What good would an ice axe be if your running, your not able to use it as a walking support in your leading hand because your running, and unless you know how to self arrest then it would be practically useless, and running with an axe seems to me a touch dangerous.
Personally if you feel the need to have an ice axe then you should most likely not run but just walk, and stick to hills that if you fall theres no danger of sliding your way down the hill, unless am missing something.
Last edited by The-Big-Gray-Man; 07-12-2011 at 11:23 AM.
I think you are taking the running bit a bit literal.Originally Posted by The-Big-Gray-Man
If you are "running" a leg of the BG and it's plastered in snow ice you would have an ice axe, try going up Billys rake in winter or clough head or Steel fell or Scafell etc. Similarly in Scotland or Wales, steep ground walking or running needs an axe. If you were sticking to a flat open moor then yes I agree you don't need one.
If you are "running" a leg of the BG and it's plastered in snow ice you would have an ice axe, try going up Billys rake in winter or clough head or Steel fell or Scafell etc. Similarly in Scotland or Wales, steep ground walking or running needs an axe. If you were sticking to a flat open moor then yes I agree you don't need one.[/QUOTE]
Went up billys rake last winter with walking axe in hand. Would not have wanted to do it without. I carry it so I can self arrest a slip, also chop a step or two when needed to save me putting on my mirco spikes. Had my axe out far more often than I had my micro spikes on over the last two winters. In the mountains an axe is more of a requirement than crampons I think.
Your feet are your points of contact with the ground so i would say microspikes or orocs are far more essential, true if your running up the Carn mor Dearg Arete on Ben Nevis then an ice axe would be useful. But for most hill running in the uk, in winter an Ice axe is not needed.
IMHO crampons/kahtoolas or whatever are intended to stop you slipping and falling on icy ground. Thats fine, they are pretty good at doing this but they dont always work - you can trip over your own feet easily enough for example. But when (rather than if) you do slip if you are on bad ground an axe is going to be needed to arrest your fall, and it will only work if you know how to use it and have practised. An axe is also very useful for ascending steeper ground - I'm not talking ice climbing here, but just as another point of security on some steeper sections, or even to cut a few steps.
I rate my kahtoolas, as I have said on another thread about them but the danger is that they give a false sense of security because you do find yourself romping across icy ground with confidence, so I think in a lot of circumstances an axe is worth taking as well - but its always going to be a judgement call.
I disagree... an axe was developed before crampons too.... with an axe you can cut steps.. with crampons any failure and you are screwed.. yes axe's do break, plenty of climb names testify to that, but its much rarer than crampon failure, crampons coming off, balling up etc... I've had crampons come off a few times.. in fact when I did central gully on Ben Lui I ended up just kicking in with plastics and using double axes as I thought that was safer than wearing crampons I didn't trust, as so many had done it that day it ended up a walk in the park..
Look at Snowdon and the Llanberis path, the killer convex as one section is known, a seemingly benign section of path which has led to the death of a number of walkers recently.
If fell running in a mountainous area like Snowdonia, the Lakes or the Highlands I think it would be foolish to not have an axe with you unless you know your route and can all but guarantee its safety. A mates dad once was glissading down a gully in glencoe and didn't arrest in time before a patch of hard neve and took off... honestly his arse was black the next day as he went straight into scree poking out of ice hard neve... he was lucky he didn't break his femur.. its incredible how much speed you get within a few metres..
I think that's the main point, the false sense of security.. plus microspikes being used in unsuitable locations...
The spikes are very useful and I have often used them but always have an axe with me too. I slot it between me and the rucksac and can easily whip it out when needed. Its often just to cross a patch of neve (where a slip wouldnt be nice), i dont have to stop to put spikes on, i have the security of the axe to arrest a slip, and I can pop it away again without stopping. I will stop to put the spikes on, but only if its very steep and/or icy. I wouldnt be happy with just spikes (in the mountains anyway).
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