing to deliver the promised efficiencies. That's not to say at some future date the technology might improve, perhaps. But, as they say 'if wishes were horses, beggars would ride'!

As I think I wrote elsewhere, some other friends live in mid-Wales, in a triple-glazed Swedish wood framed house, and while the solar gain isn't of the same magnitude as the Hockerton terraces, they rarely use their gas-central heating in winter, except for the occasional prolonged cold snaps. It is in Wales of course, so relatively milder weather.

[Mossdog]

Nobody care more than me about not wasting resources and burning less fossils rather than more but sorry I will never believe what you wrote. Not that I think you're lying, but could it be you misunderstood the concept...?
Here in Germany every house built in the last 15yr or so, including mine, has triple glazing. And yet, they all need to have their form of heating, gas or heatpump. The amount of sun reaching the window is incredibly modest. Simple as that.
Solar heat? What solar heat in winter? Sorry it just doesn't exist. My whole roof is covered with photovoltaic, 29 of them. And there are winter days when they produce a massive 0.1kWh of energy. And our gas usage is ca 8000 kWh/yr (this is a quarter of houses same size built 40yr ago: a quarter, not a quarter less), 80% of which is in the 3 coldest months. So a typical winter day we use 8000 * 0.8 / 90 = 71kWh of gas, against the 0.1 kWh of photovoltaic we produce.
I know of course you wrote solar heat from the triple glazing warms the interior of their home, and not photovoltaic, but the thing is the same: in winter the sun is simply too little.
Oh, and we also have a big heat-recovery monster thingy sitting in the utility too, it controls the air exchange supposedly taking heat from the warm indoor air before this is let out. Costed 7k. Plus maintenance and electricity. How good of a job it does I can't tell.

I genuinely appreciate your scepticism. But first, watch this and it'll explain how and why solar heating alone can work for heating housing(just 7 mins).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i1ECCa9u6g&t=319s

I was there with my friends at the very beginning of this project, even before the first spade was sunk, so to speak. They were living in a static caravan initially. I too, while willing to lend a hand with some of the land preparation, had grave doubts about its feasibility. And, once it was finished, wished them well for their first winter. I shouldn't have doubted them. It was marvellous. I've visited and stayed over on multiple occasions now, and while the semi-commune type living and some of their values aren't wholly my own, I salute what they have achieved.

For more detail see:https://www.hockertonhousingproject....mes/new-build/

And yes, they have extensively tested a wide range of air-source heat pumps over the years and have been dissatisfied with all of them, as failing to deliver the promised efficiencies. That's not to say at some future date the technology might improve, perhaps. But, as they say 'if wishes were horses, beggars would ride'!

[Mossdog]

"Solar heat? What solar heat in winter? Sorry it just doesn't exist."

Just to clarify how it works. The solar heat is stored over the course of the whole year, building up considerably in the summer, and stored in the 'bulk' of the fabric of the building - the concrete (yes, not very green') which is super insulated by synthetic materials and the earth bank. In colder weather, such as over the winter, this heat is released gradually into the building's interior. On some sunny days in winter it is topped up (even when cloudy, as when you sit in a triple glazed conservatory, you'll observe). Before their first winter they included the option for small wood-burning stoves (just in case). These were never needed.

If you're over here - go and visit. They do 'tours' for interested individuals and also for housing companies, universities, etc.